Does the Church oppose democratic socialism?

  • Thread starter Thread starter EphelDuath
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
E

EphelDuath

Guest
I know Pope John Paul II criticized socialism and communism, but he lived primarily in an era when it was characterized by illiberal, corrupt governments. Today, countries like Norway, Spain and Italy are currently under socialist regimes and have extremely high quality-of-life indexes. That plus Acts 2:42-45 and 4:32-37 should be indicative that Christianity shouldn’t be hostile to all forms of distributism.
 
I know Pope John Paul II criticized socialism and communism, but he lived primarily in an era when it was characterized by illiberal, corrupt governments. Today, countries like Norway, Spain and Italy are currently under socialist regimes and have extremely high quality-of-life indexes. That plus Acts 2:42-45 and 4:32-37 should be indicative that Christianity shouldn’t be hostile to all forms of distributism.
I think that, before one can approach such a question, one has to discern the difference between American and European concepts of ‘socialism’ - from a European perspective, to call the government of Italy ‘socialist’, for example, is just silly. Does it pursue the common ownership of production, distribution and exchange? No it doesn’t, so it isn’t ‘socialist’. [From an American perspective, since many of its members, if they were American, would be seen reading the New York Times and voting Democrat, they’d be considered ‘socialist’.]

One of the major recurrent themes of Western European politics is the concept of ‘social democracy’ which means, in one way or another, social insurance schemes covering large aspects of life. This particular European hasn’t noticed media Cardinals complaining much about that.
 
[From an American perspective, since many of its members, if they were American, would be seen reading the New York Times and voting Democrat, they’d be considered ‘socialist’.]
Actually I believe that an American trying to institute European style Social Democracy would be a reader of The Nation and voting for the Green Party. I think I read somewhere that though Hillary is seen as a liberal in America (and has sometimes been given the epithet of “socialist” by opponents for her personal views on the free market and individualism), if she ran in Europe it would be under the banner of conservatism.

Anyway, I don’t think the Church condemns anything with “socialist” in it’s name. The Church seems to withhold condemnation of political ideals unless they are actually dangerous like Communism.
 
I know Pope John Paul II criticized socialism and communism, but he lived primarily in an era when it was characterized by illiberal, corrupt governments. Today, countries like Norway, Spain and Italy are currently under socialist regimes and have extremely high quality-of-life indexes. That plus Acts 2:42-45 and 4:32-37 should be indicative that Christianity shouldn’t be hostile to all forms of distributism.
The Church condemns socialism. Always has. Always will.

I would refer you to the following:

+Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscum (1849):18. As regards this teaching and these theories, it is now generally known that the special goal of their proponents is to introduce to the people the pernicious fictions of Socialism and Communism by misapplying the terms “liberty” and “equality.” The final goal shared by these teachings, whether of Communism or Socialism, even if approached differently, is to excite by continuous disturbances workers and others, especially those of the lower class, whom they have deceived by their lies and deluded by the promise of a happier condition. They are preparing them for plundering, stealing, and usurping first the Church’s and then everyone’s property. After this they will profane all law, human and divine, to destroy divine worship and to subvert the entire ordering of civil societies.
  1. But if the faithful scorn both the fatherly warnings of their pastors and the commandments of the Christian Law recalled here, and if they let themselves be deceived by the present-day promoters of plots, deciding to work with them in their perverted theories of Socialism and Communism, let them know and earnestly consider what they are laying up for themselves. The Divine Judge will seek vengeance on the day of wrath. Until then no temporal benefit for the people will result from their conspiracy, but rather new increases of misery and disaster. For man is not empowered to establish new societies and unions which are opposed to the nature of mankind.
32…They see clearly that when the authority of bishops is oppressed and when increasing numbers of men infringe divine and ecclesiastical commandments without penalty, then the respect of the people for civil authority is likewise diminished. Similarly, the present enemies of public calm instigate revolts against the government more easily. They observe too that the frequent seizure, robbery and open sale of temporal goods which belong to the Church shows a decrease in the people’s respect for property consecrated to the use of religion. Consequently the men who rashly proclaim Socialism and * Communism* find many prepared to listen to them when they falsely claim that in other similar cases, the property of others can be taken and divided or in some other way turned to the use of everyone. They furthermore observe that the long-standing impediments preventing the pastors of the Church from exercising their sacred authority freely are now gradually affecting civil authority.
Leo XIII, Quod Apostolici Muneris (On Socialism) (1878):
9…For, while the socialists would destroy the “right” of property, alleging it to be a human invention altogether opposed to the inborn equality of man, and, claiming a community of goods, argue that poverty should not be peaceably endured, and that the property and privileges of the rich may be rightly invaded…

