Does the conquest of Canaan show that YHWH is not a universal god?

[jonfawkes]

…so Yahweh God and the whole of the Old Testament should be thrown out of the Bible because you are now a perent and it does not jibe wity your parenting skills… should we also put it to a vote and have you become the 21st century god who is wiser and more mercyfull than that ole testament YHWH?

Read the Sacred Writings slowly… as the Holy Spirit to grant you the Wisdom that you need to reconcile yourself to God, in all of His Revelation!

May the Blessings of the Holy Spirit fill your home!

Maran atha!

Angel

LOL, No!

I just never thought about it in that way before, with a parental viewpoint. If I don’t tell all my children the rules and how to live, I am doing them a disservice. I can’t protect my children from the world, only how to navigate it. YHWH is not looking out for the Canaanites. He’s only looking out for the Israelites.

 

[jonfawkes]

If the holy apostles asked to share your land would you refuse them? I wouldn’t…The same applies, the Israelites are God’s people

God bless,

Are you going to give me your house or what?

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 6:30[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Augustine3]

Here’s a few of verses I’ve found that may be of some help.

“Let there not be found among you anyone who immolates his son or daughter in the fire, nor a fortune-teller, soothsayer, charmer, diviner, or caster of spells, nor one who consults ghosts and spirits or seeks oracles from the dead. Anyone who does such things is an abomination to the LORD, and because of such abominations the LORD, your God, is driving these nations out of your way.” – Deuteronomy 18:10-12

God is preventing the potential serious infection that may contaminate the Israelites hindering them from the Lord.

“When you march up to attack a city, first offer it terms of peace.” – Deuteronomy 20:10

This verse clearly shows peaceful terms are intended before war.

“You shall not move your neighbour’s landmarks erected by your forefathers in the heritage you receive in the land which the LORD, your God, is giving you to occupy.” – Deuteronomy 19:14

This verse really caught my attention. It proves the land belonged to the Israelites (their landmarks prove this) and it was taken without their permission. They are entitled to take back what belonged to them.

God bless,

 

[jonfawkes]

Here’s a few of verses I’ve found that may be of some help.

“Let there not be found among you anyone who immolates his son or daughter in the fire, nor a fortune-teller, soothsayer, charmer, diviner, or caster of spells, nor one who consults ghosts and spirits or seeks oracles from the dead. Anyone who does such things is an abomination to the LORD, and because of such abominations the LORD, your God, is driving these nations out of your way.” – Deuteronomy 18:10-12

God is preventing the potential serious infection that may contaminate the Israelites hindering them from the Lord.

“When you march up to attack a city, first offer it terms of peace.” – Deuteronomy 20:10

This verse clearly shows peaceful terms are intended before war.

“You shall not move your neighbour’s landmarks erected by your forefathers in the heritage you receive in the land which the LORD, your God, is giving you to occupy.” – Deuteronomy 19:14

This verse really caught my attention. It proves the land belonged to the Israelites (their landmarks prove this) and it was taken without their permission. They are entitled to take back what belonged to them.

God bless,

What are the terms of peace - “give us your land and we won’t kill you” ? - That sounds like a stick up.

How can God give them something that is already theirs?

The D-R reads a bit differently.

[BIBLEDRB]Deuteronomy 19:14[/BIBLEDRB]

It just seems to be the people that came before you rather than the Israelites (forefathers).

 

[Speedypizza]

Many people here seem to have some rather odd ideas about the Bible, the OT in particular…

About 2 weeks ago I was thinking some of the same things, how can God be so evil in the OT and so loving in the new? So I asked a Jewish friend of mine about some of the weird, evil sounding and just sick things in the OT, and he laughed for about 2 minutes. When he at last stopped, he explained that I was making a big deal out of nothing. For example, the story of Lot offering his daughters to be raped is just a tale telling us to be kind to house guests and strangers. Now I know, many of you are going to jump on me over this for 2 reasons.

1. We are not Jews (True enough, however we were, and understanding how the Jews see the OT is very helpful for seeing how we should see it, after all, Jesus was a Jew.)
2. You have some idea in your head that we HAVE to take the OT one way, the LITERAL way. Of course what you don’t seem to understand is that is how the Pharisees took the Bible, and you can see what Jesus thought of them…

Now when a Jew reads the OT, they read it in 4 ways, going deeper and deeper into the text, understanding what is meant by every word and verse. They do read it literally, but only to see what truth it might hold, not to stay there, and say, “See, the Bible says the earth was made in only 7 days, and I know it was.”

