Does the Church teach that a Baptized person who dies in a state of mortal sin cannot POSSIBLY be saved?

[Bookcat]

Indeed, if a person is prevented from attending confession by a nearby BOMB explosion, he has no opportunity for any sort of contrition whatsoever, whether “perfect” or Sacramental. The guy (presumably) did not detonate the bomb that instantly killed him.

If the guy lived a “good” life, but messed up a minute before the bomb went BOOM, is he condemned to hell, along with the habitual sadists and rapists and murderers?

From the Catechism

“1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell…”

For a Catholic to go to hell - he who has been baptized into Christ -given true life in him –

-“a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end” (Catechism 1037).

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

One can have the grace of perfect contrition (which includes the intent to confess as soon as possible) - and be restored to life prior to any confession. (and such contrition need not any “emotion”) scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm#1452

And remember too:

God can reach a person in even the very last moment in ways we do not know or guess. Jesus can reach them in that last moment and they can enter into life. Such is a possibility (though we are not to presume on such in our case -but seek to prefect contrition and also seek to quickly go to confession -for Jesus also say we know not the day or the hour…so watch).

 

[Usagi]

No one deserves Heaven or can claim it by right. That is the most important thing to remember. To attain Heaven requires God’s gift of sanctifying grace. Those who die without sanctifying grace (either never having had it, or having rejected it after Baptism) go to Hell, though their experience of Hell will vary depending on their actual sins (so the guy who missed Mass once, if that did indeed destroy his bond with God, would not in fact suffer the same fate as unrepentant murderers and rapists).

That said, as we know, God is not bound by the sacraments and knows way better than we do the actual state of a person’s heart. Repentance itself is a result of God’s grace, and God can grant it at the last possible moment. Based on the Church’s teaching, I don’t think He changes a person’s state after death, but He can do so at any time before death, even if it seems to us that the person died instantly or after a period of unresponsiveness.

If, as many of us believe, God can and does grant sanctifying grace even to the unbaptized, then it does not seem unreasonable that He would do the same for Christians who have stumbled and face death suddenly. I don’t believe that God allows salvation and damnation to hinge on the timing of one’s death, if there is a chance that a different timing would have swung the decision the other way.

So, I would affirm, with the Church, that those who die in unrepented mortal sin do indeed go to Hell. But not everyone that we think fits that category actually does.

Usagi

 

[Telstar]

So, just to be clear, do you mean that God cannot grant ANYBODY who has received Sanctifying Grace (through Christian Baptism) but subsequently lost it (through mortal sin) ANY form of reprieve WHATSOEVER?

After death, no, nothing, natta. Before death, even if it’s only by a microsecond, having perfect contrition would save them from hell.

Indeed, if a person is prevented from attending confession by a nearby BOMB explosion, he has no opportunity for any sort of contrition whatsoever, whether “perfect” or Sacramental. The guy (presumably) did not detonate the bomb that instantly killed him.

If the guy lived a “good” life, but messed up a minute before the bomb went BOOM, is he condemned to hell, along with the habitual sadists and rapists and murderers?

Committing a mortal sin a minute before death would likely leave very little time for remorse, or repentance, but I suppose it could happen. If God knew a soul was going to die without being fully prepared, it’s possible that He might grant them a special grace, somehow giving them that knowledge so they could repent.

Another thing to consider, that hasn’t been mentioned, is that we can never rule out the intersession of Saints, special graces attached to sacramentals, prayers or other actions performed by them (or by others for them) for certain indulgences related to sudden death, etc… God gives us many chances to turn around. But, after all of those chances have been exhausted, and the soul still stubbornly refuses to repent, then he has already made his own choice. God won’t force them and has to let them go.

(BONUS QUESTION to advanced apologists: Do you know what I am REALLY asking here? It is the question that has troubled the Church since the days of the St. Thomas Aquinas and the Scholastics. I don’t know the answer, but I’m putting my own modern “spin” on the question.)

I’m not an advanced Apologist, so why don’t you just ask the question in plain English, without beating around the bush?

