Does the Church teach that judaism is true?

[algebra]

First, Happy Easter to everyone.

I am a new Catholic (last easter). I was in a discussion with a Catholic who rejects the changes of The Vatican Council 2.

He claimed that the Church changed its teachings to say that all religions were true.

Being of jewish heritage myself, I would have to say that I do not agree with the Church’s position.

If judaism were true, I would be a jew, and not catholic.

I am freed from the law as Paul says, yet the Church teaches that those that are bonded are also following the Truth.

Its been a hard journey for me to Catholicism, including issues with how the Church turned a blind eye to the nazis, coming to terms with my mistrust for rome and separating the actions of a few from the Truth of the gospels.

Now I find that the Church says that judaism is actually true.

Can someone please clarify this issue.

 

[puzzleannie]

He claimed that the Church changed its teachings to say that all religions were true.

Being of jewish heritage myself, I would have to say that I do not agree with the Church’s position.
.

do you see these two statements are contradictory? “he claimed” vs “the Church’s position”
you are rejection “the Church’s position” without knowing anything about what that really is. What you mean to say is that you reject what he claims. It is up to him to prove his assertion and give you the reliable source. If you will read the relevant Vatican II document, Nostra Aetate, you will see he has completely mis-stated and mis-understood this document. My suggestion would be not to reject anything the Church teaches unless and until you fully understand that teaching, and are receiving it from the source, the Church herself. Even then, as a new Catholic, you like us “old” Catholics must admit that the Church, not ourselves, has been given authority by Christ to teach, and that our understanding, not hers, must be wrong.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
here is the document in question

also the way the question is posed “is Judaism true?” is ambiguous. Of course the Hebrew Scriptures are true, God revealed them. Of course the history of the Jewish people and their relationship to God contained in those scriptures is true, because He revealed it and those books are written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Of course the Jewish law is true because Jesus Himself says it is. That is not the same as saying that all that Judaism teaches and practices today is true for all people, that all people are bound by Jewish law, and that the teaching of rabbis contains the fullness of truth. We have received further revelation from God, written the New Testament and handed on by the Church as authentic teaching, that Christ abolished to old law and established a new covenant. That does not however automatically invalidate everything contained in the Hebrew scripture nor does it mean it suddenly becomes “not true”.

 

[algebra]

Nostrae Aetate, you will see he has completely mis-stated and mis-understood this document.

Please clarify what you mean here.

My suggestion would be not to reject anything the Church teaches unless and until you fully understand that teaching, and are receiving it from the source, the Church herself.
Even then, as a new Catholic, you like us “old” Catholics must admit that the Church, not ourselves, has been given authority by Christ to teach, and that our understanding, not hers, must be wrong.

Absolutely, however it was my reasoning that led me to the Church, and I reserve the right to use that reasoning to “understand” the Church’s position, without blindly accepting her teachings.

I am just confused regarding this teaching, thats all.

 

[puzzleannie]

as I suggest, read the actual teaching, don’t rely on what somebody “claims” about the teaching (me included) before you reject it.

 

[algebra]

I have been invited to attend a church that claims to be “Vatican” Free.

Still staying true to Catholicism, but not in communion with Vatican.

Having gone through the torment of feeling like I was betraying my jewish heritage to accept Catholicism, I find the position that Judaism is true deeply disturbing.

 

[Rascalking]

Having gone through the torment of feeling like I was betraying my jewish heritage to accept Catholicism, I find the position that Judaism is true deeply disturbing.

My friend,

Words cannot express how much I respect you. To do what you did-it must have been heartbreaking, but you followed the truth. The love and respect I have for the people of Israel (our beloved older brothers in faith, if I may say that) is boundless, and I know how hard it must have been for you to make this choice.

No, Catholics do not think that the Jewish religion is true. I think the Church teaches that many other religions have bits and peaces of the truth, but only the Catholic church has the complete and full truth.

 

[johns58w]

I have been invited to attend a church that claims to be “Vatican” Free.

Still staying true to Catholicism, but not in communion with Vatican.

