Does the church permit socialism?

[BackHand]

So all government (with the collectivization it requires to function on any level) leads to ruin and poverty? C’mon now…

Not all Governments just the one run by lefties, like Greece, Soviet Union, China, Venezuela, Cuba, ect.

Then you agree, some form of socialization is beneficial as leaving things like roads as privatized would raise an issue.
And the purely privatized economy does exist in places. Somalia comes to mind. I’m sure we agree that’s not an ideal situation.
Oh, and the rural internet company is still subject to government oversight per the FCC in the US.

The government should regulate things but to a very small extent the FCC does not make the businesses decisions of Comcast nor should the state be in complete charge of building roads.

I quite agree. But decentralizing environmental regulation is a bit of a fools errand. Take Trump’s recent view to perhaps leave environmental regulation more to states.
Is the pollution dumped into the Mississippi river from the state of Missouri going to magically stop when it reaches Arkansas? Of course not.

If a corporation dumps waste into a river or pollutes my ground water then they have damaged my property and should be held accountable. But we don’t need a huge government bureaucracy to prosecute them.

Then you need to learn how to “adult-up”.

Said the person who wants free stuff form the state.

And if you’re not sick? Give it time. The body fails as you age. Unless you suffer a quick, traumatic death you will develop some chronic illness. To quote my urologist:
“Every man on the planet will get prostate cancer. The only question is if something else kills him first.”

Sure I’ll get healthcare when I’m 60 till then I’m good.

Healthcare for profit is irreconcilable with the Hippocratic Oath. It’s also irreconcilable with our Lord’s view on caring for others. This is probably why healthcare in the west was largely institutionalized through the Roman state, then the Roman Catholic Church; both had not-for-profit models.

I doubt Jesus would want people to be forced to give as you are suggesting.

On a per capita basis, you spend substantially more on the American military presence world-wide (if you’re American). Over 600 staffed installations globally. I’m sure you’re equally outraged about that…

Nice straw man because I am. America should have never invade the middle east and we should drastically slash a bloated militarily budget. At least Trump seems to be doing the right thing in not getting us involved in Syria.

 

[BackHand]

Just because socialism did not work at one point in human history is no reason to believe it cannot thrive at another point in human history. As the world evolves, political systems will likely change and adapt.

It wasn’t just one point though.

Also, there’s no threat of imprisonment, exactly. You pay more in taxes if you’re not insured, which makes sense as you’re a public liability risk. If you refuse to pay taxes, yes, you might wind up with some problems, but that’s true of any tax. There’s just a tax you have to pay but become exempt from if you have health insurance.

So if I stop paying taxes the almighty state won’t send jackbooted thugs to come and kick in my door? Because it will.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

There are on-going experiences we can visit.

One is the case of Venezuela, where there is so little food that people are literally starving. No one is moving to Venezuela to experience their paradise.

Another is to look at the experiments being conducted by the 50 U.S. states, in which each state is free to conduct and manage its economic affairs.

High tax New York State and New Jersey is experiencing flight. People are voting with their feet and leaving. So many people are leaving New Jersey that the Governor, Chris Christie, is complaining that as the people move out, they take with them many many billions of their accumulated money with them.

These are not war torn places like in the Middle East.

 

[HOTI]

Too may people seem to think they have some kind of right to another person’s property or labor. They don’t. There is a reason why God gave us a commandment not to covet the goods of another just as there is a reason why we are to be charitable to the poor.

The Philosophy of Liberty:

youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I

 

[Vonsalza]

Too may people seem to think they have some kind of right to another person’s property or labor. They don’t. There is a reason why God gave us a commandment not to covet the goods of another just as there is a reason why we are to be charitable to the poor.

The Philosophy of Liberty:

youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I

I think you’re right to some degree. But far too many people toss up straw men when the issue of “socialism” comes up.

In it’s absolute form, it’s awful. Full state control of the distribution of goods is a nightmare. But in order to have a measured approach, one also needs to realize that the completely unregulated market is also a nightmare for anyone without power.

A balanced approach is somewhere in the middle.

“Well, if you don’t like it, don’t do business with them!”
So if your local utility provider goes completely privatized and can charge whatever they want, you just have to learn to go without power and water if you can’t afford it?

And before you cry “They wouldn’t do that! They need our money to exist!” please realize that rural customers generally have service lines run out to them via government mandate. On a per-household basis, rural service is incredibly expensive. This is why modern conveniences came to more densely populated areas waaaaay before they came out to the rural community. The cost of a one-mile spur in a city is divided between 100 families. Out in the country, a one-mile spur may only supply 3 or 4.

