Does the conquest of Canaan show that YHWH is not a universal god?

[jcrichton]

It’s not about cookie distrabution. - I see it more as there are group of children and only one child gets the rule book. The other children break the rules without knowing what the rules are. The child that does know the rules works the system to his favor. He gets the spoils of the others rule breakers. It’s not a level playing field to begin with. YHWH has a chosen people and the rest are fodder. There isn’t an attempt to bring them into the fold. Just killing and conquering. It doesn’t seem to speak to a universal god but a tribal god that us mire powerful than other tribal gods.

…again… from our perspective… did Abel and Cain have a rule book?

…well… they did!

It is the reason why Abel offered to Yahweh God the best of his herd; Cain, ignoring the play book, just offered whatever…

We find throughout the Old Testament that there were people who, though not belonging to the tribes of Israel, did know about Yahweh… and a few that we know were influenced by the Holy Spirit (ie: the magi); but I refer you to Scriptures in order to understand (just a slight) the workings of God:

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? God forbid! 15 For he saith to Moses: I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. And I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (Romans 9:14-16–DRV)

18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. (1 St. Peter 3:18-20–DRV)

Since we are so accustomed to find evil in the workings of man it is not surprising that we may presume to know Yahweh God just as intimatedly… we would be wrong, completely!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

But that was after the fact. The conquest was a given. The rules spread with the conquest. It wasn’t " You better get in line it I’m going to give your lands to the Hebrews." they just came in and took them. There was no option of redemption to save their lands for the vanquished.

How did the magi know to seek the Immanuel out?

Why did King Abimalec recognize Yahweh as God (Genesis 20)?

…true, the Sacred Writings of the Old Testament was given to Israel, but we cannot rule out that Yahweh spoke/made Himself known to people other than the Hebrews/Isrealites (Romans 1:18-21); man has not changed (even Israel), he is still rebellious, seeking only to blame God when things don’t go his way!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

All right, let’s look at the timeline for the bigger picture.

Who did God first introduce himself to? (“Hi, I’m God…”)

Abram, right?

So out of alllllll the people in the world, he picked one guy to have a personal relationship with. And enter into a covenant with, including promising his descendants lots of land that was already settled by plenty of other tribes. And then makes another covenant with. And renames him Abraham.

Fast-forward to Abraham’s grandson, Jacob. He also has a relationship with God, and also gets a new name: Israel. And he has twelve sons, who found the twelve tribes of Israel.

Then fast-forward. God has a special relationship with the Israelites, who can all trace their ancestry back to that single founder.

And fast-forward some more. Jesus comes not only to preach to the Jews, but also to redeem humanity and establish a new covenant.

And fast-forward some more. Jesus’ followers are the Christians, who are scattered by persecution-- but in their dispersement, the Gospel is preached throughout the world.

And continue to fast-forward. We’ve gone from God only revealing himself to a single person, to the development of that relationship so that it encompasses his family, the descendants of that family, to the entire world. It’s kind of like an inverted pyramid.

At any point in that inverted pyramid, you can ask, “Why did God choose to reveal himself to Abraham, but not the guy down the street from Abraham?” or “Why did God choose to have a relationship with the twelve tribes of Israel, but not the Egyptians?” or “Why did God choose the Jews as his chosen people, but what about those poor Greeks?” or “The early Christians preached the best they could, but what about those poor Aztecs across the pond?” For that matter, you can ask, “Why did God take thousands of years to reveal himself gradually, instead of inventing a full-fledged worship process right from the start and just dropping instructional pamphlets (“How to Worship Me in 12 Easy Steps!”), Bibles, catechisms, and missalettes in everyone’s laps?”

“Why did God reveal himself via such a gradual process” might be a more honest question than “Those poor Canaanites! Obviously God didn’t love them!”

…and the answer is: the parable of the wheat and the weeds.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

If we are all God’s children then we should all be of value. The canaanites were just in the way. God didn’t do anything for them except let them fall by the Hebrew’s hand.

I’m focusing on the conquest. Since others started worshiping God through other religions isn’t of consequence. Muslems, Jews and Christians all worship the same God albeit differently. The Abrahmic religions aren’t called to kill Buddhists, Hindus and other non Abrahamic religions.