The same can be said for Jonah and the whale, and Noah and the arc. And important to this discussion, the stories of wars and God telling people to kill and rape, are meant to be taken like this… “We are the people of God, so what we do is Okay with God.”

You also have to remember that the Bible in these parts is telling a quick history of things that took 100’s of years to come to pass. So just because it talks about going in to a town or city and killing everybody, you don’t always know the rest of the story. In many of these cases, the Jewish oral teaching is that these groups were doing far worse to the Jews over and over again, and at last they have enough and attack. All we see is God acting like a monster, but the truth is that these people were far worse to Jews, and after trying to reach peace and it failing, they would attack.

I hope this helps those who are asking these kinds of questions some, as for the people who insist that we have to take every word literally, please do me a favor and become a Baptist… The Pope believes in evolution, and I asked 2 priests about this and they both told me my Jewish friend had it correct.

 Pax,

SpeedyPizza

 

[Augustine3]

“Thou shalt not take nor remove thy neighbour’s landmark, which thy predecessors have set in thy possession. which the Lord thy God will give thee in the land that thou shalt receive to possess.” – Deuteronomy 19:14

I’m getting different commentaries (Haydocks commentary etc.) in identifying the “predecessors”. Does anybody know if it means the landmark of the Canaanites or Israelites?

 

[jonfawkes]

“We are the people of God, so what we do is Okay with God.”

This the part that I have a problem with. If we just read the story of one Ancient Near East tribe fighting another tribe, it’s not a big deal. Times were more brutal, they were just acting like people of their day acted.

It’s when the actions are depicted as God’s will that I have a problem. First I think it does show that YHWH isn’t an universal God but rather a Tribal God of the Isrealites. Second it shows that YHWH’s morality is relative to the times that He is giving orders to man. If the social norms of the time allow for killing everyone in a town but we don’t find it moral today there is a disconnect, especially if it is an order of YHWH. Third as Catholics were believe that the end doesn’t justify the means. So no matter how bad the Canaanites were it isn’t justification to act immorally towards them.

 

[jonfawkes]

“Thou shalt not take nor remove thy neighbour’s landmark, which thy predecessors have set in thy possession. which the Lord thy God will give thee in the land that thou shalt receive to possess.” – Deuteronomy 19:14

I’m getting different commentaries (Haydocks commentary etc.) in identifying the “predecessors”. Does anybody know if it means the landmark of the Canaanites or Israelites?

Here is Young’s Literal Translation

'Thou dost not remove a border of thy neighbour, which they of former times have made, in thine inheritance, which thou dost inherit in the land which Jehovah thy God is giving to thee to possess it.

It seems to be an admonishment to not cheat anyone out of their land, trying to be sneaky about it. To have faith that YHWH has given the land and it will be yours in good time.

 

[jcrichton]

God seems to think there are other Gods

[BIBLEDRB]Exodus 12:12[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Exodus 18:11[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Exodus 20:3, 5[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Exodus 34:14[/BIBLEDRB]

…again, sorry to differ with you: Yahweh God Knows that there are no other gods; He also Knows us and cautions us to not place anything above Him!

He challanges us to seek a god that would deliver us from Him!

He seeks us out to be our One and Only True God!

Yet, He has no part with those who chose to place the images of creatures above the Creator so he allows them to succumb to their own machinations:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those men that detain the truth of God in injustice: 19 Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made. His eternal power also and divinity: so that they are inexcusable. 21 Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God or given thanks: but became vain in their thoughts. And their foolish heart was darkened. 12 For, professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. 23 And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man and of birds, and of fourfooted beasts and of creeping things. 24 Wherefore, God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness: to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (Romans 1:18-25–DRV)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

LOL, No!

I just never thought about it in that way before, with a parental viewpoint. If I don’t tell all my children the rules and how to live, I am doing them a disservice. I can’t protect my children from the world, only how to navigate it. YHWH is not looking out for the Canaanites. He’s only looking out for the Israelites.

