Does The Church Have An Obligation To Promote The Latin Mass ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Seamus_L
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
It depends what you mean by that. It has the obligation to retain Latin as a language for the celebration of Mass and the sacraments & various liturgies but that’s not the same as an obligation to try to create demand for the use of the 1962 Missal.

The call for retaining Latin came AFTER the call to reform the Mass & simplify it in the very same document. You can’t take one article out of context and try to make it mean what it never meant in the original document. Latin was to be safeguarded within the reformed Mass and the reformed sacramental rites.

After that item come 4 lists of norms to be followed. In those lists is included the article quoted in the OP. Unfortunately, the poster didn’t see fit to add the other parts of that article, namely:
What you’re saying is very accurate. The bishops are to preserve the Latin language. However, they are also to ensure that the liturgy is easy for the local people to follow and to participate. This is why the local language may be used and even extended.

I’m reminded of when I was in the missions in South America. The indigenous people speak very poor Spanish. They use their ancient languages when among themselves. These languages are older than Latin. Many of them, if not most, do not read and write. The celebration of the mass in their language was introduced. In many places that you visit in South America mass is celebrated in Quichua, Quechua and Guarani. Among the mestizo and white population in the metro areas you find mass in Spanish and in Latin. Mass in Latin is usually celebrated in the Cathedral parish by the bishop on Sundays. But there are other parishes that also celebrate it and some religious houses. But the OF is the usual mass. They do have some places where the EF is celebrated. What is interesting is that the indigenous people do not attend the EF, because they do not feel any connection with it. It is very European and they have a very strong distrust for anything that comes from Europe and the USA. Most of their distrust has to do with abortion, but that’s another topic. They often feel that the influence of the northern hemisphere is a threat to their familly bonds and tries to extinguish them through abortion and birth control.

It is very difficult to break the links that people make between things. If what we want is to have people find Christ in the Liturgy, we have to do what the documents say. We have to extend the use of the local language and the bishops have to make changes in the way that we express and share the Christian faith. That is best left to the local episcopal conferences.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
There is a problem on this thread. The title speaks of the Latin mass. Let’s clarify two issues.
  1. Both the EF and the OF are the Latin mass. Pope Benedict has defined that and until another pope redefines it, it remains the law of the Church.
  2. The use of the Latin language is a separate question.
  3. The Ordinary Form is celebrated in Latin in many places, including by the Holy Father, most of the time.
  4. The Extraordinary Form is celebrated in Latin, but it is a form of the Latin mass, not THE Latin Mass.
For those who want the Holy Father to celebrate the EF, that’s not the same as asking him to celebrate the mass in Latin. He already does that quite often.

There is no law that forbids the pope from celebrating the EF of the mass. He does not do so because of pastoral reasons. As Brother David has pointed out, he can only celebrate it in a Latin Rite church. The pope can also celebrate mass in one of the other rites, but no one seems to be calling for that. Why not?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
I for one would like to see the Pope celebrate Mass in the other rites. The Pope is very knowledgable in the Eastern Rites. I had a friend of the family who was bi-ritual. He could say The OF and a Devine Liturgy. Know if the Pope knows how to celebrate “The Devine Liturgy” is a good question? I do not know that. I would like to see it. What would be intresting to see what Language he would say it in? In the Latin Rite, “Latin is the official Language” with the local languages as second. In the Eastern Rite the local language is used. What would the language would be? Another reason why schools should teach about all the Rites of the Church.
 
I for one would like to see the Pope celebrate Mass in the other rites. The Pope is very knowledgable in the Eastern Rites. I had a friend of the family who was bi-ritual. He could say The OF and a Devine Liturgy. Know if the Pope knows how to celebrate “The Devine Liturgy” is a good question? I do not know that. I would like to see it. What would be intresting to see what Language he would say it in? In the Latin Rite, “Latin is the official Language” with the local languages as second. In the Eastern Rite the local language is used. What would the language would be? Another reason why schools should teach about all the Rites of the Church.
If the Holy Father were to celebrate an Eastern rite liturgy he would have to celebrate it in an Eastern rite church. Neither St. Peter’s or his own church, St. John Lateran, are Eastern rite churches. He would have to use the language of that rite.

Does he know those languages? I don’t know. Does he know the rites? Yes. Is it appropriate? That’s a good question. Canonically he is the Pontiff, but he is also the Bishop of Rome, which is a western archdiocese. He is not the patriarch of the east. He used to be the patriarch of the west. But Pope Benedict has eliminated that title. Therefore, he is no longer the patriarch of any Church. That creates another question. Can a bishop who is not a patriarch celebrate in another patriarchy? I don’t know the answer. The Eastern Chruches have their own canon laws. They do not follow our own. There are some things that repeat themselves, such as the laws on sacraments. But there are many more differences between the codes than there are similarities. We would have to know whether the canons of the Eastern Churches allow for a western bishop to celebrate their liturgy.

