Does the Church condemn socialism ?

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I found this in the Catechism
  1. The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.”
Does that mean the Church condemns socialism or just some of the atheistic ideologies associated with socialism?
 
I found this in the Catechism
  1. The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.”
Does that mean the Church condemns socialism or just some of the atheistic ideologies associated with socialism?
Actually, if you read the whole paragraph, you’ll see something interesting…both socialism and unfettered capitalism are condemned. Observe:
CCC 2425:
The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
 
If you read the whole paragraph, you get a better picture. Attend:
CCC-2425:
The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
Now, if you break it down, you see what’s going on. First, the Church condemns aspects of socialism (italics). Then, she condemns aspects of capitalism (underline).

CCC 2425 said:
The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
 
The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
The Catechism clearly states that capitalism, in which the regulation of the marketplace with a view to the common good is to be commended. This is what this country has tried to do, though not perfectly, by prohibiting child labor, prohibiting monopolies, preventing dangerous working conditions, etc. Thus, capitalism is approved by the Church, as long as there is not absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.

My question is concerning socialism. Is any form of socialism not condemned?
In other words , we know all forms of communism demand atheism, thus communism is always condemned. But are all forms of socialism basically evil because they deny the right of individuals to own private property, or because they promote theft by demanding the redistribution of wealth, from certain individuals just because they have wealth? In other words, is socialism always condemned because it promotes theft, or, if some forms promote only partial theft, are they permitted?
 
If you read the whole paragraph, you get a better picture. Attend:

Now, if you break it down, you see what’s going on. First, the Church condemns aspects of socialism (italics). Then, she condemns aspects of capitalism (underline).
Actually not. If you read it it condemns certain practices under the guise of capitalism.,
She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.
There has been no known society that has done what the Church condemns. Certain econmists, yes, but no society has ever put what was condemned into practice.

There have always been laws and regulations that have superceded the law of the marketplace. Hence the marketplace has never been absolute.
 
Actually not. If you read it it condemns certain practices under the guise of capitalism.,

There has been no known society that has done what the Church condemns. Certain econmists, yes, but no society has ever put what was condemned into practice.

There have always been laws and regulations that have superceded the law of the marketplace. Hence the marketplace has never been absolute.
And yet, it is the ideological position of many people that the rule of the marketplace MUST be absolute and oppose regulating any aspects of business. That’s just a reality that we all must deal with.

I tend towards a strong enforcement regime of reasonable regulations that benefit the weakest among us on a priority basis. In other words, those with the least power and money get the most help and those with the most power and money get the least help. The priority is to fulfill what Bl. John XXIII said in Mater et Magistra:
Mater et Magistra ¶20:
As for the State, its whole raison d’etre is the realization of the common good in the temporal order. It cannot, therefore, hold aloof from economic matters. On the contrary, it must do all in its power to promote the production of a sufficient supply of material goods, “the use of which is necessary for the practice of virtue.” It has also the duty to protect the rights of all its people, and particularly of its weaker members, the workers, women and children. It can never be right for the State to shirk its obligation of working actively for the betterment of the condition of the workingman.
I ask for nothing more and nothing less than what the Holy Father asked for. 🙂
 
I found this in the Catechism
  1. The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.”
Does that mean the Church condemns socialism or just some of the atheistic ideologies associated with socialism?
Good question. I think it’s clear that the athiestic ideologies are condemned, however, there is not one single type of socialism…at least in practice.

If we look at Scripture, the ideal Christian community is very close to the “ideal” of socialism. However, there is simply too much left to sin and corruption for a truly socialistic Christian society to actually work. If every member of such a society lived up to Christian social ideals, then “socialism” could, at least in theory, work.

So…what the Church condemns is the evil, unjustice and corruption that has existed to date in all attempts at a socialistic society.

There is not one type of society that the Church endorses as “the best”, as not one single society to date has succeded in living up to the ideals that Christ set up for us to follow.
 
True, there has never been capitalism in which the law of the marketplace was absolute. But, many times this law has been pushed to over ride the common good, such as when we had child labor, or even today when a few companies abuse workers with horrible working conditions. I know, I worked in one. But there are many excellent corporations that take good care of their workers and offer excellent benefits of all sorts. These are to be commended, as the Church teaches.

What I want to know, is their any form of socialism that can be commended.
All forms have some central planning and some degree of theft, as far as I know.
If I can’t steal from the rich and take that money, keep some for myself, buy a car and give that to my poor brother in law, then how is it justified for the state to do so?