(Note: Read the entire encyclical…far too much to quote here)
Leo XIII, Graves de Communi Re (On Christian Democracy) (1901)
  1. What Social Democracy is and what Christian Democracy ought to be, assuredly no one can doubt. The first, with due consideration to the greater or less intemperance of its utterance, is carried to such an excess by many as to maintain that there is really nothing existing above the natural order of things, and that the acquirement and enjoyment of corporal and external goods constitute man’s happiness. It aims at putting all government in the hands of the masses, reducing all ranks to the same level, abolishing all distinction of class, and finally introducing community of goods. Hence, the right to own private property is to be abrogated, and whatever property a man possesses, or whatever means of livelihood he has, is to be common to all.
  2. As against this, Christian Democracy, by the fact that it is Christian, is built, and necessarily so, on the basic principles of divine faith, and it must provide better conditions for the masses, with the ulterior object of promoting the perfection of souls made for things eternal. Hence, for Christian Democracy, justice is sacred; it must maintain that the right of acquiring and possessing property cannot be impugned, and it must safeguard the various distinctions and degrees which are indispensable in every wellordered commonwealth. Finally, it must endeavor to preserve in every human society the form and the character which God ever impresses on it. It is clear, therefore, that there in nothing in common between Social and Christian Democracy. They differ from each other as much as the sect of socialism differs from the profession of Christianity.Of course, I am certain you have read Rerum Novarum, but the documents above are critical early statements of the Church’s position against Socialism…including so-called “Christian” implementations of the same.
 
I know Pope John Paul II criticized socialism and communism, but he lived primarily in an era when it was characterized by illiberal, corrupt governments. Today, countries like Norway, Spain and Italy…
The Italian government is rife with corruption. I’m unfamiliar with the governments of the other two nations.
…are currently under socialist regimes and have extremely high quality-of-life indexes.
According to whom?
That plus Acts 2:42-45 and 4:32-37 should be indicative that Christianity shouldn’t be hostile to all forms of distributism.
Distributism in the NT was strictly voluntary. The early Church did not confiscate people’s goods and then distribute them to others based on the dictates of a government bureaucracy.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Distributism in the NT was strictly voluntary. The early Church did not confiscate people’s goods and then distribute them to others based on the dictates of a government bureaucracy.
I came back specifically to address that point (that you beat me to). This is a HUGE difference between what was advocated and commended by the Church and what modernist governments (and some deluded Catholics) endorse.

One of the most famous (semi-) contemporary Catholics quoted to support this was Dorothy Day. But if you read her writings, you see how she comes to the same conclusion. Voluntary poverty is good and commendable. State-imposed redistribution is an evil.
 
Actually I believe that an American trying to institute European style Social Democracy would be a reader of The Nation and voting for the Green Party. I think I read somewhere that though Hillary is seen as a liberal in America (and has sometimes been given the epithet of “socialist” by opponents for her personal views on the free market and individualism), if she ran in Europe it would be under the banner of conservatism.
My tongue was firmly in my cheek when I wrote what I did [based on experience of the balance of political views on CAF 🙂 ].

As you suggest, ‘conservative’ means different things as well - even right wing European conservatives (like Margaret Thatcher) only tinker with the ‘social democrat’ heritage rather than trying to abolish it (even those who may dream of it know that it would be certain political suicide).
Anyway, I don’t think the Church condemns anything with “socialist” in it’s name. The Church seems to withhold condemnation of political ideals unless they are actually dangerous like Communism.
I think that many conversations about what the Church may or may not have said a long time ago are based on assumptions that have been overtaken by events. The European ‘socialist’ parties and trades unions of the time had a Marxist background (with the notable exception of the British ‘Labour Party’ which had a very great deal of support from the Catholic working class as well as those of other religions - the British trades unions pre-dated Marxism and were highly suspicious of it). After the First World War, the development of Communist Parties (large everywhere but Britain) meant that the ‘socialist’ parties began the development into the modern ‘social democrat’ parties that have been such a feature of post-Second World War Europe.
 