Having gone through the torment of feeling like I was betraying my jewish heritage to accept Catholicism, I find the position that Judaism is true deeply disturbing.

God Bless you. Your Jewish heritage is so vital to the Catholic community. If it were not for your ancestors, Christianity would not exist. Your people are of the Chosen of God that have brought forth Messiah Yeshua.

As for the person inviting you to attend a “Catholic Church” claiming to be “Vatican Free”, DO NOT ATTEND that church. There have been “catholic” groups that have denied the authority of the Pope and the Vatican Holy See.

Catholics who deny or refuse the authority of the Pope and/or the Vatican are in a state called “SCHISM”. Schism is kind of like telling the Pope and/or the Vatican where to stick it.
Being in schism also means excommunicating oneself (refusal of Holy Communion and putting oneself in mortal sin 1st and 2nd and 3rd commandment).

Next big word SEDEVACANTIST (from Latin title: SEDE VACANTE translated to EMPTY SEAT). Certain “so called Catholic” groups will use this title proclaiming Popes like Pius the XII were the last to hold the “Chair of St. Peter” position and all Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II and Benedict XVI are antipopes in heresy to the Catholic church.

Sedevacantists are in schism and excommunicated from the Vatican. Pope Benedict XVI has been working with a priest order Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) toward communion back to the Catholic church and back under the Vatican. I don’t know if this is completed or still pending if some folks could get me information on the status of SSPX.

Get the book Cathechism of the Catholic Church and the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

God Bless You.

 

[NeedImprovement]

I have been invited to attend a church that claims to be “Vatican” Free.

Still staying true to Catholicism, but not in communion with Vatican.

Having gone through the torment of feeling like I was betraying my jewish heritage to accept Catholicism, I find the position that Judaism is true deeply disturbing.

Hi algebra .

Concerning staying true to Catholicism : Once someone or some group is no longer in communion with the Chair of Peter, it really can’t be said that they are any longer remaining true to Catholicism…(as Johns58w already pointed out … sorry took me a while to post tonight)

There are things which are held in common by Jewish and Catholic believers- which are connoted by a term : Judeo-Christian , Judeo-Catholic.

Pope John Paul II had arguably the leading attitude when it came to looking at one’s Catholic faith through the perspective of Judaism. He said the Jews are our older brothers . Rabbi Jacques Bemporad , said of Pope John Paul II’s understanding of the Judeo-Christian bond :

" Pope John Paul II understood that the Christian religion was rooted in Judaism and would have been inconceivable without the Old Testament. He said that the New Testament made explicit what was in the Old Testament."

catholiconline.org/featured/headline.php?ID=2005

I think my own personal opinion is in line with that. I’ve often thought of Catholicism as a table top but the legs of the table are Judaism - no legs, and the table lies flat on the ground for everyone to walk all over.

I think you might find this linked article useful in considering the above
zenit.org/article-13234?l=english.

Some particular things held in common :

• The Ten Commandments (very large section in the Catechism of the Catholic Church on these).
• The Psalms are another example. They are the “meat and potatoes” of the breviary or Liturgy of the Hours which is prayed daily by priests and deacons and religious and others.
• We (Catholics and Jews) can both say that the one true God is the God of Abraham, the God of Issac and the God of Jacob.
• It seems any Catholic who is strong in their faith would shudder to have to try and consider embracing that faith without the illumination provided by the writings of the prophet Isaiah.

We have a very fine priest in our diocese who was Jewish originally and became a Catholic priest - Father P. Sabbath. I remember reading in a newspaper interview years ago , he told the journalist about becoming first a Catholic and then a priest, “I didn’t deny my Jewish faith ; I went more deeply into it.”

So Father Sabbath didn’t betray his faith.

Perhaps some of his insight might appeal to you.

 

[algebra]

Thanks for the responses and guidance.

b’Shalom

 

[stuart12]

There are elements of all religions that are true. Howevever, a half truth is also a half lie.