Thanks for understanding my jest!

I think that I follow your reasoning… you consider being an effective, protective and loving parent if you are offering your children the very same information that they would need in order to function in the world–you consider providing enough info and support to supply the necessary culture and support that all of your children would need at every stage of their lives… this is commendable and quite reasonable…

…and then there’s Yahweh God… He plays with His Own Rules and sets up unattainable goals… He seems to even be pitting one group against another (so much so that that one group that claimed Him as theirs still cannot find their way to accept that, though they are the Firstborn, they are not the only children of God)…

…have you ever noticed yourself and/or your spouse having a preference for one child over another? It happens in the best of homes… it does not matter what the children do… there’s something one child has/does that differs from the other child/ren which tugs at the heart/mind/soul of the individual parent…

…it is similar with Yahweh God… the big difference is that He is not only concerned with our temporal existence, but He is speacilly concerned with our Eternal Life. It is from this vantage point that the Salvific Plan has been Orchestrated and placed in motion:

Adam sinned–we are all creatures of sin; Salvation Comes from the Lord–the Holy Spirit reaches out to man to make friends and servants of God; there is a distinct difference between creature and child–yet Yahweh God allows both the children and the creatures to fail in order to have Mercy on both: Romans 8:1–17; 9:6-8, 22-28, 30-33; 10:6-21; 11:11-12, 25-32

…as far as equality, did you not notice Jesus’ declaration: “…He allows the rain/sun on both the wicked and the good?” But in a time of temporal economy, God sought to dispose the land of those who were wicked in order to grant His children, Israel, a dwelling place… is the Creator of all not the authentic Lord and Owner of all?

In the new economy, that of the Spirit, God sent His Son to Save the world… the Incarnate Word took on the likeness of man so that in Him all sin (past, present, and future) would be eradicated–in His Divine Wisdom and Mercy He Preached, in the Spirit, to those spirits that were imprisoned prior to His Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection: all of mankind has been granted Salvation through Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

What are the terms of peace - “give us your land and we won’t kill you” ? - That sounds like a stick up.

How can God give them something that is already theirs?

The D-R reads a bit differently.

[BIBLEDRB]Deuteronomy 19:14[/BIBLEDRB]

It just seems to be the people that came before you rather than the Israelites (forefathers).

…sometimes there’s a circular situation in Scriptures… since it has been brought forth… do you recall Scriptures where Abraham is given the Land by Yahweh God? …it did not take place till hundreds of years later… after the exodus from Egypt!

…the Land, did not belong to anyone other than the Israelites!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Many people here seem to have some rather odd ideas about the Bible, the OT in particular…

About 2 weeks ago I was thinking some of the same things, how can God be so evil in the OT and so loving in the new? So I asked a Jewish friend of mine about some of the weird, evil sounding and just sick things in the OT, and he laughed for about 2 minutes. When he at last stopped, he explained that I was making a big deal out of nothing. For example, the story of Lot offering his daughters to be raped is just a tale telling us to be kind to house guests and strangers. Now I know, many of you are going to jump on me over this for 2 reasons.

1. We are not Jews (True enough, however we were, and understanding how the Jews see the OT is very helpful for seeing how we should see it, after all, Jesus was a Jew.)
2. You have some idea in your head that we HAVE to take the OT one way, the LITERAL way. Of course what you don’t seem to understand is that is how the Pharisees took the Bible, and you can see what Jesus thought of them…

Now when a Jew reads the OT, they read it in 4 ways, going deeper and deeper into the text, understanding what is meant by every word and verse. They do read it literally, but only to see what truth it might hold, not to stay there, and say, “See, the Bible says the earth was made in only 7 days, and I know it was.”

The same can be said for Jonah and the whale, and Noah and the arc. And important to this discussion, the stories of wars and God telling people to kill and rape, are meant to be taken like this… “We are the people of God, so what we do is Okay with God.”

You also have to remember that the Bible in these parts is telling a quick history of things that took 100’s of years to come to pass. So just because it talks about going in to a town or city and killing everybody, you don’t always know the rest of the story. In many of these cases, the Jewish oral teaching is that these groups were doing far worse to the Jews over and over again, and at last they have enough and attack. All we see is God acting like a monster, but the truth is that these people were far worse to Jews, and after trying to reach peace and it failing, they would attack.

