Does the Church teach that the Death Penalty

[Hastrman]

Well, if you wish to paint the lawful execution of someone as the same thing as fighting an enemy comatant, you are going to run into problems.

Is it really your contention that they are the same?
My apologies if I was mistaken in your meaning.
I believed you distinguished between enemy comatants and lawfully convicted criminals. So I answered it seperately.

I did not for an instant believe you equated the killing of an enemy combatant with the lawful execution of a convicted criminal. So I answered as I did believing you were not addressing the death penalty.

However this now leads to another possible point of contention…

I made no such argument. I was concerned to point out the fallacious argument—if you have never encountered it, I’d be interested to know how you get internet access on Mars—that a pro-life person cannot support either the death penalty or war. Do you deny that people make that argument?

Also, since the current argument is that the death penalty’s purpose is to protect society (and that it is not necessary to that purpose), you can in fact make an analogy between execution and war. I don’t favor that model of capital punishment—I think of it as punishment, not protection—but the Pope was the one who conflated the two.

 

[vz71]

We all tire of seeing the goal posts dug up and moved.
The argument presented failed, If you wish to lay claim to something else, fine.

At some point you need to get back to the original question concerning the death penalty.

The church has always stated that the state has the authority to use the death penalty under specific circumstances.
The church is now trying to push that these specific circumstances are few and far between.
I do not believe this is entirely correct.
The scarcity of circumstances where the death penalty must be used is something we should be striving for but is not something we are going to achieve in the near future.

If you have a disagreement with the logic, I would like to discuss it.
But I really am growing weary of this post mortum of a failed argument.

 

[Ender]

I like to think of it as a development of what is already in place rather then anything new. The church generally does not speak on something until it is necessary.
At no point in history has it been within our technical capability to remove someone forever from society without killing them.

I think you accept these claims far too uncritically as this one is pretty clearly untrue. Being sent to serve in the mines or on galleys or simply being imprisoned in a dungeon have been options for centuries, millennia even. Surely you don’t believe slaves routinely escaped from their bondage. During all those centuries when slave holding was not condemned by the Church there is not a word from the Church that sparing the lives of criminals by casting them into slavery was the preferable option. This contention simply doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

Because of this, the church must now re-iterate that all life is precious.

It is one thing to say that all life is precious - which the Church has always held - and quite another to say that taking a life is always wrong - which the Church has never held.

But if there is a choice available, then we risk taking a life for granted.

I think just the opposite is true.Capital punishment comes to be regarded as barbarous in an irreligious society, that is shut within earthly horizons and which feels it has no right to deprive a man of the only good there is. (Romano Amerio, peritas Vatican II)

And it is here that I believe the church is speaking to us. We must be reminded that all life is precious, that it all has a dignity that must be respected.

We don’t disagree on this point. We disagree about how best to generate that respect.*Genesis says murderers deserve death *because life is precious; man is made in the image of God. How convincing is our reverence for life if its mockers are suffered to live? (J. Budziszewski)
Ender

 

[Birdpreacher]

It is wrong to paint a moral equivalence between support of abortion and supporting the death penalty And whether you want to admit it or not it is the kind of rationale that lead 52% of Catholics to support the most pro-abortion president in history of the country

Abortion is always wrong- that is not debatable. As Catholics, our respect for life forbids us from supporting abortion

DP is not wrong. The Church permits it. However this same respect for life, “from conception until natural death” motivates some Catholics (like JP II and drafters of CCC 2267) to oppose modern implementation of the DP.

I agree with you that it is absolutely inaccurate to state that:
“If you support the death penalty then you are incapable of being anti-abortion.”

However there is nothing at wrong with saying:
“I am anti-DP because of the Respect for life, which guides my decision to be anti-abortion.”

 

[Hastrman]

We all tire of seeing the goal posts dug up and moved.
The argument presented failed, If you wish to lay claim to something else, fine.

At some point you need to get back to the original question concerning the death penalty.

…

If you have a disagreement with the logic, I would like to discuss it.
But I really am growing weary of this post mortum of a failed argument.

Failed? You’d have to know what it was to know if it failed, and you’ve demonstrated you didn’t, don’t, never have, and never will. It went sailing over your head, so high it’ll be back in 90 minutes.

I’m ignore-listing you from here on out, since you can’t even understand my arguments and embarrass yourself, and annoy me, whenever you respond to them.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

can be used?

There seems to be a LOT of disagreement on this. I know the quotes from the cathecism.

I just want to know if the church does or does not allow the death penalty to be used.

It should be non-existant in today’s society.

But the Church allows it if there is absolutely no other way to stop, like, a murderer from murdering, etc.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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Pending Moderator review.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

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Charity please…

 

[lisahiku]

I started this thread. I find there should be a black / white answer.
Does the church ALLOW the death penalty to be applied?
the answer is YES.

Some extremists want to paint those of us who support the Death Penalty as
ANTI life. this is unfair!

We have church doctrine on our side.

 

[Hastrman]

Abortion is always wrong- that is not debatable. As Catholics, our respect for life forbids us from supporting abortion

DP is not wrong. The Church permits it. However this same respect for life, “from conception until natural death” motivates some Catholics (like JP II and drafters of CCC 2267) to oppose modern implementation of the DP.

I agree with you that it is absolutely inaccurate to state that:
“If you support the death penalty then you are incapable of being anti-abortion.”

However there is nothing at wrong with saying:
“I am anti-DP because of the Respect for life, which guides my decision to be anti-abortion.”

I agree. I have no problem with a person saying they oppose the death penalty on those grounds, and advocating against it (as long as it’s not at the expense of other things). My problem is just with people who try and beat me over the head with the Pope’s opinions on it, and basically try to imply that my opinion on the death penalty is somehow un-Catholic.

(For the record, I hold that the death penalty is always at least theoretically necessary—that however rare it becomes a community can’t foreswear it entirely. At the same time I do think it is very rarely called for, although there are a few absolutely horrendous crimes where I can see it—I don’t object to it for murders that also involve rape, for instance.)

Personally I think the single best thing death penalty opponents could do would be to advocate reforms making the prisons both tougher and more secure. It’s ridiculous to argue that the DP is unnecessary when people get murdered in prison so often—and unlike the guys on death row, many of them aren’t in for capital crimes.

 

[estesbob]

Abortion is always wrong- that is not debatable. As Catholics, our respect for life forbids us from supporting abortion

DP is not wrong. The Church permits it. However this same respect for life, “from conception until natural death” motivates some Catholics (like JP II and drafters of CCC 2267) to oppose modern implementation of the DP.

I agree with you that it is absolutely inaccurate to state that:
“If you support the death penalty then you are incapable of being anti-abortion.”

However there is nothing at wrong with saying:
“I am anti-DP because of the Respect for life, which guides my decision to be anti-abortion.”

Souns like we are in agreement.