Does the Church Know What Day It Is?

[MarkF]

All,

This thread comes out of my own confusion and frustration, but also out of someone else’s question, “Is January 1 a Holy Day of Obligation?”

The Saturday Vigil Mass - When I was very young before this change was made, I’d complain to my father that I didn’t need to go to Mass on Sunday with the family because I had been to Mass and received Communion in school on Friday. He just said that we all had to go to Mass on Sundays, and that the day itself was special. In other words, back then the day of the week mattered.

Then the post Vatican II Church in America comes up with this idea of the Vigil Mass on Saturdays. The priest at the parish I go to now explained it by saying that since the new day begins at sundown in the old Jewish calendar at least, that Mass on Sunday at 5:30 PM on Saturday counts as being Sunday. Fair enough.

I still think that this is a trick, a bit of sophistry that’s real motive is to fill up the emptying pews with people who don’t have the motivation to get up early on Sunday mornings. But the Saturday Vigil Mass still brings up a lot of questions, even if we set aside the thoroughly practical considerations that I think brought it about.

One, what about when the sun is still up when we go to the Saturday Vigil Mass? Here in the Washington, DC area in winter the Sun has already set by the time we do the 5:30 PM Vigil Mass, so according to the Jewish calendar it is Sunday. But in just a few weeks, the sun will be still up when we do the Vigil Mass. How can this be said to be a Sunday Mass then?

Another question about the whole concept of the Saturday Vigil Mass is does it matter that traditionally Sunday Mass happened on Sunday morning, when the sun was rising, just as it did when Christ rose from the dead. In his fantastic book, The Spirit of the Liturgy, Cardinal Ratzinger talks about sacred time and space. Though his answer is profound, I don’t have the time nor space to explain it all here. But to summarize, he says that time, space and matter are “bursting forth” since the Resurrection in anticipation of the New Jerusalem, and in the time we’re living in now, things like time, space and matter are sacred parts in the liturgy. As far as the time of the Mass goes, he says that it should be on Sunday mornings, not out a mere imitation of the original time, but from the fact that the rising sun is the cosmically ordained time that represents the Risen Lord.

I know that’s a lot and that I probably didn’t do justice to it. But if we accept Cardinal Ratzinger’s idea that the time of the Mass matters, and that the true time of it is on Sunday morning as the sun is rising, then how can we still have a Sunday Mass when on Saturday evening when the Sun has set? Again, he says that these things are not just mere symbols, that their reality is based on the idea of the Incarnation; that time, space and matter have been spiritualized somewhat already. So if Sunday morning, which is the day of the Sun corresponds to life conquering death, then doesn’t the whole idea of the Vigil Mass at night somehow participate in darkness and death?

Another bothersome part comes down to the schedule of Masses the Cathedral in my diocese. We have no Saturday Mass anymore. They don’t celebrate the morning and noon Mass for Saturdays; we just have the Saturday Vigil Mass for Sundays instead. Our missals that are in church have the Saturday Mass listed, complete with its readings from Scripture, but we never get to hear them. In this cathedral church, our week goes from Friday to Sunday with no intervening Saturday. How can this be? What happened to Saturday?
So my overall question is, does the Church know what day it is anymore? I truly am confused about this, though my practical solution is to just skip the Saturday Vigil Mass and go to Sunday Mass on Sunday mornings. That works for the most part, except on a day like today, December 31. The cathedral did not have a Mass for December 31. They only had the Vigil Mass for tomorrow, for the Holy Day, whatever that’s called nowadays. So I really didn’t get to have my Mass for today, December 31. What I got was the Vigil Mass for tomorrow. I’m still going to go the real Holy Day Mass tomorrow, on the real Holy Day, but at a church that’s using the liturgical calendar associated with the TLM Mass. There’s no confusion at that Church.

For anyone who thinks this is a small point, I agree with them somewhat. On a practical level it means that I just go to two different parishes to get my Masses, so it’s not a hardship. But still I’m bothered by a Church that doesn’t seem to know what day it is.

I was going to bring up the whole subject raised in another person who asked if January 1 is a Holy Day or not, but as this topic is already rather complicated with a lot of points, I will start another forum thread on the topic of the varying church schedules that we have out there in another thread.

 

[Mary1973]

Excellent post. IMHO, the vigil Mass is just another instance of the dumbing down of the faith.

