Does the Church eventually lose every argument on social issues?

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OP, sorry, but I have not seen you prove any points with any good references, only make statements and accusations.

If you are interested in the truth, please read the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” for the facts.
and
secondarily read “Catholicism for Dummies” by Frs. Tragilio and Breghenti.

The Church has never never never said that homosexual acts, fornication, adultary, divorce from a valid marriage with remarriage, etc., were not Mortal Sins.
The truth of the Church has not changed.

As I said before - “When you read the CCC in its entirety, you will probably be smarter and more accurate than those at Yale Divinity regarding the Catholic Faith.
Just because some call themselves “theologians” of any Faith, does not mean they are always correct. Theologians make errors as well.”
 
I guess it hinges on how one defines “lose”. If lose means that Secular society isn’t going to listen, that’s a big “so what?”, IMHO. We will have the struggle between the evil in society and the holiness of the Church…always…until the end of time.

If lose means losing prudential issues, yeah, it’s disheartening. American society is going farther and farther down the slope all the time, so, yeah, we are gonna lose those issues in the hearts of society eventually.

We’re a serious minority, and we’ll never be a majority, IMHO. Christ never said any different…
 
I guess it hinges on how one defines “lose”. If lose means that Secular society isn’t going to listen, that’s a big “so what?”, IMHO. We will have the struggle between the evil in society and the holiness of the Church…always…until the end of time.

If lose means losing prudential issues, yeah, it’s disheartening. American society is going farther and farther down the slope all the time, so, yeah, we are gonna lose those issues in the hearts of society eventually.

We’re a serious minority, and we’ll never be a majority, IMHO. Christ never said any different…
I think what the OP meant was that the Church eventually changes its position. I don’t think that’s true, though it’s certainly true that the Church’s positions are affected by the norms of the broader culture.

And the lesson I draw from history is not “the Church always winds up changing its position, so it should just give in and do so sooner in future” but rather “the Church has often not lived up to its countercultural mission as well as it should–it’s doing a better job these days and should go on improving in this regard.”

The Church never, ever took a countercultural stance in favor of slavery, for instance. It took a mildly countercultural stance against slavery, and should have been much more clear-cut on the subject.

Edwin
 
The Church never, ever took a countercultural stance in favor of slavery, for instance. It took a mildly countercultural stance against slavery, and should have been much more clear-cut on the subject.
The Church fully abolished it, the first time around: slavery in Western Europe simply ceased to exist, a few generations before Charlemagne.

It only came back in the Renaissance because “let’s just copy whatever the ancient Romans did” was much easier than thinking.

Even then, in Catholic countries (as in Orthodox Byzantium, which never really abolished slavery), slaves had far more legal rights than they’d had in the classical era, or in any non-Catholic country. Masters didn’t have sexual rights to their slaves, slave families couldn’t be broken up—indeed, slave marriages were honored—and you couldn’t simply kill a slave for no reason. Not to put too fine a point on it but slaves in 1600s New Spain had more legal rights than peasants did in contemporary China or Japan.

Honestly I can’t actually think of a single social-issue argument the Catholic Church has ever taken a losing position on.
 
The Church fully abolished it, the first time around: slavery in Western Europe simply ceased to exist, a few generations before Charlemagne.
That may depend on what you mean by slavery. I found on Google books a book on Charlemagne by Alessandro Barbaro (published in English by the University of California Press, 2004), which discusses this issue on pp. 326ff (I think the discussion begins earlier, but that section isn’t accessible). Barbaro uses the word “slavery,” but points out the various rights possessed by Carolingian slaves. So your basic point that medieval “slaves” did always have some rights is certainly correct.

Whether Western Europe actually differed from the Byzantine world on this point is something I’d like to see further substantiated. Barbaro’s description of Carolingian slavery looks a lot like your description of Byzantine slavery (which is accurate as far as I know).

There’s a website devoted to medieval Mediterranean slavery, on which I found an abstract of a book on the Church and slavery in the early Middle Ages. The author doesn’t appear particularly friendly to the Church–apparently he says that the Church’s contributions to the disappearance of slavery were purely accidental, even “unwilling” (I wonder what evidence he has for this, or is it just anti-Catholic mind-reading?), but the abstract indicates that he concludes that medieval “servi” should not be called “slaves.”

