Does the high divorce rate among Christians undermine the credibility of what it teaches about dating and marriage?

[CaliLobo]

As I have posted before, I have gone through a breakup from a woman I felt was near-perfect.

The breakup has been the last straw for what has been, for the last 3-5 years, a time in which I felt I got no benefit from attending church services, though I got benefit from small group Bible studies and church events.

Therefore I have decided to quit Protestantism after 20+ years of following and believing. I have decided that I don’t need church to find God, be happy, or live morally. And like I posted before, if God is cruel enough to let me meet and love a near-perfect woman, and then take her away from me, then I refuse to worship him.

I feel that I have done a lot to cultivate my relationship with God, but that it was all for naught. In college, I spent time studying to get into law school and being involved in church, instead of partying and hooking up. But for what? Six-figure debt and a government job all the way out in the desert that barely pays? And social awkwardness? What a waste. I am the first to question the value of higher education.

I spent so many years cultivating a relationship with God and trying to be a good Christian person. But I can’t seem to attract women at church because they are so guarded about dating and have moral qualms about it. In 2000 the book “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” came out, which basically stated that dating someone who won’t be your spouse is a sin. Though churches no longer agree with this book, it has done its damage to the dating scene in evangelical churches to this day. All it’s done is make people at church awkward with the opposite sex…

Also, many women in evangelical churches are recent returners who want to repent from their sinful pasts, so they avoid dating until they heal from their pasts. To further boggle the mind, women at church ask “Where are all the real men?” But I try to get to know them, and they shy away or act guarded and defensive.

Meanwhile the recent male returners, who picked up all these game tactics from their life of sin, are able to impress the women with their bad-boy images. Why are the women not afraid of them, but afraid of me?

What **really **offends me is how all sermons about lust are directed at men, and men at church are made to feel guilty about their lust. It seems that feminism has taken over the church, making men out to be evil and women out to be innocent angels (see sunshinemaryandthedragon.wordpress.com). There is even rhetoric at some evangelical churches about how all men are potential rapists and potentially dangerous to women!

I’m tired of feeling guilty for being a sexual human being.** Instead of guilt-mongering (abstain completely or else you’re evil), I believe the church needs to realize that sexual sin is gonna happen, and to teach people how to manage their sexual feelings.** Because biologically, sexual feelings will never go away until age brings about impotence.

**My question is, does the fact that the divorce rate among Christians equals that among nonbelievers prove that the Church, despite all the stuff it teaches on this topic (which I have described above), does NOT have adequate or credible teachings or answers to provide to today’s people, when it comes to dating and marriage?

Why follow church teaching when the likelihood of success or failure is the same??**

I regret following what I now realize are imperfect, incorrect, man-made church teachings. I should’ve just partied and explored my sexuality more. After all, humans are sexual beings, and sexuality is normal right?

Of course, I was too socially awkward back then…

 

[Petaro]

Chesterton once said the Christian teaching was not tried and found wanting, it was found hard and not tried at all. The road is narrow and the challenges of modern marriage given the intolerance for any permanence in our society, is evidenced in the rise in divorce. However, in my opinion, without seeking to offend, the protestant churches refusal to accept the Biblical admonition against divorce that is found in Christ’s own words and the constant teaching of His Church aids to the failure of the family unit in our society and the growth of the alternate lifestyle as trendy.
However, I am more concerned for you personally. You have obviously had a hard road over the last few years with disappointments both in your job and personal life. I see any Christian railing against God as a sign of depression, a crie de cour rather than any rational response to his situation.
I have a friend who for years was lonely sexually and yearned for a good woman. He prayed to Christ and His blessed mother continually and like Job was disappointed. Then suddenly at the age of forty met a lovely woman who is now his soul mate and the mother of his child. Those not in despair tut tut that despair is the sin against the Holy Ghost. But I believe that despair is the natural condition of man without Christ. Do not give up. I am sure other posters will have more potent prayers for you; but I add mine just as a garnish.