 

[Leopard]

More opportunities to worship and receive Jesus are a dumbing down of the Faith?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You might find this old thread helpful–please go to the FIFTH post down.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=73337

 

[benedictgal]

You also need to realize a couple of things. Those who work in the retail industry have had to open shop on Sundays (shopping wasn’t done on Sundays when I was growing up). Especially during Advent, when malls and shops are opening up at times when people are supposed to be in Church, having a Saturday Vigil helps those folks who must work on Sunday.

Furthermore, the Church is making the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass available with as much frequency as possible on the weekends so that more people can participate. She recognizes that there are circumstances beyond the faithful’s control wherein Sunday Mass participation would be difficult.

Now, the anticipated Sunday Vigil Mass on Saturday (later afternoon/evening) has nothing to do with the Jewish concept of sundown. The only time where sundown makes a significant difference is during the celebration of the Easter Vigil. Pascahalis Sacramentalis makes it very clear that parishes are prohibited from celebrating the Easter Vigil the same time that they have their anticipated Sunday Vigil Mass. This means that the Easter Vigil cannot start at 4:30PM on Saturday afternoon. The Easter Vigil must begin after sunset. In other words, it’s got to be dark outside.

I wholly accept Pope Benedict’s ascertion regarding Mass on Sunday morning; however, he also realizes that there are special circumstances that warrant having an anticipated Sunday Vigil Mass on Saturday (late afternoon/evening). Believe me, you won’t find anyone on this forum who toots the Benedict horn louder than I do.

Now, as far as having daily Mass on Saturdays, there are some churches that, because they only have one priest, may not have a ferial liturgy on that day. Although, when my PV (parochial vicar) served as our Cathedral’s first rector (and solo priest), he managed to celebrate Mass on Saturdays at 8AM (this, inspite of the fact that he also had several weddings every weekend, along with the anticipated Sunday vigil Mass). There are others who do not have a Saturday morning/noon Mass. I don’t have an answer other than the aforementioned one at the beginning of the paragraph.

I hope this helps.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Excellent post. IMHO, the vigil Mass is just another instance of the dumbing down of the faith.

Something tells me that you haven’t actually read Pope Pius XII 's document? I say this because I hate to break it to you but the Saturday “Vigil” Mass was instituted well before Vatican II.

 

[byers]

More opportunities to worship and receive Jesus are a dumbing down of the Faith?

Leopard, How I agree with you!. It was hardly a dumbing down. I think it was an act of mercy to allow the saturday evening masses to fulfill the sunday obligation. I am surprised at those who get so hung up on this and seem to feel a sense of superiority because they can go on Sunday morning.

For those who make the snide comments about those not wanting ‘to get up’ for Sunday morning Mass, I must remind you that many of those not at Sunday morning Mass, have been up hours before you …and they have gone to work!..they have to in order to make a living. Be thankful if you are not in this situation.

We are more and more in a society in which Sunday is just another day of the week and many do not have the option of not working on Sunday morning. So the Saturday evening mass is a great blessing for them. And there are many other very legitimate reasons for preferring that time. Blessed are the merciful.

To criticize when others attend their sunday duty is very judgmental. Reminds me of the pharisees complaining to Jesus that his apostles ate with unwashed hands.

I’m not sure where MarkF goes to Mass but in my archdiocese there is a regular saturday morning mass every week.

 

[MarkF]

“Furthermore, the Church is making the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass available with as much frequency as possible on the weekends so that more people can participate. She recognizes that there are circumstances beyond the faithful’s control wherein Sunday Mass participation would be difficult.”

This is an excellent point, thank you. But hasn’t the secularization of Sunday been abetted by a Church that lets its faithful go to Mass on Saturday evening? Isn’t this part of a slippery slope where one wrong action produces another, which in turn furthers the whole process?

I have a job where I won’t be able to get to Mass on Sundays in the spring, so I’ll get a special dispensation to make up for that. That’s reasonable. But what we have now is a Church that has changed the rules, has made Saturday into Sunday and has made the exception the rule.
Also, notice that those Protestant churches that are most filled do not have a Saturday vigil service. How do their faithful still manage to have both a work life and a life of faith that keeps Sunday holy?

“Something tells me that you haven’t actually read Pope Pius XII 's document? I say this because I hate to break it to you but the Saturday “Vigil” Mass was instituted well before Vatican II.”

