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Fludgecow101
Guest
Can the Church make errors or does papal infability prevent this? Can someone explain this to me? Do you believe the Church has made errors? (Like with Vatican II and the NO Mass…)
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thistle
Guest
The Church CANNOT make errors in matters of faith and morals.
It is protected by the Holy Spirit.
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TheDoctor
Guest
Church councils are not errors. Holy Mass is not an error. The error arises in our implementation of the edicts of councils and deviations from the liturgy.
Search the main Catholic Answers page for “infalability” for more info.
Search the main Catholic Answers page for “infalability” for more info.
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terrysa
Guest
The Church is the people of God. People make errors. Therefore people of the church are not immune to making errors. The church’s treatment of Galileo and Darwin, for example. Not making a strong enough stand against naziism during the holocaust, for another (remember the Pope making a public apology for this on behalf of the church?)
HOWEVER, when it comes to the central teachings of faith and morals, we believe that the Pope’s teachings, when he speaks ex cathedra, (“from the chair”, or formally) are infallible, because of the authority Jesus gave to the church. Jesus gave this authority to the church, when he told the apostles "“He who hears you hears me” (Luke 10:16), and he gave this authority particularly to Simon, to whom he gave the name “Peter” (meaning the rock) saying: “You are Peter and on this rock I will build my church. And the gates of the underworld can never over power it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven…”
Jesus commissioned his disciples to teach them all the commands He had taught, and said He would be present in His church until the end of time:
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teach them to observe all the commands I gave you. And look, I am with you always; yes, to the end of time.”(Matt.28:16.) (Notice that he commissioned them to teach the commands He had taught them - they don’t have the authority to introduce completely new doctrine!)
So, we believe that He Himself is guiding the church that He instituted, and is protecting it from error.
Hope this helps…God bless!
HOWEVER, when it comes to the central teachings of faith and morals, we believe that the Pope’s teachings, when he speaks ex cathedra, (“from the chair”, or formally) are infallible, because of the authority Jesus gave to the church. Jesus gave this authority to the church, when he told the apostles "“He who hears you hears me” (Luke 10:16), and he gave this authority particularly to Simon, to whom he gave the name “Peter” (meaning the rock) saying: “You are Peter and on this rock I will build my church. And the gates of the underworld can never over power it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven…”
Jesus commissioned his disciples to teach them all the commands He had taught, and said He would be present in His church until the end of time:
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teach them to observe all the commands I gave you. And look, I am with you always; yes, to the end of time.”(Matt.28:16.) (Notice that he commissioned them to teach the commands He had taught them - they don’t have the authority to introduce completely new doctrine!)
So, we believe that He Himself is guiding the church that He instituted, and is protecting it from error.
Hope this helps…God bless!
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Fludgecow101
Guest
Yes this helped me understand better, thank you.
But do Traditional Catholics think these changes in the Catholic Church in the past 50 years mistakes or bad things. Can one of you explain? Thanks.
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Cluny
Guest
Not making a strong enough stand against naziism during the holocaust, for another (remember the Pope making a public apology for this on behalf of the church?)
Actions speak louder than words, and the actions of Pius XII were strong enough.
However, you are right. Papal infallibility as defined by Vatican I does NOT prevent the pope (much less anyone else) from making prudential errors in a pastoral judgement.
Actions speak louder than words, and the actions of Pius XII were strong enough.
However, you are right. Papal infallibility as defined by Vatican I does NOT prevent the pope (much less anyone else) from making prudential errors in a pastoral judgement.
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John_Higgins
Guest
Of course it does.
John
John
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tr1strev
Guest
Yes through the humans that make up the body of the church. There have been terrible Popes who have made mistakes and certainly there have been errors of condemning the likes of Joan of Arc, who was later made a saint by the same church that burned her. So yes if in “the Church” you mean the humans that have formed it over 2000+ years.
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Cluny
Guest
** Of course it does.**
If you’re referring to Papal Infallibility preventing mistakes in pastoral judgement, this is NOT what the definition actually says.
