Does the Church teach that a Baptized person who dies in a state of mortal sin cannot POSSIBLY be saved?

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Yes, if one dies in a state of mortal sin they cannot be saved.

However, it is impossible to tell if someone is actually in a state of mortal sin. Just because one does an objectively evil and disordered act that is grave matter does not automatically mean that the person is guilty of mortal sin. Subjectively, there might be numerous factors - such as force of habit, compulsion or peer pressure, mental disorder or imbalance - that reduce culpability.

We live in the hope that most people deep down are not culpable even when they commit intrinsically disordered actions.
Agreed

If we die in a state of mortal sin which by it’s nature separates us from God, then we have in effect chosen damnation. The merciful God who would indeed forgive any and all sins respects our free will to choose and will not forgive a sin that we have not repented of or asked for forgiveness for.
 
The church teaches that anyone who dies in an unrepentant state of mortal sin will be condemned. So it is impossible for someone who died in unrepentant state of mortal sin to be saved. Maybe what is missing in the OP is the word “unrepentant”. The person has until the last second of his/her life to repent. Could a person in mortal sin before the instant he/she dies be saved? Yes if they truly repent and convert…before they die. If they die unrepentant then it is impossible to be saved.
 
One should never count on loopholes.

Very dangerous.
:twocents:
 
Thank you to many for your thoughtful replies.

I completely agree that the Church teaches that we are condemned if we die in a state of mortal sin.

But what I am unsure about is if the Church has ever absolutely precluded any possibility whatsoever of salvation. Is it possible that 0.0001% of people who die in a state of mortal sin are saved after all?

Here’s why this bugs me: A generally “good” person might commit just one mortal sin in his whole life, yet his fate is identical to the guy that tortures and kills people for fun???

Maybe a guy spends his life trying to do good - he works soup kitchens, and builds houses for the homeless. He commits ONE unconfessed mortal sin and he’s off to hell with the murderers and rapists? That just seems out of whack to me.

Is there any possibility that God can grant a reprieve?

Because, if there isn’t, it’s not really a judgement. It’s merely a finding of fact. “Mortal sin - off to hell you go. Next!”

This is why I don’t favor mandatory sentencing laws for criminals - it takes the judgement away from the judge. This idea that mortal sin ALWAYS results in our condemnation is like a mandatory sentencing law where the judge (God) has no leeway.
 
I don’t think we need to worry if God will see the good in a person.
God will be a just judge.
What the Church teaches is for our own good, and for our encouragement in doing good, remaining good.
God, ultimately decides, and thankfully, is merciful.
 
Thank you to many for your thoughtful replies.

I completely agree that the Church teaches that we are condemned if we die in a state of mortal sin.

But what I am unsure about is if the Church has ever absolutely precluded any possibility whatsoever of salvation. Is it possible that 0.0001% of people who die in a state of mortal sin are saved after all?

Here’s why this bugs me: A generally “good” person might commit just one mortal sin in his whole life, yet his fate is identical to the guy that tortures and kills people for fun???

Maybe a guy spends his life trying to do good - he works soup kitchens, and builds houses for the homeless. He commits ONE unconfessed mortal sin and he’s off to hell with the murderers and rapists? That just seems out of whack to me.

Is there any possibility that God can grant a reprieve?

Because, if there isn’t, it’s not really a judgement. It’s merely a finding of fact. “Mortal sin - off to hell you go. Next!”

This is why I don’t favor mandatory sentencing laws for criminals - it takes the judgement away from the judge. This idea that mortal sin ALWAYS results in our condemnation is like a mandatory sentencing law where the judge (God) has no leeway.
God is only bound by His covenant to us… God knows us better than we know ourselves. If God want’s to make exception and forgive us for that 1 un-confessed mortal sin we had 50 years ago, because he knows that we love him and wan to be with him, then He can do that. He is the final judge, and a very just & loving one.

But as pianistclare states… “One should never count on loopholes. Very dangerous.”
 
Thank you to many for your thoughtful replies.

I completely agree that the Church teaches that we are condemned if we die in a state of mortal sin.

But what I am unsure about is if the Church has ever absolutely precluded any possibility whatsoever of salvation. Is it possible that 0.0001% of people who die in a state of mortal sin are saved after all?

Here’s why this bugs me: A generally “good” person might commit just one mortal sin in his whole life, yet his fate is identical to the guy that tortures and kills people for fun???