Another excellent point, and something that I as a returning member was not aware of. When I wrote this, I was thinking that it seemed like people in the past had vigil Masses. Certainly the Christmas Eve Mass has a long tradition. But I know from growing up after Vatican II that something big changed to make the Saturday Vigil Mass so available.

I go the idea that Saturday counts as Sunday when its past sundown from my local priest. That’s my only source.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

“Furthermore, the Church is making the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass available with as much frequency as possible on the weekends so that more people can participate. She recognizes that there are circumstances beyond the faithful’s control wherein Sunday Mass participation would be difficult.”

This is an excellent point, thank you. But hasn’t the secularization of Sunday been abetted by a Church that lets its faithful go to Mass on Saturday evening? Isn’t this part of a slippery slope where one wrong action produces another, which in turn furthers the whole process?

I have a job where I won’t be able to get to Mass on Sundays in the spring, so I’ll get a special dispensation to make up for that. That’s reasonable. But what we have now is a Church that has changed the rules, has made Saturday into Sunday and has made the exception the rule.
Also, notice that those Protestant churches that are most filled do not have a Saturday vigil service. How do their faithful still manage to have both a work life and a life of faith that keeps Sunday holy?

“Something tells me that you haven’t actually read Pope Pius XII 's document? I say this because I hate to break it to you but the Saturday “Vigil” Mass was instituted well before Vatican II.”

Another excellent point, and something that I as a returning member was not aware of. When I wrote this, I was thinking that it seemed like people in the past had vigil Masses. Certainly the Christmas Eve Mass has a long tradition. But I know from growing up after Vatican II that something big changed to make the Saturday Vigil Mass so available.

I go the idea that Saturday counts as Sunday when its past sundown from my local priest. That’s my only source.

My point was that Saturday “Vigil” Mass was instituted well before Vatican II.

 

[MarkF]

I can only speak from my experience growing up. And that is that somewhere around 1970 or so, our parish added a new Saturday Vigil Mass that is counted as if it were Sunday.

Are you saying that the Saturday Vigil Mass was as common before Vatican II as it is now?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The Saturday ANTICIPATED Mass may not have been as widely celebrated or as commonly available to ‘the general public’ as before 1970, but it was not something ‘new’, nothing something ‘made up’ and ‘manufactured’ to ‘count like’ a Sunday Mass.

Did you read that thread I linked earlier?

 

[benedictgal]

This is an excellent point, thank you. But hasn’t the secularization of Sunday been abetted by a Church that lets its faithful go to Mass on Saturday evening? Isn’t this part of a slippery slope where one wrong action produces another, which in turn furthers the whole process?

I have a job where I won’t be able to get to Mass on Sundays in the spring, so I’ll get a special dispensation to make up for that. That’s reasonable. But what we have now is a Church that has changed the rules, has made Saturday into Sunday and has made the exception the rule.

Also, notice that those Protestant churches that are most filled do not have a Saturday vigil service. How do their faithful still manage to have both a work life and a life of faith that keeps Sunday holy?

I go the idea that Saturday counts as Sunday when its past sundown from my local priest. That’s my only source.

You can still go to Mass on Saturday late afternoon/evenings in order to satisfy your Sunday obligation. Furthermore, some parishes also offer a late afternoon/evening Mass on Sundays that you can attend if your schedule allows.

Yes, the secular world has made it difficult for those wanting to assist at Sunday Mass; however, the Church, in her merciful care for her children, allows us to participate on Saturday (late afternoon/evening).

As far as Protestants are concerned, attendance on Sunday is not a precept for them. They do not have the Holy Sacrifice and they consider Holy Communion a merely symbolic gesture. Of course, they also have Wednesday services (never understood that one), which, I would imagine, would carry a similar weight to Sunday service.

Nonetheless, they are not bound by the pains of mortal sin to attend their worship service because they don’t have the same structure or beliefs that we do, as Catholics. The requirement to assist at Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation is a precept of the Church that also falls under the scope of the Third Commandment (keep holy the Lord’s Day). But, as I’ve said earlier, and, as you, yourself have admitted, the Church allows her children to assist at Mass on Saturday (late afternoon/early evening) in order to satisfy the Sunday obligation.