The fact that God does call for the destruction of the Canaanite tribes. It doesn’t seem to be the act of a universal father.

…you are still holding on to temporal values; though you have been shown that Israel did not just live it in the lap of luxury (which the Old Testament reveals to you) you are still caught up on your judgment of God… there’s nothing further that I can add to assit you… with the exception of “thou protest too much” (I don’t remember the exact quote or where it came from but I am positive that it is quite fitting!)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jonfawkes]

…you are still holding on to temporal values; though you have been shown that Israel did not just live it in the lap of luxury (which the Old Testament reveals to you) you are still caught up on your judgment of God… there’s nothing further that I can add to assit you… with the exception of “thou protest too much” (I don’t remember the exact quote or where it came from but I am positive that it is quite fitting!)

Maran atha!

Angel

Again, It’s not how the Hebrews were treated but rather the Canaanites. YHWH didn’t treat them as His own. YHWH treats them as the people of another God. So it seems that YHWH is the God of all mankind. There are other Gods. YHWH is only one if them.

 

[jcrichton]

Again, It’s not how the Hebrews were treated but rather the Canaanites. YHWH didn’t treat them as His own. YHWH treats them as the people of another God. So it seems that YHWH is the God of all mankind. There are other Gods. YHWH is only one if them.

…again, this is turning circular: you maintain your stance and do not even allow the information in the replies to sink past your epidermis…

Have you noticed how people disrespectfully use the lower case “g” to write/spell God? …here you maintain that there exist other god/s yet you employ full respect of these entities by using the capital “G?”

Yahweh is the Only God and He is Universal since it is He that Created everything that ever existed…

Are there two different people in Scriptures? Yes: Abel, who chose to please God and offered a form of worship that was pleasing to God (he offered the best of his animals) vs. Cain, who could not please God since his form of worship was haphazard (he just gathered things and offered them); Cain would eventually murder his brother–instead of humbly changing his offering… that propensity to obey or disobey God is what sets us appart from each other; it is not surprising that Yahweh God would chose to establish a relationship with the person/people who is seeking Him in humble obedience instead of the one/s that dismisses Him.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Augustine3]

There are quite a number good posts in this thread. In addition to them we must remember that God put Himself under oath; the Israelites were meant to be a light to the nations to lead all nations to God hence Israel is called God’s “first born son” extending God’s invitation to other nations to become His children. The Israelites lacked in holiness; nevertheless God had to remain faithful in His promise to Abraham as a result, if the Canaanites cannot turn their hearts to God due to the Israelites lack of holiness they had to be removed before they infect the Israelites with unholy beliefs and practices.

"I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you acted as you did in not withholding from me your beloved son, I will bless you abundantly and make your descendants as countless as the stars of the sky and the sands of the seashore; your descendants shall take possession of the gates of their enemies” – Genesis 22:16-17

God bless,

 

[jonfawkes]

…again, this is turning circular: you maintain your stance and do not even allow the information in the replies to sink past your epidermis…

Have you noticed how people disrespectfully use the lower case “g” to write/spell God? …here you maintain that there exist other god/s yet you employ full respect of these entities by using the capital “G?”

Yahweh is the Only God and He is Universal since it is He that Created everything that ever existed…

Are there two different people in Scriptures? Yes: Abel, who chose to please God and offered a form of worship that was pleasing to God (he offered the best of his animals) vs. Cain, who could not please God since his form of worship was haphazard (he just gathered things and offered them); Cain would eventually murder his brother–instead of humbly changing his offering… that propensity to obey or disobey God is what sets us appart from each other; it is not surprising that Yahweh God would chose to establish a relationship with the person/people who is seeking Him in humble obedience instead of the one/s that dismisses Him.

Maran atha!

Angel

Big “G” and little “g” is a convention of language not proof of anything.

Cain was marked as a warning to other people. Other people must have come from somewhere. Cain was the first offspring. The other people is more supportive of another origin story and another God to support it.

 

[jonfawkes]

There are quite a number good posts in this thread. In addition to them we must remember that God put Himself under oath; the Israelites were meant to be a light to the nations to lead all nations to God hence Israel is called God’s “first born son” extending God’s invitation to other nations to become His children. The Israelites lacked in holiness; nevertheless God had to remain faithful in His promise to Abraham as a result, if the Canaanites cannot turn their hearts to God due to the Israelites lack of holiness they had to be removed before they infect the Israelites with unholy beliefs and practices.