Maybe a guy spends his life trying to do good - he works soup kitchens, and builds houses for the homeless. He commits ONE unconfessed mortal sin and he’s off to hell with the murderers and rapists? That just seems out of whack to me.

Is there any possibility that God can grant a reprieve?

Because, if there isn’t, it’s not really a judgement. It’s merely a finding of fact. “Mortal sin - off to hell you go. Next!”

This is why I don’t favor mandatory sentencing laws for criminals - it takes the judgement away from the judge. This idea that mortal sin ALWAYS results in our condemnation is like a mandatory sentencing law where the judge (God) has no leeway.
I understand. Because people on earth judging someone to hell the same as an unrepentant murderer or rapist if for instance they never repented that they slept in and missed only 1 Mass their entire lives in which they were obligated to attend, yet lived otherwise a good life as you described, has always troubled me about the CC. In light of Christ’s words about not to judge.
 
I understand. Because people on earth judging someone to hell the same as an unrepentant murderer or rapist if for instance they never repented that they slept in and missed only 1 Mass their entire lives in which they were obligated to attend, yet lived otherwise a good life as you described, has always troubled me about the CC. In light of Christ’s words about not to judge.
The same Catholic church where Christ said: “Those sins you loose are loosed in heaven, those that you retain are retained in heaven”…?

In other words Christ giving his church the authority to bind and loose sin isn’t enough?

Murder and rape as you say is a great crime against Humanity and ultimately against God even though if someone were to sincerely repent they would hope to be forgiven.

However missing mass or being late is also a crime, against God (Unless ofcourse there is a valid reason Illness etc), For which you can also be forgiven. This ties in with the first commandment.

Your attempt to try and compare sins is a little far fetched.
 
I understand. Because people on earth judging someone to hell the same as an unrepentant murderer or rapist if for instance they never repented that they slept in and missed only 1 Mass their entire lives in which they were obligated to attend, yet lived otherwise a good life as you described, has always troubled me about the CC. In light of Christ’s words about not to judge.
The same Catholic church where Christ said: “Those sins you loose are loosed in heaven, those that you retain are retained in heaven”…?

In other words Christ giving his church the authority to bind and loose sin isn’t enough?

Murder and rape as you say is a great crime against Humanity and ultimately against God even though if someone were to sincerely repent they would hope to be forgiven.

However missing mass or being late is also a crime, against God (Unless ofcourse there is a valid reason Illness etc), For which you can also be forgiven. This ties in with the first commandment.

Your attempt to try and compare sins is a little far fetched.
👍 True.

The fact is that no one but God can know another soul’s final end, and so speculation is a waste of time.

Trying to assert that anyone goes to hell against their own volition is equally foolish, since no one ends up in hell except they make the final and unrepentant choice to turn away from His love for them. That’s the reality of the whole universe in a nutshell.

There is no one…repeat, no one, whom God does not love and call to Him but He will not force us, We have a profound and eternal choice to make.

How easily we forget the words of Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ when He said, *"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. [24] For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake, he will save it. [25] For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? "

Perhaps we would be more wise to be less concerned with how we can be lost and more concerned with finding our way to confession to insure that we are in a state of grace. We can thank God for the gift of His church which provides the sacrament by which we are reconciled to Him, each other, and the Church.**

 
Thank you to many for your thoughtful replies.

I completely agree that the Church teaches that we are condemned if we die in a state of mortal sin.

But what I am unsure about is if the Church has ever absolutely precluded any possibility whatsoever of salvation. Is it possible that 0.0001% of people who die in a state of mortal sin are saved after all?

Here’s why this bugs me: A generally “good” person might commit just one mortal sin in his whole life, yet his fate is identical to the guy that tortures and kills people for fun???

Maybe a guy spends his life trying to do good - he works soup kitchens, and builds houses for the homeless. He commits ONE unconfessed mortal sin and he’s off to hell with the murderers and rapists? That just seems out of whack to me.

Is there any possibility that God can grant a reprieve?

Because, if there isn’t, it’s not really a judgement. It’s merely a finding of fact. “Mortal sin - off to hell you go. Next!”

