Does the Church teach that the Death Penalty

[vz71]

I can help with this:

2261: The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. The law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.

Ender

Thanks for the clarification.
I should have been more careful in my wording.
The statement was posed as “The Church is merely anti-murder, and mandates charity and mercy in the social order to the extent that is practicable.”

I should have asked for the specific teaching outlining ‘merely anti-murder’ as well as mercy only when practical.

You are right, words mean things and we must be accurate in our wording.
Perhaps this is where much of the confusion comes from. The CCC has editorialized the specific paragraphs concerning this and the result is ambiguity.

And we end up with our choice of slippery slopes that lead to problems.
Do we set foot upon the slippery slope that tells us that there is no practical way due to the legal system we have to lock away someone forever, therefore we must continue to execute people…and never seek change of the system.
Or do we set foot upon the slope that claims it to be technically possible, therefore no execution is right.

The gist of the teaching here indicates we should defend life from unjust aggression.
If someone must be executed because there is no other way to defend life from this, then that is what needs to be done.
But our purpose should be to find a way not to have to do this.
Of course, that is my opinion, and only my opinion. I am afraid the church offers no assurances either way thanks to the editorial commentary included in the CCC paragraphs.

 

[Ender]

“Pro-life” is the advertising/marketing/faction name for opposition to abortion. It is not, and never was intended, to be an all-encompassing ethical theory.

The theory that being “pro-life” means you must oppose executing murderers and killing enemy combatants, because those are also life (even though the term actually only applies to abortion), is logically identical to the statement “If you say you like Coke, you must approve of the recreational use of blow, 'cause that’s also ‘coke.’” The mere fact that the brand-name has other meanings doesn’t mean anything.

I don’t say your claim was mistaken, only that it was a mistake to make it. Yes, clearly the term has two meanings and you can be sure that the meaning we all agree with is the one you will be accused of rejecting. Don’t make it easy for others to ignore your real point.

Ender

 

[Neildown]

Here is a word-for-word quote from my Theology book, The Ark and the Dove - Our Quest for Happiness Series - Book Three:

"As a surgeon is allowed to amputate a limb to protect the welfare of the whole body, so, too, public magistrates, to whom the welfare of the community is entrusted, have the authority to inflict the death penalty on dangerous criminals whose crimes would be gravely detrimental to the good of society if left unpunished or if subject to a lesser penalty. Holy Scripture justifies capital punishment when it says: ‘Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; For in the image of God man was made.’ Gen. 9,6.

“However, only those vested with authority by the State may inflict the death penalty. No individual may take the law into his own hands and punish a criminal, even if the criminal is guilty of murdering a member of that person’s immediate family*. Before the criminal is condemned, moreover, he must be given a fair trial and proved guilty beyond every reasonable doubt. He should also be allowed some time to prepare for death.”

*This does not exclude defending someone or yourself while under or immediately after an attack, when the attacker still poses an extreme threat to yourself and others.

 

[vz71]

The theory that being “pro-life” means you must oppose executing murderers and killing enemy combatants, because those are also life (even though the term actually only applies to abortion), is logically identical to the statement “If you say you like Coke, you must approve of the recreational use of blow, 'cause that’s also ‘coke.’” The mere fact that the brand-name has other meanings doesn’t mean anything.

That you wish to take words, add your own meaning, and then run away with the distortion is not my problem.

Pro-life indicates an opposition to murder.
Enemy combatants are not part of this, we have a duty to defend ourselves and the innocent from unjust aggressors and an enemy combatant is exactly that.

As to your example of Coke, I believe it just indicates to everyone reading this just how far you are twisting.

 

[Hastrman]

I don’t say your claim was mistaken, only that it was a mistake to make it. Yes, clearly the term has two meanings and you can be sure that the meaning we all agree with is the one you will be accused of rejecting. Don’t make it easy for others to ignore your real point.

Ender

Ah, I see. Excellent point, and something I probably need to keep in mind.