Judaism, that is Old Testament Judaism, and not the sort that exists today, was the true religion of God. Through the Old Testament Scriptures, God in His plan of salvation was preparing the way for the Messias to come. And with His first coming, and the Covenant in His Blood, man can be reconciled to God. The Law could not justiffy, it was good for that appointed time but it had to be superceded.

In the Old Testament, Moses (that is the Law) died before taking the people of God into the Promised Land, he could only look on from afar.However his successor Joshua (Jesus in Greek version) led the people instead into the Land.

 

[stevusmagnus]

Does the Church teach that judaism is true?

Absolutely not.

That you have to ask this question is evidence of the crisis in the Church and the widespread error abounding since VCII.

If Judiasm were true we’d all still be following Pharisees.

Christianity fulfilled and replaced Judiasm. Religious Jews are still waiting for the Messiah.

Hope that answers your question.

Please get a Baltimore Catechism to avoid confusion of this sort as you learn about your faith.

God bless.

 

[Isaac_Jogues]

First, Happy Easter to everyone.

I am a new Catholic (last easter). I was in a discussion with a Catholic who rejects the changes of The Vatican Council 2.

He claimed that the Church changed its teachings to say that all religions were true.

Being of jewish heritage myself, I would have to say that I do not agree with the Church’s position.

If judaism were true, I would be a jew, and not catholic.

I am freed from the law as Paul says, yet the Church teaches that those that are bonded are also following the Truth.

Its been a hard journey for me to Catholicism, including issues with how the Church turned a blind eye to the nazis, coming to terms with my mistrust for rome and separating the actions of a few from the Truth of the gospels.

Now I find that the Church says that judaism is actually true.

Can someone please clarify this issue.

If you will read the relevant Vatican II document, Nostra Aetate, you will see he has completely mis-stated and mis-understood this document.

NOSTRA AETATE, POPE PAUL VI OCTOBER 28, 1965: “Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures.”

Let’s consider the proof that this statement at Vatican II is in fact not what the Church teaches, and the fact that the Jews are rejected by God does follow from the Holy Scriptures and the Dogma of the Church. This statement by Vatican II is a very specific heresy.

First, we have Matthew.

Matthew 10:33- “But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny before my
Father who is in heaven.”

The Jews explicitly rejected Jesus before men, therefore Jesus will deny them before His Father.

Second, we have what Pope Eugene IV infallibly teaches.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull Cantate Domino, 1442: “…the holy Roman Church, founded on the words of our Lord and Savior, firmly believes, professes and preaches one true God, almighty, immutable and eternal, Father, Son and Holy Spirit… Therefore it [the Holy Roman Church] condemns, rejects, anathematizes and declares to be outside the Body of Christ, which is the Church, whoever holds opposing or contrary views.”

It’s very interesting to note that the original Latin of the Council of Florence uses the word “reprobat,” which means “rejects.” It is from the Latin verb reprobo, which means “I reject” or “condemn.”

In Nostra Aetate #4 to declare exactly the opposite, Vatican II uses the same verb! Vatican II uses “reprobati,” which is the past participle passive of reprobo – the very same verb that the Council of Florence used! This means that Vatican II and the Council of Florence are talking about the exact same thing – they use the exact same verb – and they teach exactly the opposite! (Taken from Bro. Peter at Most Holy Family Monastery)

The Catholic Church and the Vatican II “church” say the exact opposite of eachother. They are not the same Church. One is Catholic and the other is anti-Catholic (VII). Let me leave you with a dogma of the Church. (Many on this forum will definitely try to explain away this teaching because they think they know more than the Church, it says what it says and there is no other way to interpret it)

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”:

 

[Isaac_Jogues]

First, Happy Easter to everyone.

I am a new Catholic (last easter). I was in a discussion with a Catholic who rejects the changes of The Vatican Council 2.

He claimed that the Church changed its teachings to say that all religions were true.

Being of jewish heritage myself, I would have to say that I do not agree with the Church’s position.

If judaism were true, I would be a jew, and not catholic.