I hope this helps those who are asking these kinds of questions some, as for the people who insist that we have to take every word literally, please do me a favor and become a Baptist… The Pope believes in evolution, and I asked 2 priests about this and they both told me my Jewish friend had it correct.

 Pax,

SpeedyPizza

…and the fruit was not an apple and the fish was not a whale…

…so Lot did not exist and Soddom and Gomorrah didn’t either… the homosexual explanation is that these were not destroyed by Yahweh God due to their immorality but rather that they were not good hosts…

…some people have found spaceships in the old Testament Writings…

…some believe that Jesus spoke about ets (other sheep not of this fold)…

…some believe that Scriptures attest to Jesus not being Divine…

…while it is good to seek understanding… we must be carefull not to embrace everything or believe that everyone has the best of intentions when interpreting Scriptures.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

“Thou shalt not take nor remove thy neighbour’s landmark, which thy predecessors have set in thy possession. which the Lord thy God will give thee in the land that thou shalt receive to possess.” – Deuteronomy 19:14

I’m getting different commentaries (Haydocks commentary etc.) in identifying the “predecessors”. Does anybody know if it means the landmark of the Canaanites or Israelites?

Since this is a teaching for the Hebrews, I believe that it was directed at Israel since the various tribes would receive an allotment and within the tribes the various clans and within the various clans the various families… however, I cannet see how this rule would not also apply to the land/property of non-Israelites.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

This the part that I have a problem with. If we just read the story of one Ancient Near East tribe fighting another tribe, it’s not a big deal. Times were more brutal, they were just acting like people of their day acted.

It’s when the actions are depicted as God’s will that I have a problem. First I think it does show that YHWH isn’t an universal God but rather a Tribal God of the Isrealites. Second it shows that YHWH’s morality is relative to the times that He is giving orders to man. If the social norms of the time allow for killing everyone in a town but we don’t find it moral today there is a disconnect, especially if it is an order of YHWH. Third as Catholics were believe that the end doesn’t justify the means. So no matter how bad the Canaanites were it isn’t justification to act immorally towards them.

…so in an era where people would eradicate their neighboring townships Israel should have announce itself as the inheritor of the Land (given to Abraham by Yahweh God) and ask them over to a wine fest?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jonfawkes]

…again, sorry to differ with you: Yahweh God Knows that there are no other gods; He also Knows us and cautions us to not place anything above Him!

He challanges us to seek a god that would deliver us from Him!

He acknowledges other Gods, He is jealous of worship of other Gods.

Where does He challenge us to seek other Gods?

 

[jonfawkes]

…have you ever noticed yourself and/or your spouse having a preference for one child over another? It happens in the best of homes… it does not matter what the children do… there’s something one child has/does that differs from the other child/ren which tugs at the heart/mind/soul of the individual parent…

…it is similar with Yahweh God… the big difference is that He is not only concerned with our temporal existence, but He is speacilly concerned with our Eternal Life. It is from this vantage point that the Salvific Plan has been Orchestrated and placed in motion:

Adam sinned–we are all creatures of sin; Salvation Comes from the Lord–the Holy Spirit reaches out to man to make friends and servants of God; there is a distinct difference between creature and child–yet Yahweh God allows both the children and the creatures to fail in order to have Mercy on both: Romans 8:1–17; 9:6-8, 22-28, 30-33; 10:6-21; 11:11-12, 25-32

…as far as equality, did you not notice Jesus’ declaration: “…He allows the rain/sun on both the wicked and the good?” But in a time of temporal economy, God sought to dispose the land of those who were wicked in order to grant His children, Israel, a dwelling place… is the Creator of all not the authentic Lord and Owner of all?

In the new economy, that of the Spirit, God sent His Son to Save the world… the Incarnate Word took on the likeness of man so that in Him all sin (past, present, and future) would be eradicated–in His Divine Wisdom and Mercy He Preached, in the Spirit, to those spirits that were imprisoned prior to His Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection: all of mankind has been granted Salvation through Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel

No, I love my children for the people they are. They are different people so I love different things - it’s not preferring one child over another. Your analogy is lost on me, sorry.