 

[Starrsmother]

Petaro said it very well.
Also, I understand that you are crushed that your relationship with a “near perfect woman” came to an end. You remind me a little of my own oldest son whose wife left him for another man. You are blaming God for your pain, shaking your fist at Him in disappointment and anger. I know that, like my son, you will do as you wish. God gave each of us free will. If that includes a series of casual sexual relationships and experimentation, you may do that too. Let me just offer one word of advice. If this woman broke up with you, then was she really as “perfect” for you as you think? Would you be happier if she had stuck with you, maybe even married you, and then left you? There is a real, “perfect woman” out there for you–you just haven’t met her yet. The women you describe as “wanting a bad boy” aren’t really what you want–you have as much as said that yourself in the way you describe them. I will tell you what I told my son–and he didn’t believe me at the time I said this to him either–but he is now happily married to a woman who turned out to really be"perfect" for him. It took him over 8 years to find her–and like you, he was bitter and certain she didn’t exist for a long time. Firstly, look for your perfect woman in places you can reasonably expect to find her. You will never find your “perfect girl”, for instance, in a bar, drunk, hanging on all the guys and at closing time. Secondly, just because a girl hurt you, don’t lower your standards. ANYONE can find a spouse if they set their standards low enough. A pig will find another pig–a swan another swan. Swans don’t often settle for swine–just a fact of nature. Lastly, if you want a “perfect girl”, then begin to decide exactly what “perfect” means to you and be the kind of man that this “perfect person” would want to be with. If you want a woman with Christian values who hasn’t slept with every guy she met, then realize that she isn’t going to want to get serious with a “rounder”. I have been a woman for 62 years and grew up in the free-love 60’s. Some women–many infact–may date a guy because he is eye candy. But a truly intelligent woman will never get seriously involved with a male prostitute. We tend to believe, as women, that we deserve what we give. A woman who is a slut will gravitate to a man who is the same. A woman who is saving herself for her own “perfect man”, will expect him to have waited for her in return! Good luck, son!:blushing:

 

[St_Francis]

Cali,
Whose will are you wanting to follow? It sounds to me like you tried to follow God until He allowed something you didn’t want. As long as things were going your way, or at least part of gour life was going your way, you were happy with Him, but now the He took something away that you really wanted…

So what kind of relationship is that? The Creator of the universe, Who sent His Son to die for you on the cross, Who knows you better than you know yourself, has allowed this to happen. Why are you not railing against her? Because you accept that she has free will. Why are you railing against God? Who did you think He was? Do you really think Christ suffered His Passion so you could have the easy life with what you want?

You have been Protestant, and their theology is flawed. The fact that Protestants divorce and generally act like sinners, which we all do, does not show they are wrong; the fact that they do not have answers for you in your time of need and sorrow and anger does.

Catholicism teaches that this life is full of sorrows and suffering. Because we in the US are so technologically advanced, we do not expect to suffer, because there ought to be a technological solution. We can cure many diseases and live in great comfort.

But we are still human and we still need to suffer, because Christ didn’t die the death He suffered so that we could have the good and easy life. He suffered to open the gates of Heaven so that if we are worthy, if we are holy, if we are His friend, we can enter.

When I feel bad the way you do, I pray the Sorrowful Mysteries. I spend time pondering what He did for me, and that makes it easier for me to pick up my cross and join Him. This does not take away the pain but puts it into perspective. Maybe you can slowly read those prats of the Gospel and consider them prayerfully.

You are at a crossroads, Cali. On the one hand, God calls you to love Him, and to show that love with your obedience. This is the narrow, difficult way. You are looking at the wide, easy path which so many around you have chosen. Consider what Christ said about the narrow path and the wide path, and realize that those people are in your church because they got sick of the wide path, because it didn’t bring them happiness. They may still have all their old habits and sinful inclinations but that doesn’t mean that they are not trying to get away from that old lifestyle for a reason.

 

[ServantPD]

The breakup has been the last straw for what has been, for the last 3-5 years, a time in which I felt I got no benefit from attending church services, though I got benefit from small group Bible studies and church events.

And like I posted before, if God is cruel enough to let me meet and love a near-perfect woman, and then take her away from me, then I refuse to worship him.

I feel that I have done a lot to cultivate my relationship with God, but that it was all for naught. In college, I spent time studying to get into law school and being involved in church, instead of partying and hooking up.

I’m sorry, but I’m starting to feel that you were expecting benefits from your church service, instead of trying to have a relationship with your Creator. God Himself did a lot more to cultivate a relationship with you in pursuit of no benefits but just love. You pursued a relationship with Him in pursuit of actual benefits, luck with women and such. I suffered a lot with love throughout my entire life, but I don’t see that as an argument that God is cruel, but rather that He is showing me that I don’t need to have to look for that to be happy. And I did learned to be happy without them, it’s a heavy weight off my shoulders.

Are you expecting your life to be more fulfilled if you spent your time partying and hooking up? Are those worth the hangovers that you need to get through in exchange of that life? You’re creating way too high expectations of that way of life. Most people that live under that banner work their way to happiness with booze and partying, and I experienced both that and being alongside with God and learning from Him. I don’t even need to say which one was more productive and enjoyable.