This is why I don’t favor mandatory sentencing laws for criminals - it takes the judgement away from the judge. This idea that mortal sin ALWAYS results in our condemnation is like a mandatory sentencing law where the judge (God) has no leeway.
For all we know Adam & Eve committed just one sin in their life.
  • God gave A & E just one command
  • He gave them the consequences if they disobeyed that command
  • They disobeyed , and the consequences for their disobedience for that one sin happened just as God promised…
As an observation, I think too many people today have lost their fear of the Lord if they ever had it in the first place. Scripture says, Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

[2 Chronicles 19:7](2 - - Bible Gateway Chronicles+19:7&version=RSVCE)

Job 28:28

Psalm 111:10 ***

Proverbs 1:7

Proverbs 1:29

Proverbs 2:5

Proverbs 8:13

Proverbs 9:10

Proverbs 10:27

Proverbs 14:27

Proverbs 15:16

Proverbs 16:6

Proverbs 19:23

Proverbs 23:17

Isaiah 11:2

And one who is truly repentant before they die, will be forgiven .
 
But what I am unsure about is if the Church has ever absolutely precluded any possibility whatsoever of salvation. Is it possible that 0.0001% of people who die in a state of mortal sin are saved after all?
Catechism:

“1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell…”

For a Catholic to go to hell - he who has been baptized into Christ -given true life in him –

-“a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end” (Catechism 1037).

One can have the grace of perfect contrition (which includes the intent to confess as soon as possible) - and be restored to life prior to any confession. (and such contrition need not any “emotion”) scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm#1452

God can reach a person in even the very last moment in ways we do not know or guess. Jesus can reach them and they can enter into life. (though we are not to presume on such in our case -but seek to prefect contrition and also seek to quickly go to confession).

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm
 
Thank you to many for your thoughtful replies.

I completely agree that the Church teaches that we are condemned if we die in a state of mortal sin.

But what I am unsure about is if the Church has ever absolutely precluded any possibility whatsoever of salvation. Is it possible that 0.0001% of people who die in a state of mortal sin are saved after all?

Here’s why this bugs me: A generally “good” person might commit just one mortal sin in his whole life, yet his fate is identical to the guy that tortures and kills people for fun???

Maybe a guy spends his life trying to do good - he works soup kitchens, and builds houses for the homeless. He commits ONE unconfessed mortal sin and he’s off to hell with the murderers and rapists? That just seems out of whack to me.

Is there any possibility that God can grant a reprieve?

Because, if there isn’t, it’s not really a judgement. It’s merely a finding of fact. “Mortal sin - off to hell you go. Next!”

This is why I don’t favor mandatory sentencing laws for criminals - it takes the judgement away from the judge. This idea that mortal sin ALWAYS results in our condemnation is like a mandatory sentencing law where the judge (God) has no leeway.
You may want to make a distinction between unconfessed and unrepentant mortal sin.

The only way we can be assured of forgiveness of mortal sins is through the sacraments. However, the Church does leave open the possibility that God may make available salvation in ways known only to Him. To paraphrase the Catechism, God has bound salvation to the sacraments, but He Himself is not bound. It’s God’s prerogative if He wants to offer another way for people to repent.

As PianistClare said, it’s not good to look for loopholes. So we are definitely better off taking the sure path that has been revealed. But we still hold out hope for others.

So it is possible that those who die with unconfessed mortal sin could still be saved. But it would only be because they repent and turn to God and away from sin. To die with unrepentant mortal sin is the very definition of how one ends up in hell. That is not going to change.
 
Thank you to many for your thoughtful replies.

I completely agree that the Church teaches that we are condemned if we die in a state of mortal sin.

But what I am unsure about is if the Church has ever absolutely precluded any possibility whatsoever of salvation. Is it possible that 0.0001% of people who die in a state of mortal sin are saved after all?

Here’s why this bugs me: A generally “good” person might commit just one mortal sin in his whole life, yet his fate is identical to the guy that tortures and kills people for fun???

Maybe a guy spends his life trying to do good - he works soup kitchens, and builds houses for the homeless. He commits ONE unconfessed mortal sin and he’s off to hell with the murderers and rapists? That just seems out of whack to me.

Is there any possibility that God can grant a reprieve?

Because, if there isn’t, it’s not really a judgement. It’s merely a finding of fact. “Mortal sin - off to hell you go. Next!”

This is why I don’t favor mandatory sentencing laws for criminals - it takes the judgement away from the judge. This idea that mortal sin ALWAYS results in our condemnation is like a mandatory sentencing law where the judge (God) has no leeway.
No, after someone dies there is no way back. There is no minimum chance after death. Before the death yes you have a chance to be saved but the minute you die there is no way back. You also need to keep in mind that going to hell is not Jesus being mean and saying you go to hell. It is the consequence of YOUR, MINE, HIS or HER choice. We condemned our selves when we die unrepentant. If I choose at the moment of death to die unrepentant of my sins I am condemning myself to hell. I had the option but I refuse it. You can’t barely blame God for anything when I am the one refusing to be saved.

