Does the Church lack a backbone?

[vinniesdad]

I recently finished “Triumph” a history of the Church. In reading it I got the idea (correct me if I am wrong) that the Church was much quicker or stricter in terms or doctrine and excommunicating those who, shall we say, deserved it. Now however we have renegade priests and those at “Catholic” institutions attacking nearly everything the Church stands for without so much as a slap on the hand. Am I the only one looking for the Church to stand up for herself and take a stand against this? Maybe a quick strike of denunciations and, if necessary, excommuntications would make me feel better.

 

[manualman]

Read Weigel’s biography of John Paul II.

I’m only just up to JP being made pope, but already I have learned a lot more respect for his approach to discipline.

In drastically short terms, the church since VaticanII has taken the approach that the teaching authority of the church works best when it seeks to inspire us by sound teaching and example rather than by beating dissenters and erroneous teachers with a stick.

Disgusted with what you see and hear around you? Sign up yourself to be a lector, RCIA instructor, CCD teacher, pro-life committee, NFP teacher, etc and proclaim the truth with love, charity and joyful conviction. JP felt this works much better than condemnation and whining.

Note that the church is NOT infallible in discipline or pastoral approach.

 

[vinniesdad]

You know, I have and I do work with RCIA and I have read the biography you speak of and it is wonderful. I just see how people like, Mario Cuomo who speaks for nothing the Church stands for brought out as a speaker on “Catholic issues” on TV and he speaks with authority seemingly on things he knows nothiing about. Or, and this made me laugh, an article talking about “devoted Catholic Jennifer Lopez” and a few sentences later talking about her meeting with her Santaria Priestess. I guess I think it allows scandle in the Church for those who don’t know enough about her.

 

[Steven_Merten]

vinniesdad:

I recently finished “Triumph” a history of the Church. In reading it I got the idea (correct me if I am wrong) that the Church was much quicker or stricter in terms or doctrine and excommunicating those who, shall we say, deserved it. Now however we have renegade priests and those at “Catholic” institutions attacking nearly everything the Church stands for without so much as a slap on the hand. Am I the only one looking for the Church to stand up for herself and take a stand against this? Maybe a quick strike of denunciations and, if necessary, excommuntications would make me feel better.

Hello vinniesdad,

I agree with how you are feeling. However, I have been hearing that Church leaders have watered down even excommunication. I do not know if they have actually made binding statements taking the soul damning effect out of excommunication or if they are just verbally watering it down to give the world an image of a “kinder gentler” Church. Excommunication used to mean that you went to hell if you did not repent and get the excommunication absolved or at least have the desire in your heart to get it absolved if you could not get to a priest. Now many are telling me that excommunication only means that you cannot recieve the Eucharist. Kind of funny that the Church would be so worried about a dying person getting their excommunication absolved before death if the person did not have time to get to communion anyway. In the modern Church way of looking at excommunication.

One poster told me that when JP2 redesigned the CCC in 1984 he totally abolished Anathema . Anathema is/was major excommunication which damns souls.

What I am saying is that it does no good to talk about administering more excommunications until excommunication itself has its bite put back into it.

Please visit Throwing Stones which takes a look at Jesus will for the Church to have some backbone.

AnathemaIn passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: “Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”

He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.

Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia. newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

 

[AlanFromWichita]

manualman:

In drastically short terms, the church since VaticanII has taken the approach that the teaching authority of the church works best when it seeks to inspire us by sound teaching and example rather than by beating dissenters and erroneous teachers with a stick.

Sounds a bit like Christ’s suggestions to let the weeds and grain grow up together.

Doesn’t this differ, though, whether you are a religious leader or lay teacher, or just plain lay person?

I’d think the Church would not want to be “patient” with those who use her authority to teach wrong, unless the principle applies just as well to leaders as to “Joe Sixpack.”

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Steven Merten:

Anathema

Thank you. I’ve always wondered what that meant but never looked it up before.

That sounds really cool and all that, but I couldn’t help noticing even this harsh rhetoric includes a bit of escape, might one dare say “relativism” unless I misunderstand it, which is understandable because I don’t understand some of the terms used.

This is the part that confused me: “so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”

Until that part, I had some real fire-and-brimstone imagining with all the dudes in their fancy robes saying all this terrible sounding stuff, and I thought I was hearing some really intense damnation going on. Then this little part about “so long as … judgment.”