I am freed from the law as Paul says, yet the Church teaches that those that are bonded are also following the Truth.

Its been a hard journey for me to Catholicism, including issues with how the Church turned a blind eye to the nazis, coming to terms with my mistrust for rome and separating the actions of a few from the Truth of the gospels.

Now I find that the Church says that judaism is actually true.

Can someone please clarify this issue.

If you will read the relevant Vatican II document, Nostra Aetate, you will see he has completely mis-stated and mis-understood this document.

NOSTRA AETATE, POPE PAUL VI OCTOBER 28, 1965: “Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures.”

Let’s consider the proof that this statement at Vatican II is in fact not what the Church teaches, and the fact that the Jews are rejected by God does follow from the Holy Scriptures and the Dogma of the Church. This statement by Vatican II is a very specific heresy.

First, we have Matthew.

Matthew 10:33- “But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny before my
Father who is in heaven.”

The Jews explicitly rejected Jesus before men, therefore Jesus will deny them before His Father.

Second, we have what Pope Eugene IV infallibly teaches.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull Cantate Domino, 1442: “…the holy Roman Church, founded on the words of our Lord and Savior, firmly believes, professes and preaches one true God, almighty, immutable and eternal, Father, Son and Holy Spirit… Therefore it [the Holy Roman Church] condemns, rejects, anathematizes and declares to be outside the Body of Christ, which is the Church, whoever holds opposing or contrary views.”

It’s very interesting to note that the original Latin of the Council of Florence uses the word “reprobat,” which means “rejects.” It is from the Latin verb reprobo, which means “I reject” or “condemn.”

In Nostra Aetate #4 to declare exactly the opposite, Vatican II uses the same verb! Vatican II uses “reprobati,” which is the past participle passive of reprobo – the very same verb that the Council of Florence used! This means that Vatican II and the Council of Florence are talking about the exact same thing – they use the exact same verb – and they teach exactly the opposite! (Taken from Bro. Peter at Most Holy Family Monastery)

The Catholic Church and the Vatican II “church” say the exact opposite of eachother. They are not the same Church. One is Catholic and the other is anti-Catholic (VII). Let me leave you with a dogma of the Church. (Many on this forum will definitely try to explain away this teaching because they think they know more than the Church, it says what it says and there is no other way to interpret it)

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”:

 

[Malleus_01]

NOSTRA AETATE, POPE PAUL VI OCTOBER 28, 1965: “Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures.”

Let’s consider the proof that this statement at Vatican II is in fact not what the Church teaches, and the fact that the Jews are rejected by God does follow from the Holy Scriptures and the Dogma of the Church. This statement by Vatican II is a very specific heresy.

First, we have Matthew.

Matthew 10:33- “But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny before my
Father who is in heaven.”

The Jews explicitly rejected Jesus before men, therefore Jesus will deny them before His Father.

Second, we have what Pope Eugene IV infallibly teaches.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull Cantate Domino, 1442: “…the holy Roman Church, founded on the words of our Lord and Savior, firmly believes, professes and preaches one true God, almighty, immutable and eternal, Father, Son and Holy Spirit… Therefore it [the Holy Roman Church] condemns, rejects, anathematizes and declares to be outside the Body of Christ, which is the Church, whoever holds opposing or contrary views.”

It’s very interesting to note that the original Latin of the Council of Florence uses the word “reprobat,” which means “rejects.” It is from the Latin verb reprobo, which means “I reject” or “condemn.”