Now, as I said in my previous post, the only instance where “sundown” makes a huge difference where Saturday is concerned is for the celebration of the Easter Vigil. It has to take place after sundown, meaning, after 8PM.

 

[Jenny_Z]

Excellent post. IMHO, the vigil Mass is just another instance of the dumbing down of the faith.

Wow.

You know, if my parish didn’t have Vigil Masses, not everyone would get to go to Mass, most likely… we have 5 masses on Sundays, and a vigil mass Saturday night, and all are packed, some standing room only.

Vigil mass is older than Vatican II. If I recall correctly, it takes root in Jewish tradition, as do quite a few of our traditions. As with any sacrament or Tradition in the church, it can be misused by folks, but that’s not the fault of the Mass itself.

Any extra opportunity to celebrate our Lord in the Eucharist is just fine with me, thanks.

 

[MarkF]

Tantum Ergo,

I did just read that thread you pointed too, and I accept that as far as I understand it. But the diocesan cathedral here lists it as “Saturday Vigil Mass.”

If I’m confused, it seems to be that some people in the Church are confused about it too.

Yes, we do also have the Sunday 5:00 PM Mass here too. I know that some have challenged the idea that the sun determines what day of the week it is, but that’s how the priest explained it to us a few weeks ago. I’m so new to this… but what and when are the vespers celebrated?

As to Protestants, it’s not that they don’t have the idea of missing Sunday service as a mortal sin that is key. It’s that they still know what day of the week Sunday is.

I know I’ll get into trouble for this, and I accept that it’s my guess, but it seems that most of the people who are at the Saturday 5:30 PM Mass are not those who are likely to work in retail. The people who work in retail are mostly younger and less affluent. What we have here are people in their 40’s and 50’s, well dressed professional people. What perhaps started out to be an act of support to people who might have to work on Sunday has turned out to be something else entirely.

And no one has taken up the point that Cardinal Ratzinger makes that time, space, matter, art, music and gestures are all sacred. He starts out his chapter on sacred space by asking if God is everywhere then why do we have to go to church to worship? Isn’t the correct worship just living a good life? He answers that question by explaining how Sunday morning represents the Risen Christ. His explanation says that we celebrate Sunday morning not out of simple commemoration, or out of an act of community that unites us all on the same day. He says that it brings in a real understanding of the Incarnation, and an understanding of the cosmic as well as the historical into our act of worship. This all is at least lessened, if not forgotten my Mass on Saturday evening. Is there any meaning to Sunday? If not, then we can just go to Mass any day of the week. If so, then what makes Sunday into Sunday? Is it the sun? Is it the liturgical schedule of that particular church, i.e., its schedule of vespers?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I can only speak from my experience growing up. And that is that somewhere around 1970 or so, our parish added a new Saturday Vigil Mass that is counted as if it were Sunday.

Are you saying that the Saturday Vigil Mass was as common before Vatican II as it is now?

Saturday Vigil was restored well before Vatican II. It was either Pope Pius XII or possibly even Pope Pius X who restored it. I’m not in a position to look it up at the moment.

 

[whatevergirl]

Excellent post. IMHO, the vigil Mass is just another instance of the dumbing down of the faith.

Interesting perspective. I have always viewed it as the RCC’s deep love for its flock and wanting people who might have obligations on Sunday, that prevent them from attending on Sunday–to be able to make the Sunday mass, through the vigil. I always look at these additions that our Church makes as a positive–the RCC shows its understanding by extending a Sunday mass to a vigil. Just my 2 cents.

 

[benedictgal]

As to Protestants, it’s not that they don’t have the idea of missing Sunday service as a mortal sin that is key. It’s that they still know what day of the week Sunday is.

I know I’ll get into trouble for this, and I accept that it’s my guess, but it seems that most of the people who are at the Saturday 5:30 PM Mass are not those who are likely to work in retail. The people who work in retail are mostly younger and less affluent. What we have here are people in their 40’s and 50’s, well dressed professional people. What perhaps started out to be an act of support to people who might have to work on Sunday has turned out to be something else entirely.