Our current pope was never bi-ritual. The questioin is can he be multi-ritual, because he is the pope? To the best of my knowledge, this has never been put to the test. I could be wrong. So I would have to defer to my Eastern rite brothers who know that particular history for the answer. We have had Eastern rite popes in the early days of the Church. Once the Italians took over the papacy, that seems to have died out.

We have also had many popes who were religious. Pope Pius V was a Dominican. But according to the history of the Domnicans he did not celebrate the Dominican rite once he became pope. Pope Nicholas IV was a Franciscan and he did observe the Franciscan traditions when he celebrated mass. But Nicholas lived long before Trent. There have also been popes who were monks. But the did not preserve the Carthusian rite when they became pope. They adopted the ordinary form that was in effect at the time for the Latin rite Church.

Tradition would suggest that popes always use the ordinary form of the Latin rite Church, which would explain why Pope Benedict does not use the EF in public. He may use it in his own chapel. This information is not going to be shared with the public, as the Vatican has a tradition of keeping certain things in the internal form, meaning out of the public eye.

As we saw when the Holy Father visited the Holy Land, he celebrated the OF in Latin. He did not use the EF or the Eastern rite, even though Jerusalem has both. The Eastern rite bishops in Jerusalem attended the mass, but did not concelebrate. We see that often in the Vatican too. You will often notice that the Eastern rite bishops and patriarchs sit in with the clergy, but they do not concelebrate in the Latin rite mass.

My speculation is that the Holy Father avoids going back and forth between forms in the Latin rite and between rites in the universal Church to keep the boundaries very smooth and clean. In other words, to avoid confusion among the faithful. It can look like he’s endorsing or promoting something that is not part of the ordinary liturgical life of the Latin Church.

When he opened the possibility to celebrate the Tridentine mass of 1963, he did not encourage the Latin Chuch to embrace it as the official form. He very deliberately referred to it as the Extraordinary form, as we refer to extraordinary Eucharistic ministers, meaning that it is allowed, but not the norm. Had he wanted to make it the norm, he would not have called it extraordinary. He would have used some other word or simply said that there are two forms available and let the reader interpret it. But by using the term “extraordinary” it becomes quite clear that this is not for everyone, but for those who want it. In other words, we cannot give the impression that he wants to impose it on every Latin rite Catholic. He wants to make it available, which is different. I’m glad that he did make it available. Because so many people do get a lot out of it. But in charity, neither those who get something out of the EF or the OF should impose the form on others.

It would make sense that the Holy Father, as the head of the Church and as a Latin rite bishop use what is ordinary or usual, if you want to use that word.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The biggest need with the Latin Mass right now is greater availability for the faithful. The situation has improved a good deal from how it was just a few years ago, but the limited number of parishes providing the TLM still causes tremendous inconveniences for large numbers of people. Pope Benedict has encouraged wider use of the TLM, but for some reason we still have Bishops who seem to hinder efforts to meet the needs of the faithful.
 
If the Holy Father were to celebrate an Eastern rite liturgy he would have to celebrate it in an Eastern rite church. Neither St. Peter’s or his own church, St. John Lateran, are Eastern rite churches.
That’s not quite fully accurate. Latin Rite churches are frequently used for the celebration of Eastern and Oriental liturgies, even on the local level. It’s not at all unusual for a fledgling Eastern or Oriental community to be “hosted” at a Latin Rite church. Further it’s not unusual for a major Eastern or Oriental celebration to take place in a Latin Rite church or cathedral due (in part, at least) to the generally larger size of the latter.

Even in Rome, the Basilica of St Mary Major is often used by Eastern and Oriental Patriarchs.
Does he know the rites? Yes.
It’s rather doubtful that he knows the rubrics of each well enough to actually celebrate in all of them.
Is it appropriate? That’s a good question. Canonically he is the Pontiff, but he is also the Bishop of Rome, which is a western archdiocese. He is not the patriarch of the east. He used to be the patriarch of the west. But Pope Benedict has eliminated that title. Therefore, he is no longer the patriarch of any Church.
Rome remains a Patriarchate. It’s part of the ancient Pentarchy, so the fact that the title “Patriarch of the West” is now in abeyance has little practical import. The Bishop of Rome is de facto Patriarch of the West, use of the title notwithstanding.
That creates another question. Can a bishop who is not a patriarch celebrate in another patriarchy? I don’t know the answer.

The Eastern Chruches have their own canon laws. They do not follow our own. There are some things that repeat themselves, such as the laws on sacraments. But there are many more differences between the codes than there are similarities. We would have to know whether the canons of the Eastern Churches allow for a western bishop to celebrate their liturgy.