Aquinas uses the word “servus” and applies Aristotle’s discussion of slavery directly to the concept of “servi,” but I think it’s generally agreed that what Aquinas is talking about is what we would call “serfs.”
It only came back in the Renaissance because “let’s just copy whatever the ancient Romans did” was much easier than thinking.
Evidence that the Renaissance made a significant difference in this regard, or that this was the reason? Roman law was introduced into Europe in the 12th century (which was arguably the real “Renaissance” but probably not what you have in mind:D).

In short, I think you are overstating and oversimplifying the case and I would like to see your sources, but I essentially agree with you that the Middle Ages saw a concern for the rights of “servi” that was motivated by Christian considerations and backed by the Church.

Edwin
 
The Church has never changed its position on doctrinal teaching. Sure there have been bad Popes and Catholic leaders over the years: however, their actions are not evidence of the Church changing its doctrines nor could you provide evidence of such.

The claim is as meritless as saying the teachings of Christ were changed as a result of Judas’s actions.
 
I was have been listening more and more to historical theologians lately, and one from Yale Divinity made the startling comment the other day, on the topic of gay rights, that the Church has lost every debate on social issues in which it has ever engaged. I found the statement shocking, but then with my limited knowledge of history, I could not come up with a single example in which the Church has not eventually been required to change its moral position.

It is currently trying to hold its ground on contraception, gay rights and abortion. It appears to be losing, and even Catholic countries reject Church doctrine. The list of past issues, in which the Church has eventually changed its own teachings and practices in order to conform to changing societal norms, in areas like slavery, money lending, divorce, etc… is a significant one.

Can you think of a social justice issue in which the Church has prevailed over time?
Well, well, well, Rock Happy strikes again with yet another attempt at rewriting Catholic Church history. Some of you have seen through him, as he rehashes the same old Rock Happy argument that the Church has always practices moral relativism. Time to give it up Rock Happy and begin to realise that CAF has many reasonably intelligent contributors that can see through your piffle.

Want an example of that piffle? Read post #15, where Rock happy writes “…ones take it as a matter of fact that the Church has always practiced moral relativism.” and then swing across to this thread and read this post by Rock Happy where he writes “The Church has boldly embraced moral relativism for 2,000 years.” Rock Happy boldly goes from forum to forum attempting to convince people that Church history, Church teaching and Church dogma is not what it seems to be. He is subversive and a troll.

In the second thread I linked to Rock Happy even has the temerity to tell a poster that Popes JP II and Benedict are radically opposing Church tradition and so that is proof that the Church has always embraced moral relativism. The deluded nature of Rock Happy’s posts suggest a complete lack of understanding of the Natural Law foundations of Catholicism for 2000 years. If we believe Rock Happy’s complete and utter piffle, we would be thinking JP II and Benedict have only just discovered the Natural Law and decided to apply it to the Church!!

Rock Happy deigns to tell us in his opening paragraph here that he has a limited knowledge of history. yet he then goes on to tell us, as he has on other occasions, that the common understanding of Church doctrine and dogma is wrong and we have all misinterpreted Church history. Even that obvious contradiction should make people aware of this fellow’s agenda. He even begins his post by claiming he has been “…listening more and more to historical theologians…” Perhaps a visit to this page will convince many readers that even this claim by Rock Happy is a con.
 
Evidence that the Renaissance made a significant difference in this regard, or that this was the reason? Roman law was introduced into Europe in the 12th century (which was arguably the real “Renaissance” but probably not what you have in mind:D).

In short, I think you are overstating and oversimplifying the case and I would like to see your sources, but I essentially agree with you that the Middle Ages saw a concern for the rights of “servi” that was motivated by Christian considerations and backed by the Church.
Roman law was reintroduced in dribs and drabs from Charlemagne on, coexisting with common law, but the definitive shift in France actually came at the beginning of the 14th century, under Philip the Fair (who also destroyed the Knights Templar). He reintroduced it because he was in the middle of a dispute with his daughters-in-law and Roman law was more advantageous to his position.

And actually, the 12th century is not the Renaissance. It was much, much better—women, for instance, were full legal adults, who could own property, practice trades, file lawsuits, and vote. The Renaissance put an end to that, restoring the Roman status of women: wards of their husbands or fathers.

