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Does the church still teach unbaptized babies go to "Limbo"?
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thewanderer
Guest
Personally, I am of the opinion that there must be some moment of testing of some kind, some way of giving them an instant to make a choice, to choose either for or against God, just as the rest of us are given such a choice, and their final destination will depend on how they respond. How that is possible with infants without developed reason I haven’t figured out, but to me it seems like the most just and merciful answer, and so it is what I attribute to be true, just as you find the answer that they all go to heaven to be the most compaitible with your understanding of God’s love and mercy.
My point was to say that that interpretation is perfectly compatible with Catholic teachings, so don’t let other peoples opinions turn you away from the Church.
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thewanderer
Guest
Personally, I am of the opinion that there must be some moment of testing of some kind, some way of giving them an instant to make a choice, to choose either for or against God, just as the rest of us are given such a choice, and their final destination will depend on how they respond. How that is possible with infants without developed reason I haven’t figured out, but to me it seems like the most just and merciful answer, and so it is what I attribute to be true, just as you find the answer that they all go to heaven to be the most compatible with your understanding of God’s love and mercy.
My point was to say that that interpretation is perfectly compatible with Catholic teachings, so don’t let other peoples opinions turn you away from the Church.
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thewanderer
Guest
amazingJust to add a little bit of levity to this.
We had a miscarriage about 2 years ago. My husband was raised Oriental Orthodox and wasn’t sure what his church’s teaching on unbaptized babies was, so he asked what the RCC teaching was. I told him about Limbo. My mother was there with us and said
“No, no, no. The Catholic Church closed limbo years ago. It was too much for Moses with all the food allergies and electronic toys requiring batteries. God had to take over and move the babies to Heaven.”
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Ophelia23
Guest
In our Mother Mary’s arms. I’m with you on this, all the way.
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1ke
Guest
This is an opinion. Please do not present it as fact.
The Church simply does not teach what you have posted above.
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RPRPsych
Guest
The fact that something is not official teaching does not mean that it is condemned. Limbo has been accepted as a valid theological speculation, but not a dogma. (It’s something like a hypothesis in science: it’s interesting, and explains some of the facts, but lacks firm proof.) The Church does not allow catechisms that obscure or dissent from official teaching (such as the Dutch New Catechism), but it has no problem with legitimate theological opinions. At the time when the Baltimore was published, Limbo was viewed more favourably than it is now.
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JimG
Guest
Admittedly, limbo is a theological theory, not a doctrine. But I don’t see it as a necessarily a bad theory or something to be feared.
The essence of heaven is the beatific vision, the joining of our souls in an intimate relationship with the very life of God, which in this life is called grace and in the next life is called glory. But that is something invisible to the eye.
I was taught that limbo is a state of perfect natural happiness, lacking only the beatific vision. Perfect natural happiness is something that we don’t find even in this life. In the next life, one might regard two people and be unable to tell which is in heaven and which is in limbo—that is, which one is in possession of the beatific vision.
The Church no longer teaches the theory but says that unbaptized infants are left to the mercy of God. And certainly God has ways of dealing with original sin that we may not be privy to. But the theory of limbo itself is not frightening, but consoling.
The essence of heaven is the beatific vision, the joining of our souls in an intimate relationship with the very life of God, which in this life is called grace and in the next life is called glory. But that is something invisible to the eye.
I was taught that limbo is a state of perfect natural happiness, lacking only the beatific vision. Perfect natural happiness is something that we don’t find even in this life. In the next life, one might regard two people and be unable to tell which is in heaven and which is in limbo—that is, which one is in possession of the beatific vision.
The Church no longer teaches the theory but says that unbaptized infants are left to the mercy of God. And certainly God has ways of dealing with original sin that we may not be privy to. But the theory of limbo itself is not frightening, but consoling.
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severus68
Guest
Agreed!
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severus68
Guest
Yes! And infinitely more loving than we can ever be.
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severus68
Guest
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
This sentence is the most concise example of the different ideas of faith I have ever seen.