In Nostra Aetate #4 to declare exactly the opposite, Vatican II uses the same verb! Vatican II uses “reprobati,” which is the past participle passive of reprobo – the very same verb that the Council of Florence used! This means that Vatican II and the Council of Florence are talking about the exact same thing – they use the exact same verb – and they teach exactly the opposite! (Taken from Bro. Peter at Most Holy Family Monastery)

The Catholic Church and the Vatican II “church” say the exact opposite of eachother. They are not the same Church. One is Catholic and the other is anti-Catholic (VII). Let me leave you with a dogma of the Church. (Many on this forum will definitely try to explain away this teaching because they think they know more than the Church, it says what it says and there is no other way to interpret it)

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”:

Malleus: Well stated. No Talmudic or Orthodox Jew is SAVED by Judaism. When Our Lord Stated - “No one cometh to the Father but by me” - he meant it. Can they be saved? If they are to be saved - it must be by the Will of GOD despite their false religion and through the Church by the parameters of Natural Law as defined by St Thomas Aquinas. So some can be saved - but none by Judaism.

pax

 

[Isaac_Jogues]

Malleus: Well stated. No Talmudic or Orthodox Jew is SAVED by Judaism. When Our Lord Stated - “No one cometh to the Father but by me” - he meant it. Can they be saved? If they are to be saved - it must be by the Will of GOD despite their false religion and through the Church by the parameters of Natural Law as defined by St Thomas Aquinas. So some can be saved - but none by Judaism.

pax

None can be saved outside the Church, through their own reiligion or through the Catholic Church. They must convert, like Algebra has done, and remain inside the Catholic Church in order to be saved. God has revealed what His Will is, through the Popes and Councils and no one can change it, not even St. Thomas Aquinas.

 

[Malleus_01]

None can be saved outside the Church, through their own reiligion or through the Catholic Church. They must convert, like Algebra has done, and remain inside the Catholic Church in order to be saved. God has revealed what His Will is, through the Popes and Councils and no one can change it, not even St. Thomas Aquinas.

Malleus: Thats not true. GOD can save whomever he wills to save and you cannot presume to speak for GOD. But keep in mind - I agree entirely with your premise. If you understand what the Summa teaches - the CHURCH (De fide) is an EXTENSION of the WILL of GOD. But the CHURCH (de fide )is not GOD. GOD is greater. With me so far? The CHURCH (de fide ) can never therefore - do what is against the Will of GOD.

So why is it important? Because GOD can do more than the Church. And when he does - it isnt against anything the Church Teaches or holds as True because the Church (De Fide) has the TRUTH revealed to it by GOD. But not all truth.

So understand the comment. What I said does not oppose what you said when understood properly.

Pax

 

[Isaac_Jogues]

Malleus: Thats not true. GOD can save whomever he wills to save and you cannot presume to speak for GOD. But keep in mind - I agree entirely with your premise. If you understand what the Summa teaches - the CHURCH (De fide) is an EXTENSION of the WILL of GOD. But the CHURCH (de fide )is not GOD. GOD is greater. With me so far? The CHURCH (de fide ) can never therefore - do what is against the Will of GOD.

While you agree with my premise, your words prove otherwise. Let me be clear, I do not agree with yours.
First, one can ONLY be saved INSIDE the Catholic Church. To believe anything different than that is to believe that God does not speak truth; since He has revealed that salvation is only attained inside the Church.
Second, the Church can never do what is against the will of God and reciprocally God can never go against what He has revealed to His Church.
If He has revealed to His Church (de fide) that there is absolutely no salvation outside His Church, then there is no Salvation outside His Church. No matter what St. Thomas says. Let’s remember that the Dogmas are the mouthpiece of Christ’s revelation, not the Summa, although the Summa is very important.

So why is it important? Because GOD can do more than the Church.

And when he does - it isnt against anything the Church Teaches or holds as True because the Church (De Fide) has the TRUTH revealed to it by GOD. But not all truth.
So understand the comment. What I said does not oppose what you said when understood properly.

Where did you get that God has withheld some truth from us pertaining to salvation, or anything else for that matter?
Please show me where the Scriptures and the Catholic Church teaches that He has not revealed all truth.
Also, show me where a Pope or Council (before your Vatican II “popes” or “council”) has ever infallibly declared that a person is saved outside the Church.

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

First, Happy Easter to everyone.

I am a new Catholic (last easter). I was in a discussion with a Catholic who rejects the changes of The Vatican Council 2.

He claimed that the Church changed its teachings to say that all religions were true.

Being of jewish heritage myself, I would have to say that I do not agree with the Church’s position.