Read the late Regine Pernoud, “Women in the Days of Cathedrals” and “Those Terrible Middle Ages”. She was curator of France’s National Archives for a while, then she retired to run a Joan of Arc museum (actually I think the Joan of Arc museum).

I was actually going to point out the potential ambiguity of the word “servus”, but you already did, so thanks. 🙂
 
You need to be extremely careful when citing secular anti-Catholic professors as authoritative sources on the Catholic Church, her history, and her teachings.

I know our country was founded mostly by Protestants and there has always been an anti-Catholic agenda in our schools and history books, but that is no excuse to seek further information and inform yourself.

I think the problem with our education system is that it is so one-sided and there is so much work to do that people often don’t have time to seek information from other sources than the ones they give you, or they believe they’re too well-informed to look at other sources on the topic. The more educated you are, and the longer you spend in school, the easier it is to be manipulated by the culture and biased news articles, media, advertising, etc. I think it’s a blind arrogance. I’m “too smart” to be manipulated, but that’s where they get you.

Just look at our TV shows today. It’s very pushy with their secular humanist ideals, but most people are too blind to see it unless they look elsewhere for information. For example, in America many people watch a lot of TV and they have slowly been pushing the “gay rights” agenda and people are slowly becoming more accepting of something that was unheard of… keep those acts in the bedroom, and marriage is one man, one woman for life. Not anymore. High divorce rates → devaluing marriage → who cares if gays want to get married too?
 
The Church is right on all social issues whether it “wins” any particular debate or not. It doesn’t matter if the majority of people believe the Church is wrong. What matters is the Truth and the Truth is that the Church is right.

That said, we are living in a time of severe moral poverty. It is very sad. I honestly don’t think it will be too much longer before Jesus returns. But then again, I could easily be wrong as many others have been in the past.
 
The Church is right on all social issues whether it “wins” any particular debate or not. It doesn’t matter if the majority of people believe the Church is wrong. What matters is the Truth and the Truth is that the Church is right.

That said, we are living in a time of severe moral poverty. It is very sad. I honestly don’t think it will be too much longer before Jesus returns. But then again, I could easily be wrong as many others have been in the past.
Holly, while I would trip the light fantastic over even 10% chance of HIS appearing in my day; I’d not agree that we have “moral poverty” any worse than in earlier times. There is nothing new under the sun, particularly in the area of sinning. There is just more awareness of it.

ICXC NIKA
 
I think the Church position on sexual and reproductive issues (excluding abortion) is unlikely to ever be upheld in civil law again anywhere it has been defeated, and that everywhere it still holds sway it will eventually lose. I think it is still possible that something closer to the Church’s position on abortion will become the norm, probably as a result of improvements in fetal viability. But I do not see its position on early termination ever becoming the norm again, anywhere. On a range of other social issues i think the church has done quite well, with its thinking on weapons of mass destruction, opposition to torture and capital punishment, restorative justice etc doing very well in the public mind at least in the West. I don’t have a lot of confidence that the Church’s thoughtful teaching on calumny and detraction will catch on in the reporting of celebs’ lives, but even we non-believers can hope for Church success in some areas!
It depends upon who Catholics, Christians, Jews, Muslims, and all people of good will VOTE for - at least in the USA, Canada, and many other Countries.

Science has improved, and it is clear to all that can see, that unborn babies are human beings.
ehd.org/movies.php?mov_id=44
Abortion is murder.
 
Holly, while I would trip the light fantastic over even 10% chance of HIS appearing in my day; I’d not agree that we have “moral poverty” any worse than in earlier times. There is nothing new under the sun, particularly in the area of sinning. There is just more awareness of it.
ICXC NIKA
We don’t know the place or time that He will return.
We should always be prepared. In most cases the dates and times of our own deaths are uncertain as well.

The cycle of religous persecution can return if we are not vigilent. We could be heading for another dark age.
The USA is morally going down hill due to bad politicians and bad judges.
Our voting can make a difference.

Abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, have never been legal in the USA until more recent history. It did not exist in our Country in such great numbers until sanctioned by the Government as a perfecfly acceptable.way of life.
Approximately one million legalized murders (abortions) are committed each year in the USA.
 