What is faith? What is Truth. Is it a “feeling” or emotion? Is the sole basis of our beliefs to bring comfort? Is our faith what we want to “feel” about something as tragic as losing a child? Or is it greater than that. I think it is important that while we must tread very softly with people like the PP who have an obvious emotional response, we must not declare what God himself has not. We do not tolerate the declaration of someone in “hell” We are not allowed to make that call. And we cannot make the call of who is in heaven. The CHurch does that through saints. Though they are not the only ones, the Church is the only one who can make these statements. Anything else is the CHurch of “me”
We should not be praying TO a lost, still born, miscarried, or aborted child. We should be praying FOR them. As one of the spiritual works of mercy.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/miscarriage.htm
“Why, My child—do you ask ‘why’? Well, I will tell you why.
You see, the child lives. Instead of the wind he hears the sound of angels singing before My throne. Instead of the beauty that passes he sees everlasting Beauty—he sees My face. He was created and lived a short time so the image of his parents imprinted on his face may stand before Me as their personal intercessor. He knows secrets of heaven unknown to men on earth. He laughs with a special joy that only the innocent possess. My ways are not the ways of man. I create for My Kingdom and each creature fills a place in that Kingdom that could not be filled by another. He was created for My joy and his parents’ merits. He has never seen pain or sin. He has never felt hunger or pain. I breathed a soul into a seed, made it grow and called it forth.”
I am humbled before you, my Lord, for questioning Your wisdom, goodness, and love. I speak as a fool—forgive me. I acknowledge Your sovereign rights over life and death. I thank You for the life that began for so short a time to enjoy so long an Eternity. – Mother M. Angelica
Why, my Lord—dare I ask why? It will not hear the whisper of the wind or see the beauty of its parents’ face—it will not see the beauty of Your creation or the flame of a sunrise. Why, my Lord?
“Why, My child—do you ask ‘why’? Well, I will tell you why.
You see, the child lives. Instead of the wind he hears the sound of angels singing before My throne. Instead of the beauty that passes he sees everlasting Beauty—he sees My face. He was created and lived a short time so the image of his parents imprinted on his face may stand before Me as their personal intercessor. He knows secrets of heaven unknown to men on earth. He laughs with a special joy that only the innocent possess. My ways are not the ways of man. I create for My Kingdom and each creature fills a place in that Kingdom that could not be filled by another. He was created for My joy and his parents’ merits. He has never seen pain or sin. He has never felt hunger or pain. I breathed a soul into a seed, made it grow and called it forth.”
I am humbled before you, my Lord, for questioning Your wisdom, goodness, and love. I speak as a fool—forgive me. I acknowledge Your sovereign rights over life and death. I thank You for the life that began for so short a time to enjoy so long an Eternity. – Mother M. Angelica
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severus68
Guest
What is this post about except to make disparaging remarks and lecture… The Church says God decides and no one has the right to put down someone who believes that her loving God has her unborn child in heaven.
Who is praying to anyone but God?
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
This is true. God does decide and that is all ANYONE is saying. Where the problem comes in is when people make statements in emotion like
It is an emotionally charged issue to be sure but all theology is applied equally. Can someone HOPE their unborn babies are in heaven. Absolutely, in fact the Church instructs us to do just that. But can we declare that beyond the Church we have the power to declare that. No. And if you take the issue and change it to something else like.
"My mass is the TLM and it is the only valid way to have a mass. No one, (or church) will ever ever ever convince me otherwise… never never never. End of story. I don’t need scripture or a dead Pope or saint. I cannot separate my belief in God with the idea of the TLM being the only valid form of the Mass.
You can use ANY subject and see that there needs to be a difference between HOPE and Declaration of something that only the Church can do.
If it were so easy as a loving God would never send an unborn baby to hell, why would not the Church have stated this? Why would it not have declared it to ease the pain of so many parents over time. It would seem such a merciful easy thing to do. Unless, there is more to it than our “emotion” Unless it has not been revealed to the Church. IN which case you would have to ask. Why not? I think there are bigger issues at play than meets the eye.
No one person has the power to proclaim anyone in heaven or hell. Period. You can hope, but if you are putting this idea above God and the scriptures and His CHurch then you are loving a person over God and you are not able to see that God in His infinite Justice can do as he pleases and will only do good. You must be able to trust in that. But you cannot dictate to God what He must do for you to accept Him. He has already died for you. And perhaps here is where we can unite with Him on the Cross. IF you take the pain of a mother who loses a child and wonders if they are in heaven, and compound it by a trillion you may come close to the way God feels every time he loses ANY one of His children to death. (sin) Perhaps we should focus on that.