If judaism were true, I would be a jew, and not catholic.

I am freed from the law as Paul says, yet the Church teaches that those that are bonded are also following the Truth.

Its been a hard journey for me to Catholicism, including issues with how the Church turned a blind eye to the nazis, coming to terms with my mistrust for rome and separating the actions of a few from the Truth of the gospels.

Now I find that the Church says that judaism is actually true.

Can someone please clarify this issue.

This is an emotional and very important topic to understand.

Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not replace it. Judaism is the basis of our faith. When Jesus was an infant, as a young man he went to the synagogue in adherence to the Law. Obedience was a hallmark of Jesus’ life. Jesus himself observed Judaic law attending temple. It was in instances like healing the sick on the Sabbath that he followed Love, rather than the letter of the law. His understanding of the Old Testament was unparalleled, for obvious reasons. Rejecting the Judaic teaching is rejecting God, nothing less.

He claimed that the Church changed its teachings to say that all religions were true = patently FALSE statement. The Church teachings that Catholics have the fullness of the faith, it does not state that all religions are true. The Catholic Church is most complete and the One True Church.

That the Catholic Church is a more full understanding of God’s teaching is without question, but to reject Judaism is both cruel and a grave wrong, IMHO. If lay Catholics had a greater understanding of Judaism, we would have a far greater and richer understanding of our own Faith.

note: To say that the Church ‘turned a blind eye’ to the Nazi’s is overly simplistic and not fully accurate.You have only to look at how many Catholics died in attempt to save the Jews. Many, many Catholics became saints. The Pope’s position was not a simple one and there is a lot of misunderstanding about what happened during these times. Overall impressions have been greatly affected by media interpretations.

Taken from the Bishops’ Committee for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, National Conference of Bishops (usccb.org/liturgy/guidelinesjudaism.shtml). Excerpts:

"The message of the council’s statement is clear. Recalling in moving terms the “spiritual bond that ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham’s stock,” the Fathers of the council remind us of the special place Jews hold in the Christian perspective, for “now as before God holds them as most dear for the sake of the patriarchs; he has not withdrawn his gifts or calling.”

Pope John Paul II reminded us that “the links between the Church and the Jewish people are grounded in the design of the God of the Covenant” (March 6, 1982)."

In rejecting Jews and Judaic teaching one would be rejecting God himself and His plan, His desire for us. If Judaic teaching were untrue, so would Catholicism be, as this was the groundwork laid for God’s Church.

The relationship between the Jewish people and the Church is a living thing, as is our Covenant with God.

My overall understanding (MHO) is the Judaism was true, until (as in the Catholic Church now) mankind began to assert his will over God’s and distorted what God had created (legalism, as an example), as we humans are wont to do. Jesus cleaned house, as he did in the famous incident in the temple. Same is true now, in that we had this beautiful, living faith that Jesus fulfilled for us and we are handling it imperfectly as we humans do. It is still the One True Church, regardless of those humans who error. The one exception is our Pope, when he speaks infallibly. What a gift we have!

Perhaps it would help to look at this in terms of upgrading your existing faith, becoming more true to God. I realize that coming to this choice had to be difficult for you. Must there be a rejection of Judaism? Jesus did not leave Judaism, he followed it and then some. )

Algebra, we’re so blessed to have you in the Church! May your presence in the Church help to enrich us in helping us to understand the roots of our beliefs and the richness of Judaism and, by this, Catholicism. I pray that you will find the answers that are helpful to you.

peace to you

 

[Malleus_01]

While you agree with my premise, your words prove otherwise. Let me be clear, I do not agree with yours.
First, one can ONLY be saved INSIDE the Catholic Church. To believe anything different than that is to believe that God does not speak truth; since He has revealed that salvation is only attained inside the Church.

Malleus: I agree. Natural Law is compatible completely.

Second, the Church can never do what is against the will of God and reciprocally God can never go against what He has revealed to His Church.