Second. If someone is a good person just as you said, truly in heart, I can’t assure that that person in his heart will repent and will have a perfect constriction if a situation prevents the person of a confession. Also remember that you are being judged by the perfect judge. You and I don’t know what does happen in someone’s heart at the moment of their death. Jesus foes and he is just and perfect so you can rest assured that wherever that person ends is going to be exactly where they deserve to be.
 
No one so far has mentioned the “fundamental option.” I’m certainly not an expert in it, and I just know what I read about 30 years ago. I’m also aware of various criticisms, which I think are valid, but don’t invalidate the whole theory.

But in the context of this thread, my understanding of it is this: To sin, we have to make a free choice. But on earth there are all sorts of things affecting our choice–on the one hand, the things in the world around us; on the other hand, the state of our own minds. (For example, is stealing $100 from a poor man the same sin as stealing $100 from Bill Gates? What if we think what we’re doing is wrong, but are unclear on how wrong it is and what consequences might spring from it–we tell a lie about someone, and that lie is passed down through two or three people until it gets to a wronged husband, who kills his wife because of my original lie.) Without nit-picking, you get the idea. So we are never truly, perfectly “free.”

As I understand the “fundamental option,” the idea is that at death God presents us with our past sins. Now we have perfect understanding of the sins, and our minds are also truly free–no constraints of past habits, etc. etc. So if at this point you say, “My God, what was I thinking! I would never have done that if I ….” then you are forgiven and go to Heaven. If, on the other hand, you embrace your past sin and say, “Yes. Now I understand everything about that sin. And I would do it again.” Then too bad for you.

It makes sense to me, and it certainly solves a lot of the issues brought up by previous posters (for example, a man spends his entire life doing good and misses Mass once).
 
No one so far has mentioned the “fundamental option.” I’m certainly not an expert in it, and I just know what I read about 30 years ago. I’m also aware of various criticisms, which I think are valid, but don’t invalidate the whole theory.
No it is not valid. The Church has addressed it.

If one wants to use the term…the only valid “fundamental option” reality- is that ones fundamental option is changed by a *single *mortal sin.
 
This is a question which is somewhat “advanced” in theology and apologetics. It presumes an understanding of the Church’s teaching about venial/mortal sin.

I contend that the Catholic Church has never taught that salvation was absolutely impossible for anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin, after having attained Saving Grace (through Christian Baptism).

So, I would like to discuss the question: Does the Catholic Church teach that a Baptized person who commits unconfessed mortal sin (which would not include the intent to confess in dire circumstances where Confession was not available) has absolutely NO possibility whatsoever of salvation?
I thought that the answer would be “yes,” but with heavy caveats on what “unconfessed mortal sin” would mean. That is to say, the act would first have had to be committed with full knowledge and consent, and the “unconfessed” would need to be qualified to mean “and without perfect contrition.”

In other words, a person who dies in a state of willfully preferring some grave sin to the love of God cannot be saved. A person who is repentant of grave sins or has not yielded to them with full knowledge and deliberate consent will be saved.

Edwin
 
No, after someone dies there is no way back. There is no minimum chance after death. Before the death yes you have a chance to be saved but the minute you die there is no way back.
So, just to be clear, do you mean that God cannot grant ANYBODY who has received Sanctifying Grace (through Christian Baptism) but subsequently lost it (through mortal sin) ANY form of reprieve WHATSOEVER?
You also need to keep in mind that going to hell is not Jesus being mean and saying you go to hell. It is the consequence of YOUR, MINE, HIS or HER choice. We condemned our selves when we die unrepentant. If I choose at the moment of death to die unrepentant of my sins I am condemning myself to hell. I had the option but I refuse it. You can’t barely blame God for anything when I am the one refusing to be saved.
I am very mindful of this teaching, which is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches:
CCC 1033 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
Second. If someone is a good person just as you said, truly in heart, I can’t assure that that person in his heart will repent and will have a perfect constriction if a situation prevents the person of a confession.
Indeed, if a person is prevented from attending confession by a nearby BOMB explosion, he has no opportunity for any sort of contrition whatsoever, whether “perfect” or Sacramental. The guy (presumably) did not detonate the bomb that instantly killed him.