I spent so many years cultivating a relationship with God and trying to be a good Christian person. But I can’t seem to attract women at church because they are so guarded about dating and have moral qualms about it.
All it’s done is make people at church awkward with the opposite sex…

Oh Lord… I ask you again, are you there to attract women, or to be with God? You’re there and not showing to do what you’re supposed to. And the point of saying that dating with no intentions of marrying is sinful is that it will only result in hearts broken and long-term bitterness in exchange of short-term pleasure (it’s really how many of the sins work, actually). Those girls you’re talking about are exactly avoiding that type of drama, and you’re just complaining that they do what they think it’s best. That kind of shows the type of respect you were having for them in the first place.

And your quote…*** “All it’s done is make people at church awkward with the opposite sex…”*** Uh… since when? I can tell by personal experience that girls trust me a lot more when we belong in a Church group, as they know I’m simply pursuing a trustworthy relationship with the help of God. I love them more than I did to any of my girlfriends, but I can abstain from obssession and just be their friends. It works wonders and leaves no suffering to any of us, and we experience the same joy as in a serious relationship with no special and personal commitment with one another (the feel that you need that is simply arrogant).

I’m tired of feeling guilty for being a sexual human being.** Instead of guilt-mongering (abstain completely or else you’re evil), I believe the church needs to realize that sexual sin is gonna happen, and to teach people how to manage their sexual feelings.** Because biologically, sexual feelings will never go away until age brings about impotence.

Well, read what our former Pope and future Saint, John Paul II, addresses that. Priests handle with that with methods that work wonders.

**My question is, does the fact that the divorce rate among Christians equals that among nonbelievers prove that the Church, despite all the stuff it teaches on this topic (which I have described above), does NOT have adequate or credible teachings or answers to provide to today’s people, when it comes to dating and marriage?

Why follow church teaching when the likelihood of success or failure is the same??**

That really goes down on the faith that people have on what they learn, and the society’s hedonistic culture had done a fine contribution in distorting the reality behind these beliefs.
On the “success” point, I believe I’ve addressed this pretty well already. If you understand what I said, you wouldn’t be asking the question because again, you were there for the wrong reasons.

I regret following what I now realize are imperfect, incorrect, man-made church teachings. I should’ve just partied and explored my sexuality more. After all, humans are sexual beings, and sexuality is normal right?

Of course, I was too socially awkward back then…

I’ve concluded through your entire post that you have not much knowledge on what the Church is teaching, and you’re letting yourself get blind by what is culturally accepted rather than the truth itself and love and its core. I may present you the quote on one of our brothers that writen in Catholic Answers Magazine… You may look at the entire article here.

The Catholic tradition of consecrated celibacy is supposed to threaten that debased cultural imperative and provide a counter-witness to the mere selfish indulgence of appetite that our consumerist society promotes. A civilization founded on the worship of pleasure is a civilization on a fast track toward ceasing to be a civilization. And an “argument” against celibacy that boils down to “Me want sex now” is not an argument but something more like the grunt of an animal.

 

[ichthystim]

Hey,

First off, I really relate to your situation: before reverting to Catholicism in the last couple of months, I was with a girl for 2/3 of my life, and we split up. I was devastated. I felt like the world, and God, had done me a complete dis-service. After all, I was living a perfect life. Right?

if God is cruel enough to let me meet and love a near-perfect woman, and then take her away from me, then I refuse to worship him.

If you acknowledge God’s intentionality here (“to let me meet here; take her away”), then why would you turn away now? Is it not possible that God is weeping with you in your pain, but knew that this might be the best for you?

I feel that I have done a lot to cultivate my relationship with God, but that it was all for naught. In college, I spent time studying to get into law school and being involved in church, instead of partying and hooking up.

Do you believe that God is all-powerful: Were you calling Him? Or was He calling you? It’s possible that He had his own reasons for keeping you away from that lifestyle, and that possibly it wasn’t all about your attempts at being good or virtuous. For as long as I felt that I had enough good in me that I didn’t need God, I was in a sorry way.

I believe the church needs to realize that sexual sin is gonna happen, and to teach people how to manage their sexual feelings.

I had a masturbation addiction for over 10 years: a life of misery spiked with hits of euphoria that I needed just to feel alive. Now, since my being a Catholic, I’ve had no form of sexual stimulation, and I wouldn’t change it for the world! But you see, I do not merely ‘choose’ this life: God does for me what I cannot do for myself. I do not pray for God to ‘stop me from masturbating,’ but I pray for His will to be done – temptation leaves me due to God’s power, rather than me fighting it away.