 

[jonfawkes]

…so in an era where people would eradicate their neighboring townships Israel should have announce itself as the inheritor of the Land (given to Abraham by Yahweh God) and ask them over to a wine fest?

Maran atha!

Angel

Ha!

Again if we are saying they are just warring tribes, then who are we to judge. We are of a different time.

But if we are to believe that they are acting on the behest of God, then war shouldn’t be a forgone conclusion. God is capable of all things - no?

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Ha!

Again if we are saying they are just warring tribes, then who are we to judge. We are of a different time.

But if we are to believe that they are acting on the behest of God, then war shouldn’t be a forgone conclusion. God is capable of all things - no?

Perhaps it can be both? Keep in mind that all of mankind is fallen. In terms of an overarching theme of Divine Fatherhood, God must make a covenant with a people, separate them, protect them, and by their example bring others to them to know Him. It makes sense to me that God would use the “primitiveness of their times” to enact Divine justice, while at the same time not condoning it. I see the overarching theme of the Bible as God reaching down to a fallen world and building His family with each successive covenant, like ripples in a pond gradually widening from where the stone struck.

In the long process of bringing his first-born child from darkness to light, he must indeed give them a grounding in basic morality. It seems that Israel failed its initial calling to be priests to the nations, and so laws were given that were not good (Deuteronomic); concessions were made. Extremes were enforced to ensure that mixing with the Gentiles would not occur, otherwise, ironically, the pagans themselves could never be saved for His people would be destroyed. A judgement on the “rightness” of God’s methods seems a bit presumptuous since we don’t have perfect knowledge of His predestination. God’s will always comes to pass, and people die in various ways. St. Paul has hinted that He places all people in their respective times and places so that they might seek Him, I have sometimes wondered if the people and even children that He allowed to be killed would perhaps never have sought Him to begin with, or perhaps would have caused an even greater evil…There is always a tension between predestination and free will in these matters.

 

[jonfawkes]

Perhaps it can be both? Keep in mind that all of mankind is fallen. In terms of an overarching theme of Divine Fatherhood, God must make a covenant with a people, separate them, protect them, and by their example bring others to them to know Him. It makes sense to me that God would use the “primitiveness of their times” to enact Divine justice, while at the same time not condoning it. I see the overarching theme of the Bible as God reaching down to a fallen world and building His family with each successive covenant, like ripples in a pond gradually widening from where the stone struck.

In the long process of bringing his first-born child from darkness to light, he must indeed give them a grounding in basic morality. It seems that Israel failed its initial calling to be priests to the nations, and so laws were given that were not good (Deuteronomic); concessions were made. Extremes were enforced to ensure that mixing with the Gentiles would not occur, otherwise, ironically, the pagans themselves could never be saved for His people would be destroyed. A judgement on the “rightness” of God’s methods seems a bit presumptuous since we don’t have perfect knowledge of His predestination. God’s will always comes to pass, and people die in various ways. St. Paul has hinted that He places all people in their respective times and places so that they might seek Him, I have sometimes wondered if the people and even children that He allowed to be killed would perhaps never have sought Him to begin with, or perhaps would have caused an even greater evil…There is always a tension between predestination and free will in these matters.

That makes God’s morality relative to the social norms of the day. It also makes God weak.If His salvation is so fragile that it can be ruined by mere mortals.

That doesn’t seem to ring true.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

That makes God’s morality relative to the social norms of the day. It also makes God weak.If His salvation is so fragile that it can be ruined by mere mortals.

That doesn’t seem to ring true.

I disagree. God’s objective morality does not change, and yet He makes concessions for us. Else, why the difference between venial and mortal sin? All sin is eternal to God. Why would divorce be allowed by Moses in Deuteronomy when in the beginning it was not so, and there is no mention of divorce in the mosaic? Is this a reflection of God or of us?

It seems to me that you are making an assertion about the weakness of God’s salvation based on only half of the equation: His salvation is *always *efficacious, but the receivers are weak. It sounds as though you are coming a bit too close to the common Calvinist argument of extreme predestination and irresistable Grace, in which any taking into account of man’s free will would be nothing less than a weakness on God’s part. Men will die and be judged. Whether by sword, or by laser beam. God will father us through the ages.