Does the concept of "leave and cleave" apply to men and women equally?

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Please try to keep your responses on topic. I’m not here for counseling or guidance on whether to get married, break up, or move…lol those decision belong to me and you do not have enough information to make any such judgement.

I’m asking what your interpretation of the scriptural verse is. Does it apply to men and women or just men?
 
TheLittleLady said:
In fact, during the time when Christ was on earth, the general practice was for a woman to leave her familial homestead when she married and to move into her father-in-law’s familial homestead. She became a member of that household now. That was cultural, not some sort of spiritual legalism.

As someone said above, do not ask your bride to “divorce” her family. That is simply cruel.
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I am not asking her to do that.
 
My responses were very much on point. I addressed your scriptural verse question also. Sorry if you didn’t like the answer. I would also note that these are discussion threads and we do speak about reasonably related matters, so you telling me to confine myself to just answering your specific question is a bit inappropriate, if not rude.

Good luck with this relationship.
 
Yours was an answer to a question that was not asked. Had I asked for advice on those topics which you brought up, I would have welcomed such a response. Please stay on topic in the future.

God bless
 
Although there should be some give and take, both families should have a place in your life.

Obviously, you can’t be at both places for Christmas or Easter. But that can be worked out with (name removed by moderator)ut from all involved.

So, no, you should not have to leave your family and cleave “only” onto her. No more than she should leave hers.
 
dailymassgoer said:
I am not perfect, but I am a strong and capable Christian man and I don’t require assistance from either of our families.
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We might be getting closer to the heart of the matter. If you’ll forgive me, pride seems to be playing a part here. Strength and capability go beyond proving you don’t require anyone’s help. Knowing when to ask for help, and not being threatened by it, is a real sign of maturity; there’s always the opportunity to reciprocate. As you grow a family and age, the relations you develop now are the ones you’ll call on.

Let me give you a small example from my own family. My grandfather emigrated from the Netherlands (Holland) in 1956 with 4 children aged 6 (my father) and under. It was his bold and grand plan to escape the post-war devastation of Europe and the poverty he grew up in. My grandmother was a fairly quiet and timid woman who didn’t ever drive. She was left to tend this brood not knowing a lick of English, having few relations because of the a fore mentioned and the fact that they moved about 10 times before they really settled in. Learning English (which took her years) was a point of pride for her as she struggled with poor self-esteem, poor hearing, and really only had her children’s school lessons to go from.

Why this example? My grandfather out lived her by a decade and was one of those self-reflective people who’s character never stopped growing. He moved beyond black and white and began to appreciate things that had greatly upset him years before, like some of his children (devoutly) joining non-Catholic churches. (I and a few other cousins got the lecture about staying Catholic as we went to college.) However over time, he began to appreciate that his children all remained strong Christians.

Now here is the point of all of this. He reflectively told me many times in that last decade that he regretted how hard the move to the US had been for his wife. He did not regret coming here, but they had a strong marriage and that was the depth of his love coming out.

I hope you don’t end up there. I hope you can find the strength to need not prove your strength. My father joined the Knights of Columbus years ago. While this may or not be for you, the KoC tends to skew towards older men, the fraternity of other strong Catholic men might be a place you to really find your deeper strength. Whatever the case, I think finding a group of mature men (not saying you aren’t!!) would help you find parts of you that you never really knew existed.

I hope you fully understand, that I in no way, see you as some selfish jerk of a man. I just see an opportunity for you to dive into a strong marriage recognizing that her wants/needs might be deeper here. While at the same time she can honor and respect your feelings. God bless.
 
dailymassgoer said:
No one’s answering the gender question here. Should I take the genesis verse literally or can it be applied to her family as well. She often invokes this verse and has told me that it only applies to me because I am the man – she says it’s different for her and that in fact, it’s important for her to remain close with her family as we get married.
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No you shouldn’t take the verse literally. For either of you.

And yes, it is important for her to remain close to her family. Just as it is important to remain or be close to yours.

And although you may be a strong, capable Christian man that doesn’t need help from anyone, she is sure to need relationships with someone other than just her husband. Be that her family or her friends.
 
I think it applies to women too, but in a feminine aspect of your relationship dynamics. You should respect and honor her healthy relationships as she should yours. Being a momma’s girl or a daddy’s girl doesn’t sound near as bad as being a momma’s boy though does it?
 
After marriage alot of women feel they Need there families love and support to raise children to give advice to drive over in the middle of the night beacuse they think something is seriously wrong ( when it’s something as simple as colic)
 
Only take It literally when the in-laws overstay their welcome and start interfering maliciously in your marriage, then proceed with a literal translation with caution .
Practically speaking, do you have a great job that will support her well, a house, where financially you could jeapardize that if you move that far away? Take that into account as well, maybe you should look for ways to move and sustain your independence as well, discuss this and remember to put her first and she’s supposed to put you first or It probably won’t work anyway. Just be sensible?
 