"I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you acted as you did in not withholding from me your beloved son, I will bless you abundantly and make your descendants as countless as the stars of the sky and the sands of the seashore; your descendants shall take possession of the gates of their enemies” – Genesis 22:16-17

God bless,

Where is the extended invitation to the Canaanites? They weren’t given a choice they were just conquered.

 

[midori]

Again, It’s not how the Hebrews were treated but rather the Canaanites. YHWH didn’t treat them as His own. YHWH treats them as the people of another God. So it seems that YHWH is the God of all mankind. There are other Gods. YHWH is only one if them.

I’ve already given my “proof” that it’s entirely consistent for a loving God to be perfectly capable of taking away things from some of his children and giving them to others of his children. You’ve yet to offer any real, logical argument apart from things like “that’s not how a loving parent would treat his children, so the people he treats poorly must not be his children” or “God must be afraid of other deities, so he’s eliminating the competition by killing off their devotees.”

Your ID marks your religion as “Catholic”. So you should be familiar with “I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth…” rather than, “I believe in one God among many gods, but my God is #1 anyways…”

Wasn’t going to ask, but since Angel pointed it out, you’re slinging around capital-G’s like you already made your mind up a long time ago, but oddly enough, your perspective/arguments don’t really jive with what I hear from my pagan and/or polytheistic friends. Your arguments sound more like someone who sat through a Survey of the Old Testament class, heard some anthropological discussions from the prof giving background about the theological implications of warfare in the ancient Near East, and grabbed on to those ancient ideas a little too enthusiastically. You’ve got some serious issues that you need to work through that seem to go a lot deeper than the subject of this thread.

 

[jonfawkes]

I’ve already given my “proof” that it’s entirely consistent for a loving God to be perfectly capable of taking away things from some of his children and giving them to others of his children. You’ve yet to offer any real, logical argument apart from things like “that’s not how a loving parent would treat his children, so the people he treats poorly must not be his children” or “God must be afraid of other deities, so he’s eliminating the competition by killing off their devotees.”

Your ID marks your religion as “Catholic”. So you should be familiar with “I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth…” rather than, “I believe in one God among many gods, but my God is #1 anyways…”

Wasn’t going to ask, but since Angel pointed it out, you’re slinging around capital-G’s like you already made your mind up a long time ago, but oddly enough, your perspective/arguments don’t really jive with what I hear from my pagan and/or polytheistic friends. Your arguments sound more like someone who sat through a Survey of the Old Testament class, heard some anthropological discussions from the prof giving background about the theological implications of warfare in the ancient Near East, and grabbed on to those ancient ideas a little too enthusiastically. You’ve got some serious issues that you need to work through that seem to go a lot deeper than the subject of this thread.

I’m just looking at the story of the Canaanite conquest. I know what I was told it means. I’m a lifelong Catholic. I’m a parent now, my new perspective doesn’t jibe with the story. I don’t tell some of my children one thing and not the others. I don’t punish my children for things and tell them the rules later. Even with other people’s children I correct them first. The idea if a trbal god is more congruent with the story rather than a loving father of all.

 

[Augustine3]

Where is the extended invitation to the Canaanites? They weren’t given a choice they were just conquered.

The news of the wonders of God proceeded the Israelites. An example of news proceeding is found below. If you heard that a god of a nation had worked wonders among the people (e.g. openingthe waters through the dead sea) and declared the land you live in belongs to his people wouldn’t you receive them with open arms and beg them to teach you about their god?

“Now Adoni-Zedek king of Jerusalem heard that Joshua had taken Ai and totally destroyed it, doing to Ai and its king as he had done to Jericho and its king, and that the people of Gibeon had made a treaty of peace with Israel and were living near them.” – Joshua 10:1

God bless,

 

[jonfawkes]

The news of the wonders of God proceeded the Israelites. An example of news proceeding is found below. If you heard that a god of a nation had worked wonders among the people (e.g. openingthe waters through the dead sea) and declared the land you live in belongs to his people wouldn’t you receive them with open arms and beg them to teach you about their god?