I have heard that said here. But it contradicts easily confirmed historical statements and practices by previous Popes and the Church. Well respected theologians, including Catholic ones take it as a matter of fact that the Church has always practiced moral relativism.

I know it is a hot topic now with Benedict XVI. In my view this is a new and radical position for a Pope.

I have presented evidence for this repeatedly here, and been referred to theologians who attempted unsuccessfully in my opinion to refute my sources. There is no point in beating a dead horse here.

I thank the people who have expressed their opinions here.
Please name One Church Moral Relatism issue. You are Quite Mistaken, as we pointed out; The Popwe was the First Source to Condemn Slavery in the 1400’s, and Acted Against it in the 1500’s now Brazil. Pls name Any other world Leader or Big organization that condemned Slavery then.
 
Roman law was reintroduced in dribs and drabs from Charlemagne on, coexisting with common law, but the definitive shift in France actually came at the beginning of the 14th century, under Philip the Fair (who also destroyed the Knights Templar). He reintroduced it because he was in the middle of a dispute with his daughters-in-law and Roman law was more advantageous to his position.
Right, but the Church had been using it earlier and people had been studying it.
And actually, the 12th century is not the Renaissance. It was much, much better—women, for instance, were full legal adults, who could own property, practice trades, file lawsuits, and vote. The Renaissance put an end to that, restoring the Roman status of women: wards of their husbands or fathers.
Again, one has to be careful generalizing–I would indeed like to read some more of Pernoud’s work, which I like very much from what I’ve seen of it–but one can’t generalize based only on France. Legal practices varied widely across Europe.

It all depends on what one means by “Renaissance,” of course. . . .

The one Pernoud book I have is on Joan of Arc, so it makes sense that she’d run a museum on the subject!

Edwin
 
Well, the Church opposed Communism for one thing, and Pope John Paul II had a significant hand in its demise, as did the Church in Poland generally. Eastern Europe, at least, is no longer under its sway, and some of the holdouts might eventually change.
The Church has also opposed just as vigorously a laissez-faire Capitalist economic system which is what we have now. Pope Pius XI and Pope Paul VI condemened it as an “UNBRIDLED LIBERALISM” and that 'IT COULD NEVER BE CONDEMENED ENOUGH."

*“He who has the goods of this world and sees his brother in need and closes his heart to him, how does the love of God abide in him?” (21) Everyone knows that the Fathers of the Church laid down the duty of the rich toward the poor in no uncertain terms. As St. Ambrose put it: “You are not making a gift of what is yours to the poor man, but you are giving him back what is his. You have been appropriating things that are meant to be for the common use of everyone. The earth belongs to everyone, not to the rich.” (22) These words indicate that the right to private property is not absolute and unconditional.

No one may appropriate surplus goods solely for his own private use when others lack the bare necessities of life. In short, “as the Fathers of the Church and other eminent theologians tell us, the right of private property may never be exercised to the detriment of the common good.” When “private gain and basic community needs conflict with one another,” it is for the public authorities “to seek a solution to these questions, with the active involvement of individual citizens and social groups.” (23)
  1. However, certain concepts have somehow arisen out of these new conditions and insinuated themselves into the fabric of human society. These concepts present profit as the chief spur to economic progress, free competition as the guiding norm of economics, and private ownership of the means of production as an absolute right, having no limits nor concomitant social obligations.
This unbridled liberalism paves the way for a particular type of tyranny, rightly condemned by Our predecessor Pius XI, for it results in the “international imperialism of money.”(26Such improper manipulations of economic forces can never be condemned enough; let it be said once again that economics is supposed to be in the service of man. (27)

But if it is true that a type of capitalism, as it is commonly called, has given rise to hardships, unjust practices, and fratricidal conflicts that persist to this day, it would be a mistake to attribute these evils to the rise of industrialization itself, for they really derive from the pernicious economic concepts that grew up along with it. We must in all fairness acknowledge the vital role played by labor systemization and industrial organization in the task of development.*

Bishop Fulton Sheen had this to say:

The Christian solution is to get behind neither Capital nor Labor exclusively; but to be behind Capital when Marxian Socialism would destroy private property, and to be behind Labor when Monopolistic Capitalism would claim the priority of profits over the right to a just wage.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church has this to say:

*2424 A theory that makes profit the exclusive norm and ultimate end of economic activity is morally unacceptable. The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order.204

A system that “subordinates the basic rights of individuals and of groups to the collective organization of production” is contrary to human dignity.205 Every practice that reduces persons to nothing more than a means of profit enslaves man, leads to idolizing money, and contributes to the spread of atheism. "You cannot serve God and mammon."206

2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” **She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.***207 Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."208 Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

Moreover right wing conservatism misrepresents what socialism really is, socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly or commonly owned and controlled cooperatively; What the right wing conservatives have subsituted for true socialism is a welfare state which is NOT neccassarily condemened by the Church. It is certainly true that an overly-centralized welfare state could harm human dignity and violate subsidiarity. But not even the Netherlands, the best example of a welfare state crosses this thresshold. There are plenty examples of welfare states throughout Europe and other parts of the world which are fully supported by the Church, one that twins both solidarity and subsidiarity, is Germany, with a model supported strongly by Cardinal Marx of Munich. Basically, the welfare system funded by the state, but managed by subsidiary mediating institutions in a fully autonomous manner. And this system spends far more on social spending than the United States, and has far lower poverty and inequality, as well as universal healthcare .

When Catholic clergy exchange right wing conservatism for the social justice teachings of the Church then they have adopted a Calvinist system of economics long ago condemned as a heresy.

In the Service of Christ and His Church,

David
 
The Church has also opposed just as vigorously a laissez-faire Capitalist economic system which is what we have now.
I’m wondering what economy you could possibly be referring to. I assume it is the US. In the US government employees represent a huge percentage of the workforce. Those who are employed by companies who rely significantly on government contracts are also a big group. And I cant think of any area of the economy that is not regulated. I cant understand how anyone could possibly think the US or the Western governments are laissez-faire capitalist. They are barely capitalist.
Moreover right wing conservatism misrepresents what socialism really is, socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly or commonly owned and controlled cooperatively;
I agree in a strict sense the US is not very socialist, though they do own a bankrupt auto manufacturer. It is more fascist which is the merger of big corporations and big government. I think what most people dislike is big, powerful government no matter how it is most accurately described. And that makes sense because the exact form by which tyrannical government works is not all that important. US politicians being clever men they avoid actual direct ownership and use gifts of stolen money and regulation to achieve practical ownership.
 
I’m wondering what economy you could possibly be referring to. I assume it is the US. In the US government employees represent a huge percentage of the workforce. Those who are employed by companies who rely significantly on government contracts are also a big group. And I cant think of any area of the economy that is not regulated. I cant understand how anyone could possibly think the US or the Western governments are laissez-faire capitalist. They are barely capitalist…
No the Netherlands are barely a capitalist system. Most of the world now participates in the free market and therefore have market economies. A just Capitialist society began to rise to power from the former leissez faire capitalist society from 1890-1933. From 1934 with the New Deal it began to shift toward a real market economy as the GDP began to grow. Then in 1941, our economy was put into hyperspeed by one massive government stimulis package called WWII.

By 1942 unemployment dropped from 13% to 1.2% until 1945. After 1945 a true a just capitalist system came to power and unions represented labor. From 1945 until 1981 if you were labor you were in a union. Only one income was needed to support the entire family and draw a good pension at retirment. Everyone had health and dental insurance and we built great infrastructures, superhighways, bridges, put men on the moon, had the best public education system in the world. This was because Capitalism served all of society and wealth did not trickle down it flowed down. Today we have much more of a liessez fair capitalist society with few regulations, which is why the market crashed in both 1929 and 2008 and is why Enron was able to raid its employees pensions.