If the guy lived a “good” life, but messed up a minute before the bomb went BOOM, is he condemned to hell, along with the habitual sadists and rapists and murderers?

This is NOT a hypothetical question. Anyone can die at any time, for any reason (or for no apparent reason at all).

(BONUS QUESTION to advanced apologists: Do you know what I am REALLY asking here? It is the question that has troubled the Church since the days of the St. Thomas Aquinas and the Scholastics. I don’t know the answer, but I’m putting my own modern “spin” on the question.)
 
No one so far has mentioned the “fundamental option.” I’m certainly not an expert in it, and I just know what I read about 30 years ago. I’m also aware of various criticisms, which I think are valid, but don’t invalidate the whole theory.

But in the context of this thread, my understanding of it is this: To sin, we have to make a free choice. But on earth there are all sorts of things affecting our choice–on the one hand, the things in the world around us; on the other hand, the state of our own minds. (For example, is stealing $100 from a poor man the same sin as stealing $100 from Bill Gates? What if we think what we’re doing is wrong, but are unclear on how wrong it is and what consequences might spring from it–we tell a lie about someone, and that lie is passed down through two or three people until it gets to a wronged husband, who kills his wife because of my original lie.) Without nit-picking, you get the idea. So we are never truly, perfectly “free.”

As I understand the “fundamental option,” the idea is that at death God presents us with our past sins. Now we have perfect understanding of the sins, and our minds are also truly free–no constraints of past habits, etc. etc. So if at this point you say, “My God, what was I thinking! I would never have done that if I ….” then you are forgiven and go to Heaven. If, on the other hand, you embrace your past sin and say, “Yes. Now I understand everything about that sin. And I would do it again.” Then too bad for you.

It makes sense to me, and it certainly solves a lot of the issues brought up by previous posters (for example, a man spends his entire life doing good and misses Mass once).
We just need to keep in mind that the fundamental option is produced by our individual acts.

The decisive issue remains whether one possesses the capacity for friendship with God—that is, sanctifying grace—at death. A person could throw everything away just before he dies by committing a mortal sin and refusing to repent.
 
So, just to be clear, do you mean that God cannot grant ANYBODY who has received Sanctifying Grace (through Christian Baptism) but subsequently lost it (through mortal sin) ANY form of reprieve WHATSOEVER?

I am very mindful of this teaching, which is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches:

Indeed, if a person is prevented from attending confession by a nearby BOMB explosion, he has no opportunity for any sort of contrition whatsoever, whether “perfect” or Sacramental. The guy (presumably) did not detonate the bomb that instantly killed him.

If the guy lived a “good” life, but messed up a minute before the bomb went BOOM, is he condemned to hell, along with the habitual sadists and rapists and murderers?

This is NOT a hypothetical question. Anyone can die at any time, for any reason (or for no apparent reason at all).

(BONUS QUESTION to advanced apologists: Do you know what I am REALLY asking here? It is the question that has troubled the Church since the days of the St. Thomas Aquinas and the Scholastics. I don’t know the answer, but I’m putting my own modern “spin” on the question.)
Keep in mind that it is sanctifying grace that effects our salvation. Without it, we simply do not have the power to be in union with God. (Sanctifying grace actually consists in the indwelling of the Holy Trinity in our souls. It is this foretaste of heavenly glory that produces our salvation.)

Those who refuse to repent actually don’t want sanctifying grace, and so they are consequently refusing the help necessary to be saved.

Moreover, committing a mortal sin is not simply “messing up.” There can be no mortal sin without full knowledge and full consent. (If a person really just “messes up” he could still be saved, because his sin is probably not mortal.) Consider the following scenario: suppose someone attempts to bomb a building (objectively a grave or mortal sin) and the bomb blows up accidentally in his hands. By perpetrating this kind of act, the bomber is accepting the real possibility that he may not have time to repent of his evil actions.

Another thing to keep in mind is that we don’t know what happens at the moment of our death: it is possible that God gives people a moment of illumination, providing them a chance to repent of their sins. It is possible, but it is, of course, a terrible idea to presume on God’s mercy by postponing repentance until the moment of death.

As far as a person who dies in the act of confessing his sins: his sins are probably already forgiven; perfect contrition is produced by the sacrament, but need not coincide in time with the absolution. The fact that the man has already made the act of the will to confess his sins is probably a sign that he has perfect contrition.
 
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