 

[pnewton]

Indeed, if a person is prevented from attending confession by a nearby BOMB explosion, he has no opportunity for any sort of contrition whatsoever, whether “perfect” or Sacramental. The guy (presumably) did not detonate the bomb that instantly killed him.

If the guy lived a “good” life, but messed up a minute before the bomb went BOOM, is he condemned to hell, along with the habitual sadists and rapists and murderers?

I think the definition of terms is critical. Being in a state of mortal sin means that one is not in a state where one can go to Heaven. The two are the same. The better question is whether one who is killed “instantly” is really killed instantly. Does God allow for final contrition even in the one whose heart is immediately stopped or body shredded? It is possible. So when we say after death one’s disposition is fixed, we are not talking of just physical death (a line which is often crossed and then returned), but death as a permanent state.

Then we have the whole issue of what mortal sin really is. Can a good person really be a good person when committing a mortal sin, or is some subjective element missing that makes a sin venial, even though the matter is grave.

As to perfect contrition, ever since I was Catholic, I was taught that perfect contrition is contrition solely for the offense to God and with no regard to fear of Hell. I keep meeting with the idea that this is rare. I do not agree. Coming from a background that believes once one is saved they are always saved, I know that all contrition from this tradition is solely based on sorrow for offending God. Fear of Hell is not relevant to those who believe
the are going to Heaven no matter what. Yet we know that millions still confess their sins with no motive except sorrow for offending God.

In the end, we have to accept that God’s mercy is greater than we can imagine and trust that he will always make a way for his children to come home. Yes God can grant a reprieve, but it will be done prior to this event know as death.

 

[mamlukman]

“a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end” (Catechism 1037).

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

And remember too:

God can reach a person in even the very last moment in ways we do not know or guess. Jesus can reach them in that last moment and they can enter into life. Such is a possibility (though we are not to presume on such in our case -but seek to prefect contrition and also seek to quickly go to confession -for Jesus also say we know not the day or the hour…so watch).

That’s what I was getting at earlier by my “fundamental option” comment. I’ve read 3-4 articles about it since my post, and I understand that an encyclical didn’t approve of it, but from what I’ve read, the part the Pope didn’t like involved people having a certain orientation towards good or evil which negated or outweighed individual sins. That’s certainly not my understanding (admittedly 30 years old and just a passing acquaintance with the idea), and I’ve actually never come across that part at all.

But the part that made sense to me involves exactly what Bookcat is saying–no one knows what the “judgment” entails after death. And if God is outside space and time, obviously it’s not an issue of “that would take too long.” And it certainly makes sense that if during life you really, ultimately do not have complete free will (again, to repeat the points from my earlier post–because of circumstances around you or because of the state of your own mind), and since free will is essential to committing sin, that somehow at/after the moment of death you would be presented with a completely free opportunity to either reject your sins or embrace them.

 

[phil19034]

(BONUS QUESTION to advanced apologists: Do you know what I am REALLY asking here? It is the question that has troubled the Church since the days of the St. Thomas Aquinas and the Scholastics. I don’t know the answer, but I’m putting my own modern “spin” on the question.)

David - please don’t be like the theology professors who started the coup at Catholic University (and other Catholic colleges) back in the 1960s.

catholic.com/focus/18

 

[Bookcat]

But the part that made sense to me involves exactly what Bookcat is saying–no one knows what the “judgment” entails after death. And if God is outside space and time, obviously it’s not an issue of “that would take too long.” And it certainly makes sense that if during life you really, ultimately do not have complete free will (again, to repeat the points from my earlier post–because of circumstances around you or because of the state of your own mind), and since free will is essential to committing sin, that somehow at/after the moment of death you would be presented with a completely free opportunity to either reject your sins or embrace them.

Can grave be given in the last moment? yes. are we to presume on such? no.

(As Jesus noted - we know not the day or the hour…so Watch!)

It the moment of death deciding? Yes. As the Catechism notes see above.