I appreciate that you have some bitterness towards the Church. I certainly did. But it took some humility for me to realise that I’m not perfect. Nor are you. The Church is run by humans, so it isn’t perfect either. But don’t forget: the Church is a hospital for the spiritually sick, not a breeding ground for the righteous.

---

I only became a Catholic after my girlfriend and I split up. But I wouldn’t go back (despite the temptations of the flesh). I thought she was perfect (of course she’s not, and nor am I.) But I worshipped her, and it was pure idolatry – I’d always worshipped her, and treated people as my idols. God, somehow, has saved me!

8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;

9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit. (Ephesians 2:8-9, New Jerusalem Bible)

 

[TomFromMD]

My question is, does the fact that the divorce rate among Christians equals that among nonbelievers prove that the Church, despite all the stuff it teaches on this topic (which I have described above), does NOT have adequate or credible teachings or answers to provide to today’s people, when it comes to dating and marriage?

It’s actually not. Self professed Christians have about the same divorce rate as the general population, but weekly churchgoers have a much lower rate. Especially Catholics

brewright.blogspot.com/2006/12/divorce-rates-by-religious-affiliation.html

Finding a spouse is hard. I don’t necessarily think that dating while not looking for a spouse is a sin, but it’s not a great idea. If you’re dating someone you don’t want to marry, especially for a long time, you might miss a person you would want to marry. I have to admit, I almost gave up myself, and dated a few people that really made no sense for me. Then I was blessed to meet my wife.

Lastly, Christian living primarily isn’t about being happy and making our lives easier. That may often happen, but it’s not the main point. The main point is living in a right relationship with God.

I really hope you find the kind of person you’re looking for. I’ll remember you in prayer.

 

[phoooiee]

Add to that that for those practicing Natural Family Planning in accordance with the Catholic Church’s teachings, the divorce rate is only 5%. This ties in to what others are saying- for those who devote their whole lives to following every aspect of Church teaching and seeking that God’s will be done through them, the rewards are great- but often it feels like one has to make impossible sacrifices before the rewards are even apparent.

 

[4most4christ]

Therefore I have decided to quit Protestantism after 20+ years of following and believing. I have decided that I don’t need church to find God, be happy, or live morally. And like I posted before, if God is cruel enough to let me meet and love a near-perfect woman, and then take her away from me, then I refuse to worship him…

The title belies the angst you have about finding a mate. I intend to be kind and helpful, so will you please answer this? : What do you believe God owes you, and frm where does that originate?

I ask because Scripture clearly teaches God spoke the universe into creation, and allows everythng else since to happen not because of any requirement, but because of His charitable and wonderful grace.

Your verbiage about your struggles indicate severe distress, and brother, please know that me and many people herein will read your post(s) and be in sincere prayer to God for you - because we understand God is essential, more so than oxygen. I would ask, for your sake, please don’t quit attending church. Thats where the devil wants to guide you.

My question is, does the fact that the divorce rate among Christians equals that among nonbelievers prove that the Church, despite all the stuff it teaches on this topic (which I have described above), does NOT have adequate or credible teachings or answers to provide to today’s people, when it comes to dating and marriage?..

Short answer: Yes, there is Biblical directin to finding a mate.
Slightly Longer answer: I professed to be a Christian at a time when I wasn’t in a relationship seeking to know Jesus Christ better. Within 6 months of God covnverting me, I had bought my 1st house, met the woman that has become my wife, and got adopted by a great dog. That’s part of my story; material possessions shouldn;t be our goal, but as I discussed and understood Biblical direction about good relationship and sexual patterns, I was humbled and found that my humility in not resisting with anger at my lack of a partner played a part in securing my wife.

As much as you want an equation to do so you can secure a wife & home happiness, you can find direction in what you need to do, a la Matthew 6:33-34, "…seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. ~Phillipians 4:7

 

[57thDimension]

A woman who is saving herself for her own “perfect man”, will expect him to have waited for her in return! Good luck, son!

This is really quite true. Various studies have found that assortative mating on SOI is enormously common.

Add to that that for those practicing Natural Family Planning in accordance with the Catholic Church’s teachings, the divorce rate is only 5%.

Which isn’t true. The only study ever done on that (which is where you got that number) was highly flawed.

My question is, does the fact that the divorce rate among Christians equals that among nonbelievers prove that the Church, despite all the stuff it teaches on this topic (which I have described above), does NOT have adequate or credible teachings or answers to provide to today’s people, when it comes to dating and marriage?

The (Christian) divorce rate is due, in large part, to Christians not following the teachings on sexual morality.