 

[Birdpreacher]

If the DP is so great, then why dosnt God kill Cain? If it were the only just punishment wouldn’t God want us to see him make an example out of Cain, the first murderer in human history? Instead whoever kills Cain will receive the vengeance of God. So he is actually going as far as to punish anyone who attempts to give Cain the “ultimate justice”. Whats up with that?

 

[estesbob]

I knew that the church allows it.
Why do so many people, on here think you are not pro-life if you support the death penalty.

Because in many cases it is pro-choice Catholics trying to support their vote for pro-abortion candidates under the guise that a candidates support for the death penalty is just as egregious as the candidates support for abortion and accordingly you can vote for either. . This of course is not what the church teaches:

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Pope Benedict XVI

 

[estesbob]

If the DP is so great, then why dosnt God kill Cain? If it were the only just punishment wouldn’t God want us to see him make an example out of Cain, the first murderer in human history? Instead whoever kills Cain will receive the vengeance of God. So he is actually going as far as to punish anyone who attempts to give Cain the “ultimate justice”. Whats up with that?

It appears God exercise the death penalty on Sodom and Gomorrah, didnt he?

. I personally don’t support the death penalty under any circumstances but acknowledge that my Church does.

 

[Birdpreacher]

Because in many cases it is pro-choice Catholics trying to support their vote for pro-abortion candidates under the guise that a candidates support for the death penalty is just as egregious as the candidates support for abortion and accordingly you can vote for either. . This of course is not what the church teaches:

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Pope Benedict XVI

LOL estebob can you have one post where you dont throw out how the pro-abortion crowd is attempting to launch a conspiracy? JP II called for the abolition of the DP, was he a pro-abortion conpirator as well?

 

[Hastrman]

If the DP is so great, then why dosnt God kill Cain? If it were the only just punishment wouldn’t God want us to see him make an example out of Cain, the first murderer in human history? Instead whoever kills Cain will receive the vengeance of God. So he is actually going as far as to punish anyone who attempts to give Cain the “ultimate justice”. Whats up with that?

“Cain” is mostly a mythological ancestor of the Jews’ hated neighbors, the Canaanites. He can’t very well be a mythological ancestor if he gets smote without having any kids.

 

[Birdpreacher]

It appears God exercise the death penalty on Sodom and Gomorrah, didnt he?

. I personally don’t support the death penalty under any circumstances but acknowledge that my Church does.

Ok so its ok to kill gay people but not murderers? That cant be right. Did God make the mistake of not following RCC doctrine by not killing Cain? Or is life imprisonment just as viable an alternative to the DP in cases of murder

 

[Neildown]

Was my post just COMPLETELY overlooked again?

 

[Birdpreacher]

“Cain” is mostly a mythological ancestor of the Jews’ hated neighbors, the Canaanites. He can’t very well be a mythological ancestor if he gets smote without having any kids.

nothing seemed mythological about his murder. He straight up killed Abel. BEsides are you saying that we should spare evil people their lives because God has a bigger plan for them? SOunds awfully, anti-DP to me mister

 

[Ender]

I should have asked for the specific teaching outlining ‘merely anti-murder’ as well as mercy only when practical.

Well we know the church is anti-murder but not anti-all killing but we also know that she is also against killing except where it is necessary, which is not murder alone.
2264: If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful:
As for mercy, she also teaches that there are valid and invalid times for its use. It is not, as appears to be generally believed, appropriate to dispense in every situation.Hence Augustine says (De Civ. Dei ix, 5) that “this movement of the mind” (viz. mercy) "obeys the reason, when mercy is vouchsafed in such a way that justice is safeguarded (Aquinas)
There is a place for the judge’s mercy in matters that are left to the judge’s discretion, because in like matters a good man is slow to punish as the Philosopher states (Ethic. v, 10). But in matters that are determined in accordance with Divine or human laws, it is not left to him to show mercy. (Aquinas)

You are right, words mean things and we must be accurate in our wording.
Perhaps this is where much of the confusion comes from. The CCC has editorialized the specific paragraphs concerning this and the result is ambiguity.