Definitions are the hardest part of this conversation. At what point is a government ‘socialist?’ A purely socialist country would be one in which free elections and free speech were preserved, but the government owned and controlled the means of production (at least in those industries considered ‘essential’ like food production, housing, health care and education).

But is a country with socialized health care and education socialist if private individuals and companies still own the farms, homes and means of development? I think not.

It is a grey area. The Church has been clear (early 1900’s encyclical, I forget the name) that excessive concentration of power and wealth in the hands of either the few at the top of government or the few at the top of an unhealthy oligarchy are equally unjust and undesireable. Private ownership and control of property and assets in a system the encourages hard work and inventiveness is ideal. It has the nice side effect of generally distributing wealth widely.
 
I believe the answer would be “no.” In all of the countries being discussed, including the US, there is a blend of capitalism (free market and private ownership) and socialism (in its more general sense - government-run programs as opposed to government ownership of businesses). The question we all get to disagree with each other on and debate as vigorously as we wish, is the balance of the two. The Church doesn’t seem to take a strong position on what the balance should be - only that pure capitalism and pure socialism are not good.
 
  1. What Social Democracy is and what Christian Democracy ought to be, assuredly no one can doubt. The first, with due consideration to the greater or less intemperance of its utterance, is carried to such an excess by many as to maintain that there is really nothing existing above the natural order of things, and that the acquirement and enjoyment of corporal and external goods constitute man’s happiness. It aims at putting all government in the hands of the masses, reducing all ranks to the same level, abolishing all distinction of class, and finally introducing community of goods. Hence, the right to own private property is to be abrogated, and whatever property a man possesses, or whatever means of livelihood he has, is to be common to all.
.
This refers to communism. The question is better put
But is a country with socialized health care and education socialist if private individuals and companies still own the farms, homes and means of development?

.
In other words does the Catholic Church oppose tax dollars being spent on schools, healthcare etc.
 
People can twist the definition’s all they want to, but in Europe you have heavy taxation on the individual and business as well as subsidies. They own the means of production by this manner! Also, in Europe the sanctity of life is virtually gone! As well as the number of individuals who attend church services!
 
People can twist the definition’s all they want to, but in Europe you have heavy taxation on the individual and business
Rather depends on the country you’re talking about.
as well as subsidies.
Something you’d never find in the good ol’USofA, of course.
They own the means of production by this manner!
You’d have to establish that - perhaps taking examples from different industries in various sectors of the economy might help to convince. You’ve also got to tie-in ‘distribution and exchange’ to get to ‘socialism’ but we’ve got all the time in the world.
Also, in Europe the sanctity of life is virtually gone!
Lower abortion rates than the US, so obviously on your basis, the sanctity of life has entirely gone from the US. Quite what this has to do with the subject at hand I expect only you know, by the way.
As well as the number of individuals who attend church services!
And virtually nobody plays baseball or ‘American Football’ either.
 
But if you read her writings, you see how she comes to the same conclusion. Voluntary poverty is good and commendable. State-imposed redistribution is an evil.
I have a problem with that conclusion, that we should maintain personal charities in order to retain the “good works” element of it. So we should let the poor suffer in order to get a few brownie points with God?

I’m not seeing how government-mandated welfare is somehow morally worse than personally-mandated charity. God wants us to help the poor, and if we can do that with democracy, then why not?
 
I have a problem with that conclusion, that we should maintain personal charities in order to retain the “good works” element of it. So we should let the poor suffer in order to get a few brownie points with God?

I’m not seeing how government-mandated welfare is somehow morally worse than personally-mandated charity. God wants us to help the poor, and if we can do that with democracy, then why not?
The argument from the right goes like this:

The gospel call to charity (the THEOLOGICAL definition) is a two edged sword. First it changes the heart of the giver in that he sees the effect of his gift and grows in Grace because of it. Second, the receiver not only receives material benefit, but sees that the true SOURCE of that gift is the love of God acting in the heart of the giver.

When all this is replaced by a system of taxation and bureaucratic handout, neither the giver (taxpayer) nor the recipient receive any of the spiritual benefits of true charity. Instead, the recipient takes his ‘right’ to receive for granted, the taxpayer only sees a burden and so resents it. Charity is gutted of its spiritual meaning and all that remains is mere material transfer of assets.