After death is after the choice has been finalized…

 

[Bookcat]

From the Catechism

“1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell…”

For a Catholic to go to hell - he who has been baptized into Christ -given true life in him –

-“a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end” (Catechism 1037).

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

One can have the grace of perfect contrition (which includes the intent to confess as soon as possible) - and be restored to life prior to any confession. (and such contrition need not any “emotion”) scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm#1452

And remember too:

God can reach a person in even the very last moment in ways we do not know or guess. Jesus can reach them in that last moment and they can enter into life. Such is a possibility (though we are not to presume on such in our case -but seek to prefect contrition and also seek to quickly go to confession -for Jesus also say we know not the day or the hour…so watch).

 

[pnewton]

The critical question remains as to what is death, what is a moment and what is the moment of death. There is a great deal of latitude of belief as to how this applies. Much about Heaven, Hell and death has not been revealed to us, and those subject to disagreement.

 

[Good_Fella]

How I understand it is that one unrepentant mortal sin is enough to send a person to hell.

But the Church teaches that perfect contrition (the guilt one feels because of injuring his relationship to the Lord) is sufficient to return to a state of grace, if sacramental confession is not possible.

Imperfect contrition is the guilt we feel because we fear the punishment.

‘But most of all because they (all our sins) offend thee, my God, who art all good.’

PAX
:heaven:

 

[JOE_OBERR]

This is a question which is somewhat “advanced” in theology and apologetics. It presumes an understanding of the Church’s teaching about venial/mortal sin.

I contend that the Catholic Church has never taught that salvation was absolutely impossible for anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin, after having attained Saving Grace (through Christian Baptism).

So, I would like to discuss the question: Does the Catholic Church teach that a Baptized person who commits unconfessed mortal sin (which would not include the intent to confess in dire circumstances where Confession was not available) has absolutely NO possibility whatsoever of salvation?

Someone posted this quote from the Catechism: "…it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell,." This makes perfect sense because someone who has rejected doing God’s will in a grave, serious way, in effect telling God “You are wrong, I am right”, and has NOT repented and dies in this unrepentant state is making his own case for losing his eternal salvation. He is really saying I want to go where God is not because in heaven I would have to face God for eternity with Him telling me that I am wrong and He is right and for me that would be hell. So I choose to avoid that situation as I rejected sanctifying grace, i.e., the life of God in my soul, even until the point of death. Of course one can always repent, even in the last moments of life, as God wants every one of us with Him for eternity. The problem is not Him, it is us, as we can always reject his love by failing to repent as He gives us that freedom and respects it.

We even have scriptural evidence and support for this teaching of Jesus to his Apostles in Gal 5:19-20:
“Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

St. Paul is talking to the Galatians who were already saved. i.e., liberated from the slavery of sin by baptism, but who were still in danger of losing their eternal salvation by committing grave sin and not repenting. This still applies today though many do not want to accept Jesus’ teaching on this in order to rationalize gravely sinful behavior. They talk of God’s merciful love or how a loving God would not let one suffer dreadful pains for eternity.

 

[Good_Fella]

Pope Benedict XVI was of the opinion and expressed it an encyclical that ‘most’ people will end up in purgatory, with only a minority of really committed mortal sinners in hell:

I absolutely agree. All for the greater glory of God!

PAX

:harp:

 

[Vico]

I would not call perfect contrition a feeling, but an act.

Do you mean that contrition is an action noun, a noun denoting action?
Word Origin and History for contrition
n. c.1300, contrycyun, from Old French contriciun (Modern French contrition) and directly from Latin contritionem (nominative contritio), noun of action from past participle stem of conterere (see contrite)
dictionary.reference.com/browse/contrition

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Jesus said, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.” I personally believe that Jesus never stops knocking until the life is over. He is the Good Shepherd that never stops seeking the sheep and the Scripture says that God desires all men to be saved. In light of those Scriptures, I certainly think it is possible that the Lord would grant the grace necessary for perfect contrition in the final moments of a person’s life.