Infallibility is carefully limited to matters of faith and morals ONLY under certain defined conditions.
If you’re referring to Papal Infallibility preventing mistakes in pastoral judgement, this is NOT what the definition actually says.
Infallibility is carefully limited to matters of faith and morals ONLY under certain defined conditions.
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Timothysis
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You obviously know nothing about the story of St. Joan of Arc.
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tr1strev
Guest
Are you going to honestly say that the church had NOTHING to do with her trial and subsequent execution? If so, then you know nothing.You obviously know nothing about the story of St. Joan of Arc.
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Timothysis
Guest
Joan of Arc’s execution was more about politics than religion. She was railroaded in her trial, excommunicated and burnt at the stake by a bishop who hoped to secure some rich provinces for himself by disposing of Joan for the English. Her family appealed to the Vatican who, after studying the situation, declared her innocent and ruled that the excommunication was invalid. In 1920, she was formally canonized. The institution of “the Church” had nothing to do with her death; it was a renegade bishop who did.
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maurin
Guest
and just so you know, I rarely agree with Timothysis, but his explanation, though brief and concise, is pretty much spot on. Good post, Tim.
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Timothysis
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Corki
Guest
I think you will find that “traditionalists” are not of one mind with regard to what the Church does or has done. There is quite a range of opinions among those that label themselves traditionalist.Yes this helped me understand better, thank you.
But do Traditional Catholics think these changes in the Catholic Church in the past 50 years mistakes or bad things. Can one of you explain? Thanks.
Many people, including some who would not call themselves traditionalists, think that many of the things done in the wake of VII were mistakes. Some of them were, for sure. An example is the gutting of many churches and the removal of statues, altar rails, tabernacles. This was done in the “name” of VII when, in fact the council did not address this at all.
Another mistake was the English translation of the Mass. The actual documents of VII have not been followed, for the most part, where they call for the retention of Latin in certain parts of the Mass and the importance of all Catholics knowing the main Mass prayers in Latin. The first two translations were also awful. Even the Vatican said so at the time but gave temporarary approval for thier use. Was that a mistake? Should they have sent the translators back to the drawing board? Maybe.
But all of this is a matter of discipline and practice, not faith and morals. So, the fact that the Church made errors in these areas does not have anything to do with papal infallibility.
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Ad_Deum
Guest
Pax Christi
I believe that the Church made many errors; in the Scripture we read that only one in the seven churches mentioned in Revelation or Apocalypse had endured patiently (Rev. 3:7-13). There is none prefect only Jesus Christ, and His words are infallible or does not contain error. We human has sinful nature therefore we could make mistake even our church leaders, the apostles and saints too many of them proclaimed their unworthiness to God because of their sins. So to say that the church (people) cannot make any error is unbiblical and sin to God. There is only a faithful church no infallible church. In regards with moral, values, and execution of the Magisterium, Biblical teachings, and liturgy it is questionable… Pope Benedict XVI is doing a great job of reviving the life of the Church, I see more conservative values preached and traditional elements imposed.
Good day to all
I believe that the Church made many errors; in the Scripture we read that only one in the seven churches mentioned in Revelation or Apocalypse had endured patiently (Rev. 3:7-13). There is none prefect only Jesus Christ, and His words are infallible or does not contain error. We human has sinful nature therefore we could make mistake even our church leaders, the apostles and saints too many of them proclaimed their unworthiness to God because of their sins. So to say that the church (people) cannot make any error is unbiblical and sin to God. There is only a faithful church no infallible church. In regards with moral, values, and execution of the Magisterium, Biblical teachings, and liturgy it is questionable… Pope Benedict XVI is doing a great job of reviving the life of the Church, I see more conservative values preached and traditional elements imposed.
Good day to all
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FCEGM
Guest
I find this rather strange coming from one who claims to be a Catholic (Orthodox and Traditional). The members of the Church (including Bishops and Popes) can indeed be in error, but there can be no error in what is to be believed regarding Faith and Morals as taught by Christ through the Magisterial Office of His Church. The Book of Revelation simply illustrates the frailty of human nature to be obedient to Christ; it doesn’t give us a lesson that we cannot be certain in what is to believed and practiced.