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No, it doesn’t.

It is funny that I was talking with a friend of mine whose son has gone off to college for his first year. We discussed the point you make, of yourself going off to make your way in the world. Her son is a really great one; but he is in a new world, new friends, the start to find a career, and he loves his mom - but it was crystal clear he was eager to get back to school 1500 miles away.

Men and women are different; they relate to people differently; they often have different goals and different ways of looking at the same goals. and part of your issue is how she relates to her family.

Another part of your issue, which you mention but which is far far more likely to be a source of trouble between you two, is how she relates to your family and how she reacts to when you are talking with them. I don’t know the source, but if you think taking her to meet your family is going to cure it, you are going to be in for an unpleasant surprise.

There is an old phrase that blood runs thicker than water; and until you have both enough experience and enough meditation on that experience, it is hard to explain it to you.

You have not told us how old both of you are, what your levels of education are (which can make a difference), and where each of you are in the line of siblings (which also can make a difference). But ultimately, none of us are psychologists or counselors.

I will make a suggestion, and that is that the two of you, well before you start planning the wedding, go together to a counselor and sort out these issues A few hundred dollars are a lot cheaper than the several thousands that an attorney costs. are your problems insurmountable?

No, I would not say they are; but they may be. You may think she will change, and she will - but there is a definite risk the changes may not solve the issues of family. I also suspect there are issues underlying what you have laid out which neither of you are aware, and even if you were aware, are likely to think ar not anywhere as deep as I suspect they go.

There is no shame in sitting with a counselor together for several sessions and apart for several to get a thorough understanding of what the rel issues are (they are deeper than you relate) and what possible solutions might be.

There is a very very old phrase: “If Momma ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy”. You want her to break away from her family and she doesn’t want to. There is also some undercurrent about how and why she reacts to your talking on the phone (and how will she react as you try to be closer to your mother when Mom is in need?).

I had a career as a divorce attorney, and I learned a whole lot about people, about their psychological makeup, and about how they came at issues in very different ways. I can’t suggest strongly enough that you both get to the counselor.
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And this is not about whose family is more serious about their faith; it runs far, far deeper than that.

You are all put out of shape about a scriptural verse, but seem to lack any understanding of relationships, particularly familial ones, and you seem to have little or no insight into your girlfriend.

You say you don’t want counseling? Are you listening to what you say? You want to make her into the image and likeness of your own values. Good luck with that. You can take my advice or leave it, but at 73 I would hazard a guess I know more about what it takes to get along with a spouse than you are exhibiting.

I don’t mean to be harsh, but others have made suggestion to you in good faith and with real concern; your abrupt retort telling the to say on topic about a bible verse speaks volumes. I would want you both to succeed, whether it is in a marriage with each other, with others or the single life. You are free to take heed or not take heed. It is the wise man who listens to careful counsel.
 
dailymassgoer said:
Really, my question is, is she right about the gender thing? And am I being unreasonable by wanting her to be a little more encouraging of my relationship with my family (as I have so clearly done with her)?
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Take this with the knowledge that neither my husband nor I have lived near either of our families for most of our marriage. We both remained close emotionally and I talked to my parents nearly daily until they passed away. I still talk to my siblings at least a couple times a month. My husband speaks regularly with his sister as well.

No, I do not think it is different for either gender. She needs to, not just should, SHE NEEDS TO encourage a healthy relationship between you and your family. I worries me that she has such a lack of empathy when hard times hit or sense of joy when good things happen. Annoyance when you speak to your family is very worrisome. Her sadness for leaving after a 3 day visit to me seems somewhat normal though. All of that is going to lead to resentment. If you started reacting in the same or similar ways, you too would wrong. It just goes down hill from there.

Anytime my husband’s family calls, as long as he is able (not at work or in Mass), I expect him to take the call. I ask if he has spoken with his family because it’s important to keep those relationships strong, especially when physically apart. So the fact that you didn’t take your family’s call on Easter makes me sad.

All this being said, you can only change you. You cannot “get her to come around” unless she decides that of her own free will. You can only change you.
 
otjm said:
Another part of your issue, which you mention but which is far far more likely to be a source of trouble between you two, is how she relates to your family and how she reacts to when you are talking with them. I don’t know the source, but if you think taking her to meet your family is going to cure it, you are going to be in for an unpleasant surprise.
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13pollitos said:
No, I do not think it is different for either gender. She needs to, not just should, SHE NEEDS TO encourage a healthy relationship between you and your family. I worries me that she has such a lack of empathy when hard times hit or sense of joy when good things happen. Annoyance when you speak to your family is very worrisome. Her sadness for leaving after a 3 day visit to me seems somewhat normal though. All of that is going to lead to resentment. If you started reacting in the same or similar ways, you too would wrong. It just goes down hill from there.
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Sorry guys, I only snipped a little from each post.