However, while I do not think any of us should limit God’s mercy for the souls of the dying, it seems clear to me from the Church that at death, we face judgement. (CCC 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.) I don’t think there is any wiggle room here.

 

[Ignatius]

This is a question which is somewhat “advanced” in theology and apologetics. It presumes an understanding of the Church’s teaching about venial/mortal sin.

I contend that the Catholic Church has never taught that salvation was absolutely impossible for anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin, after having attained Saving Grace (through Christian Baptism).

Actually, the heart of the matter is that we cannot possibly know if someone dies in a state of mortal sin since one can come to repentance at that last moment of their lives.

 

[TheSurvivor]

Do you mean that contrition is an action noun, a noun denoting action?
Word Origin and History for contrition
n. c.1300, contrycyun, from Old French contriciun (Modern French contrition) and directly from Latin contritionem (nominative contritio), noun of action from past participle stem of conterere (see contrite)
dictionary.reference.com/browse/contrition

I’m saying contrition is not an emotion.

 

[jinc1019]

Hello Again All,

I was discussing mortal sin with my very devout Catholic father-in-law the other day, and he seemed quite surprised when I said that a person, let’s call him Bill, could believe in Jesus Christ with all his heart and soul but still die in mortal sin and go to hell according to Catholic teaching. My father-in-law suggested Bill would not go to hell if he had true faith because of ignorance, etc.

My understanding of this, however, was that ignorance only applies when there is actually ignorance! If a person does understand what the Roman Catholic Church teaches but just disagrees with its view on a particular sin or a particular teaching, that person is considered to have full knowledge of the sin. Thus, if they commit the sin willingly, with full knowledge, and the Roman Catholic Church teaches its a grave sin, then that person must confess that sin and do penance before being in a good state with God, REGARDLESS of how much faith Bill has in Jesus.

My father-in-law seemed a bit skeptical, so can someone clear this up for us?

-J

 

[fhansen]

Hello Again All,

I was discussing mortal sin with my very devout Catholic father-in-law the other day, and he seemed quite surprised when I said that a person, let’s call him Bill, could believe in Jesus Christ with all his heart and soul but still die in mortal sin and go to hell according to Catholic teaching. My father-in-law suggested Bill would not go to hell if he had true faith because of ignorance, etc.

My understanding of this, however, was that ignorance only applies when there is actually ignorance! If a person does understand what the Roman Catholic Church teaches but just disagrees with its view on a particular sin or a particular teaching, that person is considered to have full knowledge of the sin. Thus, if they commit the sin willingly, with full knowledge, and the Roman Catholic Church teaches its a grave sin, then that person must confess that sin and do penance before being in a good state with God, REGARDLESS of how much faith Bill has in Jesus.

My father-in-law seemed a bit skeptical, so can someone clear this up for us?

-J

Well, our responsibility and culpability are based on knowledge and intent. So, if an act is of grave matter, we know this to be true, and we deliberately commit it anyway, then we’ve sinned seriously against God and neighbor; we’ve turned away from love and goodness by our act, even more so to the extent that it’s persisted in. Any lip service we may pay to our faith in and love for Christ is rendered hypocrisy by such behavior.

On top of that Scripture informs us that sinners don’t enter heaven, that we’re to be holy because God is holy, transformed into His image as it were, and that without holiness no one will see Him.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Merged threads with same topic

 

[KyleOfOrigen]

The catechism says “whoever dies in mortal sin”. All you literalists can try to stretch that to however you want- but it does not say “whoever commits a mortal sin” implying it is a state- not an individual act. I knew a Catholic family who were the examples of holiness and lived and breathed in the church. Their youngest son was playing in a baseball game once and it was the first time in their lives they ever missed Mass- so they could go as a family to see him play. They all died in a car crash that day. So many people I know said the entire family went to hell because missing Mass is a mortal sin. In the process, several family members left the church because of statements like that. The whole intention of the scriptures and the catechism is to help us understand the nature and character of God- and most people totally miss it. Try reading the Letters of Paul. He addressed them to CHRISTIANS and was addressing their mortal sins.