One concept not even being discussed is the idea of free will. One MUST choose God when on this life to get to heaven. One must be baptised and die in a state of grace. While we wonder about the “fairness” of a God might not guarantee the salvation of an unborn child we forget the unfairness that would bring to those of us who had the misfortune of being born and reaching the age of reason to sin. How would that be fair? Under this idea infantiide would become a spiritual work of mercy as you would be populating heaven.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
My Dad died a number of years ago. I tell my kids that Grandpa is in heaven. He hasn’t been canonized.
Mother Angelica’s prayer about miscarriage is lovely. She has more than hope.
It isn’t against the teachings of the Church to believe that your miscarried baby is in heaven. I believe mine are.
**
Make the sign of the cross.
The leader begins: Let us praise the Father of mercies, the God of all consolation. Blessed be God for ever.
All respond: Blessed be God for ever.
The leader may use these or similar words to introduce the blessing:
For those who trust in God,
in the pain of sorrow there is consolation,
in the face of despair there is hope,
in the midst of death there is life.
(Name) and (Name), as we mourn the death of your child,
we place ourselves in the hands of God and ask strength, for healing, and for love.
Then the Scripture is read:
Listen to the words of the book of Lamentations:
My soul is deprived of peace,
I have forgotten what happiness is;
I tell myself my future is lost,
all that I hoped for from the Lord.
But I will call this to mind,
as my reason to have hope:
The favors of the Lord are not exhausted,
his mercies are not spent;
They are renewed each morning,
so great is his faithfulness.
My portion is the Lord, says my soul;
therefore I will hope in him.
– ** Lamentations 3:17-18, 21-24 **
The reader concludes: The Word of the Lord.
All respond: Thanks be to God.
After a time of silence, all join in the prayers of intercession.
These conclude with the Lord’s Prayer.
Then the leader may invite all to extend their hands over the parents in blessing.
Father and Creator,
in whom all life and death find meaning,
we bless you at all times,
especially when we have need of your consolation.
N. and N. entrust to your care a life conceived in love.
May your blessing come upon them now.
Remove all anxiety from their minds
and strengthen this love
so that they may have peace in their hearts and home.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.
All respond: Amen.
All make the sign of the cross as the leader concludes: May the almighty and merciful God bless and protect us, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
All respond: Amen.
**
Mother Angelica’s prayer about miscarriage is lovely. She has more than hope.
It isn’t against the teachings of the Church to believe that your miscarried baby is in heaven. I believe mine are.
**
When a baby dies before birth, the parents may seek the prayers of the Church. A priest, deacon, or lay minister of the parish, or a member of the family may lead this blessing.
Make the sign of the cross.
The leader begins: Let us praise the Father of mercies, the God of all consolation. Blessed be God for ever.
All respond: Blessed be God for ever.
The leader may use these or similar words to introduce the blessing:
For those who trust in God,
in the pain of sorrow there is consolation,
in the face of despair there is hope,
in the midst of death there is life.
(Name) and (Name), as we mourn the death of your child,
we place ourselves in the hands of God and ask strength, for healing, and for love.
Then the Scripture is read:
Listen to the words of the book of Lamentations:
My soul is deprived of peace,
I have forgotten what happiness is;
I tell myself my future is lost,
all that I hoped for from the Lord.
But I will call this to mind,
as my reason to have hope:
The favors of the Lord are not exhausted,
his mercies are not spent;
They are renewed each morning,
so great is his faithfulness.
My portion is the Lord, says my soul;
therefore I will hope in him.
– ** Lamentations 3:17-18, 21-24 **
The reader concludes: The Word of the Lord.
All respond: Thanks be to God.
After a time of silence, all join in the prayers of intercession.
These conclude with the Lord’s Prayer.
Then the leader may invite all to extend their hands over the parents in blessing.
Father and Creator,
in whom all life and death find meaning,
we bless you at all times,
especially when we have need of your consolation.
N. and N. entrust to your care a life conceived in love.
May your blessing come upon them now.
Remove all anxiety from their minds
and strengthen this love
so that they may have peace in their hearts and home.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.
All respond: Amen.
All make the sign of the cross as the leader concludes: May the almighty and merciful God bless and protect us, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
All respond: Amen.
**
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severus68
Guest
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