On a scale of 1-10 where 1 is the Market economy in the Netherlands, 3 is the market economy in France, 4 is the market economy in Germany and Japan, and 5 is the market economy we had from 1945-1981. And 10 is a pure Lessez Faire Capitalist society; we are at about an 8 with the momentum headed toward 9 or better only to be kept from much greater momentum by the Obama administration and the Senate.
I agree in a strict sense the US is not very socialist, though they do own a bankrupt auto manufacturer. It is more fascist which is the merger of big corporations and big government. .
A government bail out to help a corporation become solvent again is hardly Facist. In a Facist society government side of ownership showed up at the work place with guns. I’m sure there are no federal troops keeping the peace at GM. I do believe however that GM paid back a significant portion of their loan and ownership has been transferred back to GM. If this is not the case it is the plan. In a Facist society there is no such plan, just the government showing up with AK-47 to make sure workers stay in line. Moreover, Airbus has joint private and government ownership and is very profitable with no french soldiers with automatic weapons to keep people in line. Instead, the workers of france keep the government in line.

Peace,
David
 
The Church has also opposed just as vigorously a laissez-faire Capitalist economic system which is what we have now. Pope Pius XI and Pope Paul VI condemened it as an “UNBRIDLED LIBERALISM” and that 'IT COULD NEVER BE CONDEMENED ENOUGH."

*“He who has the goods of this world and sees his brother in need and closes his heart to him, how does the love of God abide in him?” (21) Everyone knows that the Fathers of the Church laid down the duty of the rich toward the poor in no uncertain terms. As St. Ambrose put it: “You are not making a gift of what is yours to the poor man, but you are giving him back what is his. You have been appropriating things that are meant to be for the common use of everyone. The earth belongs to everyone, not to the rich.” (22) These words indicate that the right to private property is not absolute and unconditional.

This unbridled liberalism paves the way for a particular type of tyranny, rightly condemned by Our predecessor Pius XI, for it results in the “international imperialism of money.”(26Such improper manipulations of economic forces can never be condemned enough; let it be said once again that economics is supposed to be in the service of man. (27)

But if it is true that a type of capitalism, as it is commonly called, has given rise to hardships, unjust practices, and fratricidal conflicts that persist to this day, it would be a mistake to attribute these evils to the rise of industrialization itself, for they really derive from the pernicious economic concepts that grew up along with it. We must in all fairness acknowledge the vital role played by labor systemization and industrial organization in the task of development.*

Bishop Fulton Sheen had this to say:

The Christian solution is to get behind neither Capital nor Labor exclusively; but to be behind Capital when Marxian Socialism would destroy private property, and to be behind Labor when Monopolistic Capitalism would claim the priority of profits over the right to a just wage.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church has this to say:

*2424 A theory that makes profit the exclusive norm and ultimate end of economic activity is morally unacceptable. The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order.204

A system that “subordinates the basic rights of individuals and of groups to the collective organization of production” is contrary to human dignity.205 Every practice that reduces persons to nothing more than a means of profit enslaves man, leads to idolizing money, and contributes to the spread of atheism. "You cannot serve God and mammon."206

2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” **She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.***207 Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."208 Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

Moreover right wing conservatism misrepresents what socialism really is, socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly or commonly owned and controlled cooperatively; What the right wing conservatives have subsituted for true socialism is a welfare state which is NOT neccassarily condemened by the Church. It is certainly true that an overly-centralized welfare state could harm human dignity and violate subsidiarity. But not even the Netherlands, the best example of a welfare state crosses this thresshold. There are plenty examples of welfare states throughout Europe and other parts of the world which are fully supported by the Church, one that twins both solidarity and subsidiarity, is Germany, with a model supported strongly by Cardinal Marx of Munich. Basically, the welfare system funded by the state, but managed by subsidiary mediating institutions in a fully autonomous manner. And this system spends far more on social spending than the United States, and has far lower poverty and inequality, as well as universal healthcare .

When Catholic clergy exchange right wing conservatism for the social justice teachings of the Church then they have adopted a Calvinist system of economics long ago condemned as a heresy.

In the Service of Christ and His Church,

David
Never did I defend “unbridled capitalism” and I would not disagree that the Church opposes it. Nor do I disagree that what is often called “socialism” (e.g., the European model) is not a complete socialist system, but aspects of it imposed onto an otherwise capitalist system.

But I disagree that the U.S. has a totally capitalist system. It’s a long, long way from that. It just doesn’t have quite as many redistributive encrustations on it that some European economies do. But it does have many, and they’re fairly complex and costly.

Consequently, if one truly believes the U.S’s economic system is unbridled capitalism, I would expect one to demonstrate that, rather than just assert it.
 
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