And no one has taken up the point that Cardinal Ratzinger makes that time, space, matter, art, music and gestures are all sacred. He starts out his chapter on sacred space by asking if God is everywhere then why do we have to go to church to worship? Isn’t the correct worship just living a good life? He answers that question by explaining how Sunday morning represents the Risen Christ. His explanation says that we celebrate Sunday morning not out of simple commemoration, or out of an act of community that unites us all on the same day. He says that it brings in a real understanding of the Incarnation, and an understanding of the cosmic as well as the historical into our act of worship. This all is at least lessened, if not forgotten my Mass on Saturday evening. Is there any meaning to Sunday? If not, then we can just go to Mass any day of the week. If so, then what makes Sunday into Sunday? Is it the sun? Is it the liturgical schedule of that particular church, i.e., its schedule of vespers?

The Church declared that the anticipated Sunday Vigil Mass begins no earlier than 4PM. I don’t think that you read any of my posts in their entirety. If you had, then you would have understood that the only time that sundown/sunset plays a factor in scheduling Saturday evening Mass is during the Easter Vigil.

Protestants do have some notion about Sunday; however, their various ecclesial communities do not obligate them to attend their services like our Church does. As I mentioned in my previous post, Protestant services are simply word-based with a sermon and lots of music. I have Protestant friends. If they miss their service, they are not entirely bent out of shape. In fact, one of my Baptist colleagues teases me because I like to go to Mass during my lunch hour.

Now, I have addressed what the Holy Father wrote regarding the cosmic understanding of liturgy. What he is trying to say is that we have lost our sense of the meaning of Sunday. We no longer regard it as a sacred and holy day because we are too busy planning recreational excursions and other activities. We have pretty much lost the real meaning of what it means to keep holy the Lord’s day. I do not think that he is condemning the idea of the anticipated Sunday vigil Mass that is celebrated Saturday late afternoon/evening. What concerns him the most is that we have lost the attitude that the North African martyrs had when they said that they “could not live without Sunday.” You need to look at the whole context of what he is saying and not isolate it.

 

[Truarchs]

This is an excellent thread, I enjoyed reading the original post and replies. I would like to offer the following from scripture:

5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
(Ge 1:5 RSV-CE)

Each day in the first creation story is described in this manner. The day begins in the evening. We have a rich tradition of both the presence and the anticipation of the presence.

My dilemma is the mass we go to is Sunday evening:shrug: . It’s a Lifeteen mass and my children love it. I don’t know how to reconcile that one but our bishop still considers it to meet our Sunday obligation. Personally, I would prefer to go Sunday morning.

 

[benedictgal]

This is an excellent thread, I enjoyed reading the original post and replies. I would like to offer the following from scripture:

Each day in the first creation story is described in this manner. The day begins in the evening. We have a rich tradition of both the presence and the anticipation of the presence.

My dilemma is the mass we go to is Sunday evening:shrug: . It’s a Lifeteen mass and my children love it. I don’t know how to reconcile that one but our bishop still considers it to meet our Sunday obligation. Personally, I would prefer to go Sunday morning.

I’ll be honest with you. I would stay away from Life Teen, especially with all of the abuses that have been associated with this particular Mass. However, Sunday evening Mass does satisfy the obligation.

When I was commuting between my hometown and Austin, I was grateful for the late afternoon Sunday Mass. Even though I had gone to the anticipated Sunday vigil Mass on Saturday with my parents (my mother had cancer towards the end of her life and so the Saturday evening Mass was a lot more tolerable for her–less people, which helps when you’re recovering from chemo). When my mother was first diagnosed with cancer, I resolved to go to Mass every day to pray for her cure. Even after she died, I never stopped going. The only time I didn’t go to Mass was when I came down with the flu and when I got pink eye (twice ). I still prayed on Sunday and was blessed enough to catch the Papal Mass as my fever was breaking.

Having said that, I sometimes like to attend my parish’s Sunday evening Mass. It is actually quiet and the music is not as bad as the others. When my PV celebrates it, the Mass is very reverent and almost contemplative. It’s even nicer when the cantor doesn’t come because we don’t have to deal with the OCP Spanish/bilingual stuff.

 

[thomasf]

I don’t understand the big deal. If you don’t like Saturday evenng mass, go to Sunday mass. If you can’t make Sundays, go to Saturday evening. I am perplexed as to why anyone would take issue with this. With the world in the state that it is today, is it really such a horrible thing that more people get to attend weekly mass by adding in the Saturday evening mass? Is it such a big deal that with the priest shortages, the church allows for extending the weekly mass to Saturday evening? I don’t understand the big deal with this.

[Edited by Moderator]