What is that? Is that saying there is hope for the person if they turn around? Therefore anathema is conditional and not absolute? Gosh, if that’s true than we don’t even mean it when we say somebody is eternally damned. Sounds more like a warning than a damnation to me, but I do not claim to know that truth and leave it open for those more knowledgeable to correct me.

When we say “dmn you" to somebody do we not make a stronger statement than that, leaving no room for an out? I hardly ever hear a person say, "dmn you, unless you improve.”

One way I hope I might have misread, is that the anathema is supposed to prevent the damned to get out of it, by disallowing such behavior that might have saved him. If that’s the proper way to read this, then I am truly impressed at the strength of those damning words. If not, then I question whether it’s more relativism packaged so it will sound absolute.

I always wondered what “let him be anathema” meant. I’ve had some posters use that phrase against me. I think I like the idea that it is relativistic so that the next person who tries to ananthematize me, I can tell them that they’re words are not binding on me.

Alan

 

[Steven_Merten]

AlanFromWichita:

This is the part that confused me: “so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”
Alan

Hello Alan,

It is true that the main desire of the Church for using terrifying spiritual death Capital Punishment is to detter people from doing the sin and repentance. This is the same as America using physical capital punishment as a detterant. America, like the Church, would greatly rather people not commit henous crimes in the first place.

It is true that Jesus gave the Church the power to hold sins bound and to hold sins loost. If someone repents they can go to the Church and have the anathema removed. Also the Church, many times puts clauses in their anathemas to allow a person to repent on their own with out needing the Church to use the Christ given “keys to the kingdom” to loost what they have called upon Jesus to bind. This is because the thought of someone repenting at the last minuet and not having a priest handy to loost what is held bound (absolve) the anathema is such a terrifying thought to the Church. However, the Church does not always put these clauses in anathema.

I heard once that the Church never removed anathema from Martin Luther. It did not sound like the Church allowed a clause for Martin Luther to repent on his own without the Pope loosting the anathema. If the Church did not loost the anathema and no clause was put in place then he is damned. Jesus gave His oath to bind in heaven what ever Apostolic successors bind on earth.

We must remember that Pope John Paul II was a pacifist and very opposed to capital punishment. It would have greatly detracted from his worldly image to be warning Catholics about, the infinitely more deadly than physical capital punishment, anathema spiritual death Church punishments. So he remained silent about them and distracted the world attention to state less deadly physical capital punishments. Do not let yourself be decieved as to how deadly it can be for an Apostolic successor to use the “keys to the Kingdon” to call upon Jesus to bind souls to sin in heaven. It is not clear whether Pope John Paul II removed from anathema the Apostolic power to bind sins in heaven. Possibly he just hid the spiritually deadly power of auto anathemas.

Please visit Throwing Stones

Anathema**Although he is delivered to Satan and his **angels, he can still, and is even bound to repent. The Pontifical gives the form for absolving him and reconciling him with the Church. The promulgation of the anathema with such solemnity is well calculated to strike terror to the criminal and bring him to a state of repentance, especially if the Church adds to it the ceremony of the Maranatha.

The Church, animated by the spirit of God, does not wish the death of the sinner, but rather that he be converted and live. This explains why the most severe and terrifying formulas of excommunication, containing all the rigours of the Maranatha have, as a rule, clauses like this: Unless he becomes repentant, or gives satisfaction, or is corrected.

Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia
newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

 

[Steven_Merten]

AlanFromWichita:

Sounds a bit like Christ’s suggestions to let the weeds and grain grow up together.

Alan

Hello Alan,

Jesus commands His Church that if her hand is her undoing she is to “cut it off” and cast it into Gehenna. God’s biblical term “cut off” means to put to death. To cut off a limb from the body of the Church means to put an individual to death. Jesus tells His Church to cut off that limb which drags the body of the Church into hell and cast it into Gehenna. Anathema, cuts off a limb (an individual) from the body of the Church and casts it (the culprits) into hell. Lest that limb repents and gets the anathema absolved or the Church has a clause in the anathema so the culprit can repent on his own.

Please visit Throwing Stones

NAB LEV 20 Penalties for Various Sins.