I think 2267 is so badly done that it will have to be rewritten. It really is a mess. *Catholic teaching on capital punishment is in a state of dangerous ambiguity. … Moreover, the Catechism weaves doctrine so tightly together with prudential and factual judgments that it is not at all clear how much of its discourse on capital punishment actually is being put forward as binding Catholic teaching. *(R. Michael Dunnigan, J.D. J.C.L - [canon lawyer])
Ender

 

[Hastrman]

That you wish to take words, add your own meaning, and then run away with the distortion is not my problem.

Pro-life indicates an opposition to murder.
Enemy combatants are not part of this, we have a duty to defend ourselves and the innocent from unjust aggressors and an enemy combatant is exactly that.

As to your example of Coke, I believe it just indicates to everyone reading this just how far you are twisting.

Examine the etymology and lexical provenance within the modern English corpus of the phrase “pro-life”. You will discover that it near-exclusively means opposition to abortion, and not the fetishization of all biological viability as such.

And how exactly does my analogy show any twisting at all? Both “pro-life=no death penalty” and “I like Coca-Cola=I like cocaine” are arguments that terms with restricted, technical meanings (opposition to abortion, a brand of beverage) are actually being used in their usual conversational sense (all biological activity, the drug cocaine). It is, in fact, a classic fallacy, “appeal to equivocality”—the pretense that words with multiple senses are all being used in the same sense.

 

[estesbob]

LOL estebob can you have one post where you dont throw out how the pro-abortion crowd is attempting to launch a conspiracy? JP II called for the abolition of the DP, was he a pro-abortion conpirator as well?

The Church does now and always had allowd for the use of the Death Penalty. And my comments about pro-choice catholics will be born out again and again in CAF as we move towrds the elections.

 

[Ender]

If the DP is so great, then why dosnt God kill Cain?

If capital punishment was only to be used for protection why did God slay Ananias and Sapphira? It is a mistake to draw too many conclusions from these incidents. The Church hasn’t used either of them to form her position on capital punishment … and we probably shouldn’t either.

Ender

 

[Birdpreacher]

The Church does now and always had allowd for the use of the Death Penalty. And my comments about pro-choice catholics will be born out again and again in CAF as we move towrds the elections.

I am not arguing whether its in accord with doctrine. (In that respects I am shockingly in the sam camp as you for once I also beleive that the Church does permit it as a just punishment but that Life Imprisonment is also a just punishment (and a more preferable one in my opinion).

The potshot at these pro-abortion conspirators was unnecessary here as many Catholics, like me take a page out of JP II’s book and oppose Both abortion and the DP. It is insulting to paint us in the same light as a movement which has no compassion for life when we are fighting to protect the sanctity of life, especially guilty life.

 

[Birdpreacher]

If capital punishment was only to be used for protection why did God slay Ananias and Sapphira? It is a mistake to draw too many conclusions from these incidents. The Church hasn’t used either of them to form her position on capital punishment … and we probably shouldn’t either.

Ender

C’mon Ender, just seems funny to me that the first time a murder happens in human history God goes out of His way to make sure that no one harms Cain. Does this story answer the debate: no, Does it offer insight: yes

 

[estesbob]

I am not arguing whether its in accord with doctrine. (In that respects I am shockingly in the sam camp as you for once I also beleive that the Church does permit it as a just punishment but that Life Imprisonment is also a just punishment (and a more preferable one in my opinion).

The potshot at these pro-abortion conspirators was unnecessary here as many Catholics, like me take a page out of JP II’s book and oppose Both abortion and the DP. It is insulting to paint us in the same light as a movement which has no compassion for life when we are fighting to protect the sanctity of life, especially guilty life.

It is wrong to paint a moral equivalence between support of abortion and supporting the death penalty And whether you want to admit it or not it is the kind of rationale that lead 52% of Catholics to support the most pro-abortion president in history of the country