I found this in the encyclical Rerum Novorum:
  1. And in addition to injustice, it is only too evident what an upset and disturbance there would be in all classes, and to how intolerable and hateful a slavery citizens would be subjected. The door would be thrown open to envy, to mutual invective, and to discord; the sources of wealth themselves would run dry, for no one would have any interest in exerting his talents or his industry; and that ideal equality about which they entertain pleasant dreams would be in reality the levelling down of all to a like condition of misery and degradation. Hence, it is clear that the main tenet of socialism, community of goods, must be utterly rejected, since it only injures those whom it would seem meant to benefit, is directly contrary to the natural rights of mankind, and would introduce confusion and disorder into the commonweal. The first and most fundamental principle, therefore, if one would undertake to alleviate the condition of the masses, must be the inviolability of private property.
My question is, are there any forms of socialism that have a doctrine of only a partial community of goods? Or only a partial taking of private property? If even this isn’t allowed, then why didn’t the Catechism condemn socialism as a whole and not just certain ideologies associated with socialism.
Is it because some aspects of socialism may be good, such as the intent to help the poor, and thus the whole can’t be condemned since there is some good?
Or in the Catechism is the Church actually condemning socialism itself, and not just the ideologies associated with it, since all forms of socialism are associated with atheism, since they all advocate theft and class envy, and all forms are associated with some form of totalitarianism?
 
And yet, it is the ideological position of many people that the rule of the marketplace MUST be absolute and oppose regulating any aspects of business.
Really, like who? I cannot think of a single person who advocates that position. Certainly not anyone in the political realm.
 
Libertarianism.
Not any Libertarianistparty that I am aware of.

The promote MINIMAL regulation, but they do not promote NO regulation.

Here is an example, on environmental regulation’
What, if any, environmental regulation is permissible?
October 29th, 2010, 11:14 am by Tibor MachanQuestion: Libertarians don’t want the government to impose any regulations regarding pollution, correct? If no regulations are in place, however, and companies are allowed to pollute at will, won’t these pollutants eventually end up harming others, therefore warranting regulation? Aren’t there many places where environmental regulations are needed to protect people from harm?
Answer: Libertarians hold that the law must require all enterprises to cover their own cost of production which includes cleaning up their waste. The challenge is to identify the borders between these enterprises and make sure no dumping–imposing unwanted cost on others–occurs. If this is not technically possible, **some regulations may have to be introduced that prevent businesses from misusing public spheres such as rivers, oceans, lakes, the air mass, **etc. But all this should be aimed ultimately at removing regulations and replacing them with adjudication. (See, in this regard, J. C. Smith, “The Processes of Adjudication and Regulation, A Comparison,” in Johnson & Machan, eds., Rights and Regulation [SF: Pacific Institute, 1983], pp. 71-98.)
askthelibertarian.freedomblogging.com/category/regulation/
 
I found this in the Catechism
  1. The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.”
Does that mean the Church condemns socialism or just some of the atheistic ideologies associated with socialism?
My personal opinion is that the Catholic Church does not condemn the weaker type of socialism that is found in many European countries, but does condemn the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies that might have been associated with the communist system.
 
And the means for enforcing the regulations would be?
According to the website above, the Libertarian view would be that the law, hence the government, would be the enforcing entity.

Hence it would seem the Libertarians do not hold to the position you claim they do.
 
According to the website above, the Libertarian view would be that the law, hence the government, would be the enforcing entity.

Hence it would seem the Libertarians do not hold to the position you claim they do.
We both agree that there would be laws.

What MEANS do libertarians support in order to enforce the laws?
 
We both agree that there would be laws.

What MEANS do libertarians support in order to enforce the laws?
Governmental action, it seems.

I have yet to hear any libertarian claim that there is no role at all for government. That is more of the line for anarchists.

But we digress, Your claim was that LIbertarians advocated no regulation at all, and that claim has been proven false.
 
Governmental action, it seems.

I have yet to hear any libertarian claim that there is no role at all for government. That is more of the line for anarchists.

But we digress, Your claim was that LIbertarians advocated no regulation at all, and that claim has been proven false.
Don’t be so hasty.

What kind of governmental action would be acceptable to a libertarian?
 
Don’t be so hasty.

What kind of governmental action would be acceptable to a libertarian?
Regulatory and legal, as their website said. And since you denied that they acknowledge that, you are clearly incorrect.

Do you have information to the contrary?
 
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