Our current pope was never bi-ritual. The questioin is can he be multi-ritual, because he is the pope? To the best of my knowledge, this has never been put to the test. I could be wrong. So I would have to defer to my Eastern rite brothers who know that particular history for the answer. We have had Eastern rite popes in the early days of the Church. Once the Italians took over the papacy, that seems to have died out.
Technically, the Pope alone is omni-ritual, meaning that he could (in theory) celebrate according to any Rite he chooses.
 
Just as another example of what malphono is tallking about, the chaplain of our TLM community is actually an Eastern Rite , Melkite I believe, priest. Since becoming our chaplain, he has twice celebrated the Divine Liturgy at our diocese’s Basilica. The Basilica is also one of the two locations of our TLM, the other being at the Cathedral.
 
Byzantine Divine Liturgies can be celebrated in any Catholic Church. Usually they will bring free standing Icons to represent the Iconostasis but not always. It is something that is done out of necessity, it is not the ideal and I highly doubt that a bishop, let alone the pope, would do so.

Pope John Paul II celebrated at least two Divine Liturgies when he traveled to Ukraine to proclaim some Ukrainian saints, I actually watched a reply of one of the Liturgies.
 
Byzantine Divine Liturgies can be celebrated in any Catholic Church. Usually they will bring free standing Icons to represent the Iconostasis but not always. It is something that is done out of necessity, it is not the ideal and I highly doubt that a bishop, let alone the pope, would do so.
No, it’s not optimal, but yes, it’s done out of necessity. Eastern and Oriental bishops don’t do it on a regular basis, but they certainly do so on those occasions when it’s necessary.

I would imagine that if a pope were to offer an Eastern or Oriental liturgy in Rome, it would likely be done in one or another of the major basilicas.
 
That’s not quite fully accurate. Latin Rite churches are frequently used for the celebration of Eastern and Oriental liturgies, even on the local level. It’s not at all unusual for a fledgling Eastern or Oriental community to be “hosted” at a Latin Rite church. Further it’s not unusual for a major Eastern or Oriental celebration to take place in a Latin Rite church or cathedral due (in part, at least) to the generally larger size of the latter.

Even in Rome, the Basilica of St Mary Major is often used by Eastern and Oriental Patriarchs.

It’s rather doubtful that he knows the rubrics of each well enough to actually celebrate in all of them.

Rome remains a Patriarchate. It’s part of the ancient Pentarchy, so the fact that the title “Patriarch of the West” is now in abeyance has little practical import. The Bishop of Rome is de facto Patriarch of the West, use of the title notwithstanding.

Technically, the Pope alone is omni-ritual, meaning that he could (in theory) celebrate according to any Rite he chooses.
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. As I said, I’m not that familiar with the canons that govern the Easern rites. I will not propose to be an expert on this matter.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
According to the second Vatican Council, Sacrosanctum Concilium 36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

I’m greatful that Pope Benedict has called for wider use of the Latin Mass, but I believe he desperately needs the support of Bishops and priests in this matter.
Constitutio Dogmatica *Sacrosanctum Concilium *(XXXVI) affirmat:
“§1. Linguae latinae usus, salvo particulari iure, in Ritibus latinis servetur.
§2. Cum tamen, sive in Missa, sive in Sacramentorum administratione, sive in aliis Liturgiae partibus, haud raro linguae vernaculae usurpatio valde utilis apud populum exsistere possit, amplior locus ipsi tribui valeat, imprimis autem in lectionibus et admonitionibus, in nonnullis orationibus et cantibus, iuxta normas quae de hac re in sequentibus capitibus singillatim statuuntur.”

Litterae Apostolice Benedicti XVI *Summorum Pontificum *non de linguae latinae uso disserunt, sed de uso Missalis Romani a Pio V promulgati et a Ioanne XXIII denuo editi.

Celebratio Missae ex antiquo ritu romano mihi videtur inopportuna.

Praeterea, “cum, sive in Missa, sive in Sacramentorum administratione, sive in aliis Liturgiae partibus, haud raro linguae vernaculae usurpatio valde utilis apud populum exsistere possit”, puto ut potius vulgare sermo Missa celebranda esse.

Concineat quisquis linguam latinam non intellegit. 👍
 
What you’re saying is very accurate. The bishops are to preserve the Latin language. However, they are also to ensure that the liturgy is easy for the local people to follow and to participate. This is why the local language may be used and even extended.

I’m reminded of when I was in the missions in South America. The indigenous people speak very poor Spanish. They use their ancient languages when among themselves. These languages are older than Latin. Many of them, if not most, do not read and write. The celebration of the mass in their language was introduced. In many places that you visit in South America mass is celebrated in Quichua, Quechua and Guarani. Among the mestizo and white population in the metro areas you find mass in Spanish and in Latin. Mass in Latin is usually celebrated in the Cathedral parish by the bishop on Sundays. But there are other parishes that also celebrate it and some religious houses. But the OF is the usual mass. They do have some places where the EF is celebrated. What is interesting is that the indigenous people do not attend the EF, because they do not feel any connection with it. It is very European and they have a very strong distrust for anything that comes from Europe and the USA. Most of their distrust has to do with abortion, but that’s another topic. They often feel that the influence of the northern hemisphere is a threat to their familly bonds and tries to extinguish them through abortion and birth control.