“Now Adoni-Zedek king of Jerusalem heard that Joshua had taken Ai and totally destroyed it, doing to Ai and its king as he had done to Jericho and its king, and that the people of Gibeon had made a treaty of peace with Israel and were living near them.” – Joshua 10:1

God bless,

No, I would fight anyone trying to take my land. Wouldn’t you fight someone who was trying to steal your home?

 

[Augustine3]

No, I would fight anyone trying to take my land. Wouldn’t you fight someone who was trying to steal your home?

Your attitude is exactly the same as the Canaanites. You’ve closed your heart.

God bless,

 

[jonfawkes]

Your attitude is exactly the same as the Canaanites. You’ve closed your heart.

God bless,

Give me your house. God wants me to have it.

 

[jonfawkes]

Your attitude is exactly the same as the Canaanites. You’ve closed your heart.

God bless,

I’m waiting

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 6:30[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Augustine3]

If the holy apostles asked to share your land would you refuse them? I wouldn’t…The same applies, the Israelites are God’s people

God bless,

 

[jcrichton]

Big “G” and little “g” is a convention of language not proof of anything.

I must differ with you; while Hebrew may not have vowels and upper/lower case letters… purposefully using lower case “g” in the word “God” is quite demonstrative of disdain (just check the engagements of atheists)… and your own redering of those who are non-gods.

Cain was marked as a warning to other people. Other people must have come from somewhere. Cain was the first offspring. The other people is more supportive of another origin story and another God to support it.

…with that reasoning it is easy to find spaceships in Scriptures and the various rendering (giant sculptures, pyramids, or giant graphics) as “must be landing marks for UFOs!”

Here are the non-gods:

10 Who hath formed a god, and made a graven thing that is profitable for nothing? 11 Behold, all the partakers thereof shall be confounded: for the makers are men: they shall all assemble together, they shall stand and fear, and shall be confounded together.

15 And it hath served men for fuel: he took thereof, and warmed himself: and he kindled it, and baked bread: but of the rest he made a god, and adored it: he made a graven thing, and bowed down before it. (Isaiah 44:10-11, 15–DRV)

Scriptures do not recognize any other God than the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, all others are not in any way shape or form recognized as Divine–yes even when given proper names/titles… they are still non-gods!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I’m just looking at the story of the Canaanite conquest. I know what I was told it means. I’m a lifelong Catholic. I’m a parent now, my new perspective doesn’t jibe with the story. I don’t tell some of my children one thing and not the others. I don’t punish my children for things and tell them the rules later. Even with other people’s children I correct them first. The idea if a trbal god is more congruent with the story rather than a loving father of all.

…so Yahweh God and the whole of the Old Testament should be thrown out of the Bible because you are now a perent and it does not jibe wity your parenting skills… should we also put it to a vote and have you become the 21st century god who is wiser and more mercyfull than that ole testament YHWH?

Read the Sacred Writings slowly… as the Holy Spirit to grant you the Wisdom that you need to reconcile yourself to God, in all of His Revelation!

May the Blessings of the Holy Spirit fill your home!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jonfawkes]

I must differ with you; while Hebrew may not have vowels and upper/lower case letters… purposefully using lower case “g” in the word “God” is quite demonstrative of disdain (just check the engagements of atheists)… and your own redering of those who are non-gods.

…with that reasoning it is easy to find spaceships in Scriptures and the various rendering (giant sculptures, pyramids, or giant graphics) as “must be landing marks for UFOs!”

Here are the non-gods:

10 Who hath formed a god, and made a graven thing that is profitable for nothing? 11 Behold, all the partakers thereof shall be confounded: for the makers are men: they shall all assemble together, they shall stand and fear, and shall be confounded together.

15 And it hath served men for fuel: he took thereof, and warmed himself: and he kindled it, and baked bread: but of the rest he made a god, and adored it: he made a graven thing, and bowed down before it. (Isaiah 44:10-11, 15–DRV)

Scriptures do not recognize any other God than the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, all others are not in any way shape or form recognized as Divine–yes even when given proper names/titles… they are still non-gods!

Maran atha!

Angel

God seems to think there are other Gods

[BIBLEDRB]Exodus 12:12[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Exodus 18:11[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Exodus 20:3, 5[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Exodus 34:14[/BIBLEDRB]