Malleus: So then the CHURCH is equal to GOD? I agree that the CHURCH can never do what is against the Will of GOD - BUT GOD can do whatever GOD wants to do. HE is GOD. That is where you are in Error. Now GOD WILL Never go against what HE HAS REVEALED to his CHURCH (Hense did I say DE FIDE Remember) - BUT the CHURCH
doesnt ALWAYS Say that EVERYTHING it does is DE FIDE Correct? GOD has not revealed EVERYTHING to his CHURCH. Do you pretend that we dont NEED GOD?

If He has revealed to His Church (de fide) that there is absolutely no salvation outside His Church, then there is no Salvation outside His Church. No matter what St. Thomas says.

Malleus: St Thomas says that those saved through Natural Law ARE SAVED THROUGH the CHURCH. Apparently you are unfamiliar with the Summa.

Let’s remember that the Dogmas are the mouthpiece of Christ’s revelation, not the Summa, although the Summa is very important.

Malleus: And if you want to direct the forum to the parts of the SUMMA that are not in keeping with DE FIDE DOGMA , might I suggest you begin to list the items one by one and we can discuss them. I was unaware that anything in the SUMMA opposed Dogma. Apparently you are claiming otherwise. Feel free to expound.

Where did you get that God has withheld some truth from us pertaining to salvation, or anything else for that matter?

Malleus: Are you going to Heaven no matter what? Go ahead answer that question and you will have the answer to yours as to whether or not he has.

Please show me where the Scriptures and the Catholic Church teaches that He has not revealed all truth.

“Here, perhaps, it may be said by that presumption of man, which is ignorant of the righteousness of God, and wishes to establish one of its own, that the apostle quite properly said, ‘For by the law shall no man be justified,’ inasmuch as the law merely shows what one ought to do, and what one ought to guard against, in order that what the law thus points out may be accomplished by the will, and so man be justified, not indeed by the power of the law, but by his free determination. But I ask your attention, O man, to what follows. ‘But now the righteousness of God,’ says he, ‘without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets.’ Does this then sound a light thing in deaf ears? He says, ‘The righteousness of God is manifested.’ Now this righteousness they are ignorant of, who wish to establish one of their own; they will not submit themselves to it. His words are, ‘The righteousness of God is manifested:’ he does not say, the righteousness of man, or the righteousness of his own will, but the ‘righteousness of God,’–not that whereby He is Himself righteous, but that with which He endows man when He justifies the ungodly. This is witnessed by the law and the prophets; in other words, the law and the prophets each afford it testimony. The law, indeed, by issuing its commands and threats, and by justifying no man, sufficiently shows that it is by God’s gift, through the help of the Spirit, that a man is justified; and the prophets, because it was what they predicted that Christ at His coming accomplished.” Augustine, On the Spirit and the Letter, 9:15 (A.D. 412).

Also, show me where a Pope or Council (before your Vatican II “popes” or “council”) has ever infallibly declared that a person is saved outside the Church.

Malleus: Natural Law isnt ourside the Church. What part of that seems unclear to you?

 

[TEPO]

also the way the question is posed “is Judaism true?” is ambiguous. Of course the Hebrew Scriptures are true, God revealed them. Of course the history of the Jewish people and their relationship to God contained in those scriptures is true, because He revealed it and those books are written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Of course the Jewish law is true because Jesus Himself says it is. That is not the same as saying that all that Judaism teaches and practices today is true for all people, that all people are bound by Jewish law, and that the teaching of rabbis contains the fullness of truth. We have received further revelation from God, written the New Testament and handed on by the Church as authentic teaching, that Christ abolished to old law and established a new covenant. That does not however automatically invalidate everything contained in the Hebrew scripture nor does it mean it suddenly becomes “not true”.

If the Old Testament is infallibly the Word of God, then why does it say that God is a “jealous” God, and why is it important that we do not worship any false gods before Him, as if there are any other gods…?

Today the Church makes it clear that there is only one true God, and that anyone who accepts the monotheistic Creator, is accepting the one true God… I’m not sure that God would agree with this assuming the OT is right.