**The LORD said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites: Anyone, whether an Israelite or an alien residing in Israel who gives any of his offspring to Molech shall be put to death. Let his fellow citizens stone him. I myself will turn against such a man and cut him off from the body of his people: for in giving his offspring to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name.”**NAB MAT 5:29 Occasions of Impurity. If your right eye is your trouble, gouge it out and throw it away! Better you lose part of your body than to have it all cast into Gehenna. Again if your right hand is your trouble, cut it off and throw it away! Better to lose part of your body than to have it all cast into Gehenna."

NAB NUM 15:30

"But anyone who sins defiantly, whether he be a native or and alien, insults the LORD, and shall be cut off from among his people. Since he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken his commandment, he must be cut off. He has only himself to blame." The Sabbath-breaker. While the Israelites were in the desert,** a man was discovered gathering wood on the sabbath day**. Those who caught him at it brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly. But they kept him in custody, for there was no clear decision as to what should be done with him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "This man shall be put to death; let the whole community stone him outside the camp." So the whole community led him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

**NAB MAT 18:5 **

"Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna.

NAB EXO 21:23

"But if injury ensues, you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,… "​

INT EXO 31:14

“Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people .’” **INT JOB 27:8 **

For what hope has the godless when he is cut off, when God takes away his life?**NAB WIS 18:23 **

For when corpses had already fallen one on another in heaps, he stood in the midst and checked his anger, and cut off the way to the living. **NAB EZE 14:13 **

Son of man, when a land sins against me by breaking faith, I stretch out my hand against it and break its staff of bread, I let famine loose upon it and cut off form it both man and beast; and even if these three men were in it, Noah, Daniel, and Job, they could only save themselves by their virtue, says the LORD God.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Steven,

Thank you for the excellent replies. I have not finished studying the references you cited, but it’s almost starting to make some sense to me.

Alan

 

[Steven_Merten]

The Sword of Christ’s Mouth

Scripture tells us that with the breath of His lips, Jesus slays the wicked. When Jesus proclaims a person bound to their sins in heaven, with the breath of His lips, that person is slain to damnation. It is with this sword of His mouth that Jesus shepards His people.

It is through Christ’s blood that He recieves the power to judge, to hold loost and to hold bound. Scripture tells us that Archangel Michael slays the devil by the power of the blood of the Lamb. It is my speculation that the weapon Archangel Michael uses to slay the devil is Sword of Christ’s mouth. This is because the “iron rod” of Christ’s mouth is related to close to the scriptures of Archangel Micheal slaying the devil, Micheal’s slaying of the devil is not of his own power but by the power of the blood of the Lamb, and we know that, like Apostolic Successors, others can wield the sword of Christ’s mouth. They wield it through Christ’s sworn oath that He will hold sins bound of anyone that He is called upon to do so by those He has given the authority to do so. We often pray to Archangle Micheal for protection. Could not this same weapon, the Sword of Christ’s mouth, be involved if Archangel Micheal were to protect us in spiritual battle on earth today?

Let us pray that St. Peter regain his strength in our era of time. In the Spirit of Micheal the Archangel, let us pray that Apostolic Successors draw Christs sword and wield it upon the foe. Let us pray that the St. Peter of our day, the Pope and Bishops, protect and defend Christ’s Bride the Church on earth with the weoponry Christ has armed them with. Let them shepard as Jesus shepards.

Please visit Throwing Stones

NAB REV 12:5

She gave birth to a son–a boy destined to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and to his throne. The woman herself fled into the desert, where a special place had been prpared for her by God; there she was taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.

Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon. Although the dragon and his angels fought back, they were overpowered and lost their place in heaven. The huge dragon, the ancient serpent known as the devil or Satan, the seducer of the whole world, was driven out; he was hurled down to earth and his minions with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have salvation and power come, the reign of our God and the authority of his Anointed One. For the accuser of our brothers is cast out, who night and day accused them before our God. They defeated him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; love for life did not deter them from death.

**NAB REV 19:11 **The King of Kings.

Out of his mouth came a sharp sword for striking down the nations. He will shepherd them with an iron rod; it is he who will tread out in the winepress the blazing wrath of God the Almighty. NAB REV 1:16

A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. When I caught sight of him I fell down at his feet as though dead, he touched me with his right hand and said: “There is nothing to fear. I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but not I live-- forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and the nether world.”

NAB MAT 16:13

I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
**NAB ISA 11:4 **The Rule of Immanuel

He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked. NAB MAT 18:17

“If he ignores them, refer it to the church . If he ignores even the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. I assure you, whatever you declare bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be held loosed in heaven.”