It is very difficult to break the links that people make between things. If what we want is to have people find Christ in the Liturgy, we have to do what the documents say. We have to extend the use of the local language and the bishops have to make changes in the way that we express and share the Christian faith. That is best left to the local episcopal conferences.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Before 1970 in South America, were the EF Masses said in Latin or Spanish?
 
Before 1970 in South America, were the EF Masses said in Latin or Spanish?
The EF in South America was celebrated in Latin until it gradually disappeared. The OF was always said in Spanish and later translations in the indigenous languages were approved by the Holy See. The translations were actually very good, better than the English one.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The EF in South America was celebrated in Latin until it gradually disappeared. The OF was always said in Spanish and later translations in the indigenous languages were approved by the Holy See. The translations were actually very good, better than the English one.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
That is the point I am trying to make. When the first Missionaries came till 1970 The Mass was in Latin.

Latin is close to Spanish. You are right the translations are better than the English ones.
 
I don’t see all the problems.
When the Latin Mass was all.
The main parts of the Mass were said in Latin and the Gospel and Epistle in the Language of the people,and Nation.

Why not again?

One thing I’m sure is that the Latin Mass has a Lot to learn for the Priestsfor they must say parts in a certain amount of time or the Mass could take Hours.

But I personal am very thankful my Parish Priest gives us the priviledge of being able to have both Masses.
I enjoy both ,and am very happy to HAVE THE PRIVILEGE TO GO TO LATIN MASS>

For that was the only Mass I had when growing up and happy to beable to go again.

I would hope that the Church would promote the same for all. IF YOU WANT to go you can.

🙂
 
Latin is close to Spanish. You are right the translations are better than the English ones.
What does “Latin is close to Spanish.” mean?

It is still a different language, those who speak Spanish and do not now Latin do not understand what is said in Latin.
 
What does “Latin is close to Spanish.” mean?

It is still a different language, those who speak Spanish and do not now Latin do not understand what is said in Latin.
When studying the Romance languages, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, French, Romanian. These languages are derived from Latin. If you study Latin, you can pick up these languages pretty easlily. It is NOT EXACT but simular. I am not an expert in Latin. The more research you do on Latin. The more it makes sense. Also a lot of our English language come from Latin. The Sciences, are filled with it.
 
When studying the Romance languages, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, French, Romanian. These languages are derived from Latin. If you study Latin, you can pick up these languages pretty easlily. It is NOT EXACT but simular. I am not an expert in Latin. The more research you do on Latin. The more it makes sense. Also a lot of our English language come from Latin. The Sciences, are filled with it.
It is very subjective and people are different. Knowledge of one langauge does not mean that it will be easy to learn another.

While words might be simular, grammar structures are different.
 
It is very subjective and people are different. Knowledge of one langauge does not mean that it will be easy to learn another.

While words might be simular, grammar structures are different.
I took French and Spanish in High School in the mid 80’s. Spanish and French are different languages. They are simular. They have masculine and femisimn in relation to words. The more you study you will see how the languages are close. I am not an expert. There are individuals on these boards who can go into detail. Do a search on Latin and how it is close to the Romance languages. You will see.
 
I don’t see all the problems.
When the Latin Mass was all.
The main parts of the Mass were said in Latin and the Gospel and Epistle in the Language of the people,and Nation.

Why not again?
Because the bishops have chosen the vernacular, as permitted by the V2 documents, and because the vast majority of people prefer the vernacular. That does not need to equate with the whole Mass being in the vernacular, and such prayers as the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei could be said in Latin. Hardly anyone pre-Vatican 2 knew enough Latin to be able to follow the Mass without a translation. Even fewer know it now. And simply imposing Latin on everyone is not going to teach them the language.
 
Because the bishops have chosen the vernacular, as permitted by the V2 documents, and because the vast majority of people prefer the vernacular. That does not need to equate with the whole Mass being in the vernacular, and such prayers as the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei could be said in Latin. Hardly anyone pre-Vatican 2 knew enough Latin to be able to follow the Mass without a translation. Even fewer know it now. And simply imposing Latin on everyone is not going to teach them the language.
The first step is to have workshops in Parishes to teach Latin. Start by the Basic prayers, The Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory Be. Then teach the Confetier, Glory to God, Holy, Holy, Holy, and Lamb of God. With explaination and meaning.

In Mass keep singing the prayers in the above in Latin. Repetition is the key.

Require Latin instead of Spanish in Catholic schools.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top