One thing to be sure of is that she doesn’t actually have a reason to dislike his family. It sounds as though they have not met. Which brings credence to that.

But if she does have a reason. Really listed to her about it.

For a while my husband didn’t understand why, although I would go, I didn’t enjoy spending time with his family.

Well, his mother was a witch to me, with a “B.” She would make sly under her breath remarks to me. Some that could be heard, but most that were only directed to me. Whenever I would speak, she would do her best to cut me off or speak over me. It took a couple of visits for my husband to see it. But once he did, it was easier to explain why I didn’t want to go.

Whereas my parents, both of them, adored my husband. We had a joke that out of all of my mom’s kids, she loved him best.

We tended to spend more time with my parents. It was fun and loving. When we went to his parents’ house, we both watched the clock.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
You’re looking for a religious justification for your personal preference here, because it’s just sounding like your preference is different from her preference.
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I concur with Yis_Bearself. There is no doctrinal basis for the archaic phrase “leave and cleave”; it applies equally to neither gender.

Leaving ones parents and becoming “one flesh” simply mean forming a new household apart from either’s parents and, and nothing about “cleaving” natural family ties and affections.
 
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maryjk said:
One thing to be sure of is that she doesn’t actually have a reason to dislike his family. It sounds as though they have not met. Which brings credence to that.
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My mother in law did not like me either. I still find it important to encourage a relationship. Honestly in my case that was pretty easy since we lived in a different country and aside from the year and a half we lived with them, we only physically visited once a year or even less at times.

It took years, but my mother in law and I actually became quite close over the years. When she realized I was good to her son and that we were together whether she like me or not, and that i was the one that encouraged my husband to call regularly and also visit when we could, it got better. By the time she passed away we were very close and we named one of our daughters after her. It’s hard for moms to be upset and resentful to the person who is encouraging their adult child to maintain a relationship with them. I am sure that at times that is false, but as a mom myself I can’t imagine why that would be.

I don’t think a spouse needs to be close to their in laws in order to encourage the adult child to be close. They can keep their distance while still being happy that the relationship is good. That is how it was for us for many, many years. At one point when we stayed with my in laws, my mother in law watched me wash the dishes and then she washed them again herself. She asked me to make her something to eat only to refuse to taste it. My husband was very good at sheltering me from her while still being a good son.

Culturally though, our situation wasn’t uncommon and we both grew up seeing that dynamic work. It is hard to explain to others whose culture may see family and the roles of family members differently and I can understand not knowing how to make it work or choosing not to. I went into marriage knowing that in most indigenous families in Latin America, the mother in law views and treats the daughter in law as an invader until she proves herself.

No, i don’t plan to do those things to my daughters in law. They will most likely be American and they would not understand. Plus I have learned better ways from my own mom. My mother in law was uneducated and only did what she knew. I know better
 
Do remember that she is probably thinking that when she has children she will need her mother, or want her mother. Few woman dont want their mother around for that experience. Try to have compassion about that. You will be there for her I am sure but child care and motherhood, tend to go down the female side of the family. I am sorry if I am saying this the wrong way, but there will be times when you will be grateful for that. Also being 1.5hrs away is not exactly like she is wanting to live on top of her parents, perhaps rather work on setting boundaries with them. Also perhaps think about why you (plural) have such issues with extended family? when children come along a supportive family network will be very helpful for the children. The joining of a man and woman in marriage, doesnt mean the family must be banished to the other side of the world, just that they are a separate person from the martial unit which is now one person. God bless you all
 
I think you need to get to the root of the problem here: Communication!
The two of you need to learn to talk about these issues openly and work out some sort of give and take. By trying to understand the verse in Genesis, it seems like you’re trying to find justification for her giving up time with her family. If you two get married, your priorities, after God, are with each other. Figure out a way to share time with each other’s family. You can do it! Alternate holidays with each family or plan one celebration with everyone. Whatever you do, talk to each other without selfishness, but with love for each other and your families.
For what it’s worth, I’ve grown to love my in-laws and my father-in-law is living with us .
 
13pollitos said:
It took years, but my mother in law and I actually became quite close over the years. When she realized I was good to her son and that we were together whether she like me or not, and that i was the one that encouraged my husband to call regularly and also visit when we could, it got better. By the time she passed away we were very close and we named one of our daughters after her. It’s hard for moms to be upset and resentful to the person who is encouraging their adult child to maintain a relationship with them. I am sure that at times that is false, but as a mom myself I can’t imagine why that would be.
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We have been married for over 25 years. She indicated that she didn’t like me when we met, and it never got better.

Ten years ago, she decided that she disliked me enough to cut off contact with me, her only child and her only grandchild. Up until that point, I did my best to encourage my husband to have a good relationship with his mother. It just didn’t work.

It happens. Some mothers just can not get over their child growing up and moving on. My mother in law is one of those people.

I am sure she is not the only one out there.
 
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