The Church, Christ’s Mystical Body, can not be separated from Him, and already has access to the whole of Christ in His fullness (if it did not we would have no access to His perfection which flows from Him to the members); but the individual members reflect it to varying degrees. Christ extended in us is the Church. Thus only what is done out of this union with Christ in us is the Church, such as teaching on faith or morals by the Magisterium, the sacramental life of the Church, the acts of virtue done in grace by the faithful, above all the lives of heroic sanctity of the Saints.
When man was reconciled to God by and in His Son, the Catholic Church - the Incarnation extended in time and place - became the means by which humanity could enter into the New Covenant in the Blood of Christ. Through the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, God dispenses the Grace (Divine Life) - especially through the sacramental life - to bring all people to Himself. The Church in its essence (Christ) is holy, but individual members can be, and often are, sinful, even dreadfully so.
Only what is done out of this union with Christ in us is the Church, such as teaching on faith or morals by the Magisterium, the sacramental life of the Church, the acts of virtue done in grace by the faithful, above all the lives of heroic sanctity of the Saints. All this is Christ IN US who cooperate with Him. The errors in teaching by individuals or sections of the Church, the moral failures, the exercises in poor judgment, the omission of doing good when the circumstances require it, all this is done not by virtue of union with Christ, but by virtue of sinners’ own initiative as first cause themselves, and thus not by the Church. It takes divine faith that the Church is this Great Mystery of union between Christ and His Body to see this.
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jean8
Guest
thisle,
Are you blaming the errors on the Holy Spirit?
Of course people make errors God does not. Some folks choose to go their own way. Others follow without taking heed as to what is occuring. Now we have more following the follower of nothing.
It’s time to pray, then pick up your Bible and read it everyday. The Holy Spirit will be there to guide you. Questions? of course, ask your pastor.
God bless,
jean
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jean8
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Cluny
Guest
It’s time to pray, then pick up your Bible and read it everyday. The Holy Spirit will be there to guide you. Questions? of course, ask your pastor.
And how do you know your pastor is not in error?
How do you know that YOU are protected from error, even if you don’t go to your pastor? (You might have never articulated this idea before, but I think that deep down inside, most Protestants believe this notion.)
The Church simply does not err in what she teaches that concerns faith and morals in what has been defined as such (eg, an Ecumenical council).
But even Papal Infallibilty, as promulgated by Vatican 1, as strict limits, and it does NOT mean that the Church in general or even the Pope cannot make a simple prudential error in matters that do NOT concern faith and morals.
To give an example that nobody will really care about (because probably most people don’t know): In the early 1900’s, Popes Pius X and XI promulgated a new revision of the Roman Breviary that had a totally novel redistribution of the Psalter and many simplifications.
The arrangement of the Psalms was totally unlike ANYTHING that had ever been done in Western liturgy for 1900 or so years.
Was it a bad idea and error in judgement? I personally think so.
Did it change faith or morals? No.
And how do you know your pastor is not in error?
How do you know that YOU are protected from error, even if you don’t go to your pastor? (You might have never articulated this idea before, but I think that deep down inside, most Protestants believe this notion.)
The Church simply does not err in what she teaches that concerns faith and morals in what has been defined as such (eg, an Ecumenical council).
But even Papal Infallibilty, as promulgated by Vatican 1, as strict limits, and it does NOT mean that the Church in general or even the Pope cannot make a simple prudential error in matters that do NOT concern faith and morals.
To give an example that nobody will really care about (because probably most people don’t know): In the early 1900’s, Popes Pius X and XI promulgated a new revision of the Roman Breviary that had a totally novel redistribution of the Psalter and many simplifications.
The arrangement of the Psalms was totally unlike ANYTHING that had ever been done in Western liturgy for 1900 or so years.
Was it a bad idea and error in judgement? I personally think so.
Did it change faith or morals? No.
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