Using that example and at about $400,000 per mile for installation of regular electric service lines, we have $4,000 per household in the city and $100,000 per household in the country.

The point is this. If electricity went fully private, the rural folks would almost certainly have their power cut. It just makes zero financial sense to serve them.

They only have it because of big, mean “gubment”; even if they vote republican and call themselves “libertarian”.

 

[Bradski]

…jackbooted thugs…

A term that says a lot more about you than it does the IRS.

 

[Hicks]

“No Catholic could subscribe even to moderate Socialism” -Pope John XXIII

The Church really doesn’t cotton to Socialism. Encyclicals and teachings abound on this point.

 

[Vonsalza]

“No Catholic could subscribe even to moderate Socialism” -Pope John XXIII

The Church really doesn’t cotton to Socialism. Encyclicals and teachings abound on this point.

Then I’m sure the devout Catholics will avoid the use of the public roads and sidewalks on their travels to mass.

 

[adamhovey1988]

If we look at Portugal 20 years ago, the government came to a problem with religion and socialism. Abortion was legalized in 2007.

What is your stance?

The catechism of the Catholic Church warns against socialism capitalism and communism. Generally there is a position with some traditionalist Catholic groups called Distributism which is well within Church teaching unfortunately because of its name people mistake it for socialism. vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm here’s the catechism on the issue

 

[Hicks]

Then I’m sure the devout Catholics will avoid the use of the public roads and sidewalks on their travels to mass.

There’s a difference, you know.

 

[Vonsalza]

There’s a difference, you know.

Truly, there is not. Socialism vs Individualism is a continuum and your only decision is where you subjectively choose to mark your spot on it.

The collectivization of public roads is obviously something you accept. You pay taxes to the gov., they order the construction and maintenance, and if you attempt to block or damage the road (because you partially “own” it and should be free to do so), you’ll probably be arrested. It is socialized.

You almost certainly agree that other things are also optimally administered by the government. Like militaries. That’s not to say people shouldn’t own a gun - that’s a separate debate. But only state militaries should have nukes and tanks, right?

The debate is a continuum. It’s not two black-and-white yards with a clear, identifiable fence. It’s more like a black pole and a while pole with an infinite number of shades of grey in between them. You and I (and everyone else) are just at different spots in the grey-zone.

 

[MPat]

Truly, there is not. Socialism vs Individualism is a continuum and your only decision is where you subjectively choose to mark your spot on it.

Truly, there is.

The word “Socialism” is used for the “spot” where no sector of economy is private. If there is an exception, then what we have is not “Socialism”, but something else.

After all, it is not hard to find other terms for other “spots”, if they are needed - for example, “almost Socialism”…

The collectivization of public roads is obviously something you accept. You pay taxes to the gov., they order the construction and maintenance, and if you attempt to block or damage the road (because you partially “own” it and should be free to do so), you’ll probably be arrested. It is socialized.

You almost certainly agree that other things are also optimally administered by the government. Like militaries. That’s not to say people shouldn’t own a gun - that’s a separate debate. But only state militaries should have nukes and tanks, right?

The debate is a continuum. It’s not two black-and-white yards with a clear, identifiable fence. It’s more like a black pole and a while pole with an infinite number of shades of grey in between them. You and I (and everyone else) are just at different spots in the grey-zone.

Speak for yourself. CPSU was on one extreme - they thought than nothing less than total nationalisation is good enough. And there are anarcho-capitalists who think that nothing less than total privatisation (yes, including the military) is good enough.

 

[BackHand]

A term that says a lot more about you than it does the IRS.

Are you actually trying to dispute my assertion or are you just trying to cryptically insult me? What does it say about me? That I don’t like my labor stolen by the state? Specify please.

http://ntmynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/ancap-meme-generator.png

 

[Isca]

I think Americans see ‘socialism’ differently to Europeans. For myself, I’m a member of the British Labour Party and would consider myself on the left of it.

For me, a government stands or falls on how it protects the poor, the vulnerable, the disabled, the sick, the mentally-ill. Those who have no voice, or a very small voice. I don’t want to see people having to use food banks to feed their families. I don’t want young people to have no chance of a steady job or of ever owning a home. I don’t want old people to be struggling alone at home because there’s not enough social care.

I also thank God that my country has a universal health service that is free at the point of care. It’s not perfect, but if my homeless neighbour needs it, no-one will be asking him if he can pay.