Some people use this argument merely as a way to eliminate the need to spend money on the poor altogether. But that abuse of the logic does not negate the logic of the argument.
 
If the people giving are interested in helping the people receiving, then they might care about what actually works. Charity does not pay the rent of someone who is ill, charity won’t help you out with insurance premiums, and charity certainly won’t provide affordable education for children.
 
The argument from the right goes like this:

The gospel call to charity (the THEOLOGICAL definition) is a two edged sword. First it changes the heart of the giver in that he sees the effect of his gift and grows in Grace because of it. Second, the receiver not only receives material benefit, but sees that the true SOURCE of that gift is the love of God acting in the heart of the giver.

When all this is replaced by a system of taxation and bureaucratic handout, neither the giver (taxpayer) nor the recipient receive any of the spiritual benefits of true charity. Instead, the recipient takes his ‘right’ to receive for granted, the taxpayer only sees a burden and so resents it. Charity is gutted of its spiritual meaning and all that remains is mere material transfer of assets.

Some people use this argument merely as a way to eliminate the need to spend money on the poor altogether. But that abuse of the logic does not negate the logic of the argument.
Pretty good synopsis, but it’s not the argument from the right. It IS the argument from the Church:** 187. **The principle of subsidiarity protects people from abuses by higher-level social authority and calls on these same authorities to help individuals and intermediate groups to fulfil their duties. This principle is imperative because every person, family and intermediate group has something original to offer to the community. Experience shows that the denial of subsidiarity, or its limitation in the name of an alleged democratization or equality of all members of society, limits and sometimes even destroys the spirit of freedom and initiative.
The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to certain forms of centralization, bureaucratization, and welfare assistance and to the unjustified and excessive presence of the State in public mechanisms. “By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending”[400]. An absent or insufficient recognition of private initiative — in economic matters also — and the failure to recognize its public function, contribute to the undermining of the principle of subsidiarity, as monopolies do as well.
In order for the principle of subsidiarity to be put into practice there is a corresponding need for: respect and effective promotion of the human person and the family; ever greater appreciation of associations and intermediate organizations in their fundamental choices and in those that cannot be delegated to or exercised by others; the encouragement of private initiative so that every social entity remains at the service of the common good, each with its own distinctive characteristics; the presence of pluralism in society and due representation of its vital components; safeguarding human rights and the rights of minorities; bringing about bureaucratic and administrative decentralization; striking a balance between the public and private spheres, with the resulting recognition of the social function of the private sphere; appropriate methods for making citizens more responsible in actively “being a part” of the political and social reality of their country.
** 188. **Various circumstances may make it advisable that the State step in to supply certain functions[401]. One may think, for example, of situations in which it is necessary for the State itself to stimulate the economy because it is impossible for civil society to support initiatives on its own. One may also envision the reality of serious social imbalance or injustice where only the intervention of the public authority can create conditions of greater equality, justice and peace. In light of the principle of subsidiarity, however, this institutional substitution must not continue any longer than is absolutely necessary, since justification for such intervention is found only in the exceptional nature of the situation. In any case, the common good correctly understood, the demands of which will never in any way be contrary to the defence and promotion of the primacy of the person and the way this is expressed in society, must remain the criteria for making decisions concerning the application of the principle of subsidiarity.
- Pontifical Council on Justice and Peace,
Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church.

As a fully-certified member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy™, I can tell you that the FULL scenario you discussed would require some seriously polyannish assumptions, at a bare minimum. It assumes that the massive cultural shift in the attitude of the “entitled” class (those who receive government entitlements) would be capable of shifting back to what it was, prior to the massive damage caused to their souls as a result of the socialistic policies implemented since the 1930s. It also assumes that those with surplus would be able to be convinced to adopt an attitude of philanthropy. Neither of those options, in our materialistic society, are very bloody likely (IMHO).

Therefore, my honest assessment is that it won’t EVER be fixed until there is a VERY painful economic revolution that throws off the desire to meddle with socialism for many, many generations. Such a revolution will only occur when we have collapsed on the weight of our own feeling of entitlement. But one is likely to occur in the not TOO distant future.

Have you seen the latest report from the Social Security Trustees? The “Social Assistance State” will start losing money in 2017. The reserves will be depleted about 25-30 years after that point. How are you in macroeconomics? (The only alternative was to cut benefits and triple the FICA tax…and that will kill people in of itself)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top