+Sebastian

 

[Xantippe]

Calilobo,

Why are you on a Catholic site, wanting the Catholic church to change its teachings because Protestants divorce a lot? I don’t understand.

Starrsmother said:

“If this woman broke up with you, then was she really as “perfect” for you as you think?”

Right.

“There is a real, “perfect woman” out there for you–you just haven’t met her yet.”

I disagree. There can’t be a good wife waiting for Calilobo if Calilobo is not ready to be a good husband to her. And right now, he sounds really, really angry with womankind. That sort of attitude is obvious 100 yards away, and will make any intelligent woman run.

“Lastly, if you want a “perfect girl”, then begin to decide exactly what “perfect” means to you and be the kind of man that this “perfect person” would want to be with.”

Right.

 

[DaisymaeD]

The rules and teaching of out Church are there for our protection. When we break the rules, suffering results.
Just look at the ladies in your church. OF COURSE they are scarred and wounded. They broke the laws of God. That were there to protect us.
I can’t really speak to the high divorce rate, but look at all the suffering that results from walking out on the spouses we swore to to stand by forever. Look how fraught blended families are. Look how much suffering the children of divorce have to endure, and how so many of them have grown up with serious trust issues.
All this points to what happens when we ignore God’s law. A lot of utterly unnecessary suffering.

 

[DaisymaeD]

Also, I realize you’re in a lot of pain over this breakup, but remember–nobody OWES you a romantic relationship. Not God, the universe, your ex–nobody.
I know a lot of times people get mad at God when they have a breakup, bit your lady friend was free to come and go (because you’re not married), and so were you.
I suspect this strong emotion is because the breakup is a fairly recent event. I’m sure I sounded harsh, but I really do wish you the best of luck in your search. It can be very frustrating; I’ve been through it. But the worst disservice you can do for yourself is to turn bitter and make a lot of really bad choices.
You really need to rely on your friends and family right now to give you emotional support and help you in your loneliness. And of course always stay close to God in prayer.

 

[Xantippe]

“Also, I realize you’re in a lot of pain over this breakup, but remember–nobody OWES you a romantic relationship.”

Yes!

The OP may find this helpful–it’s a discussion of “Nice Guy Syndrome.”

geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Nice_guy_syndrome

The idea is that this particular critter (the “Nice Guy”) thinks that women owe him romantic interest for being nice to them, which when you think hard about, is actually NOT a nice idea.

 

[CaliLobo]

You remind me a little of my own oldest son whose wife left him for another man. You are blaming God for your pain, shaking your fist at Him in disappointment and anger. I know that, like my son, you will do as you wish. God gave each of us free will. If that includes a series of casual sexual relationships and experimentation, you may do that too. Let me just offer one word of advice. If this woman broke up with you, then was she really as “perfect” for you as you think? Would you be happier if she had stuck with you, maybe even married you, and then left you? There is a real, “perfect woman” out there for you–you just haven’t met her yet. The women you describe as “wanting a bad boy” aren’t really what you want–you have as much as said that yourself in the way you describe them…

Lastly, if you want a “perfect girl”, then begin to decide exactly what “perfect” means to you and be the kind of man that this “perfect person” would want to be with…

Yep. I choose to be more free-spirited, and I’ve discovered that my happiness level hasn’t changed since quitting Protestantism. In fact, I feel a little happier knowing I can do something else on Sundays. I don’t have to go through the fake glitz and glamour and rock concert that is today’s Protestant church, and practice my fluent but fake Christianese conversations.

Trust me, she was as perfect to me as a woman can get. I would even say that “God provided her to me”. But I messed up by near-crying to her about almost getting fired from work, and asking her if she’d still be with me. I know now that I gotta keep my mouth shut, and even keep secrets, if that’s what it takes to keep a woman.

And I’m working on being “more perfect”… being less awkward, not taking life seriously, expanding my horizons with guitar and dance classes, wearing better-fitting and better-looking clothes, finding ways to enjoy my life more, and so on. I’m working on being a more carefree person that excites women and makes life fun and comfortable for them. If it means having a “badder” image, or taking on more dangerous hobbies, or playing rock or jazz guitar instead of classical piano, then I’ll do those things. If it means not acquiescing to women all the time, but being a challenge, pushing and pulling, then I’ll do that.

You say I don’t want women that want bad boys. But I prefer women that have some edge…

I’ve been single for life. I’m tired of it, and I’ll do almost anything to change it.

You ask if I’d be happy if she married me and then left me. Honestly, in this fallen age in which there are no economic incentives to remain married, and in which a woman can divorce a man for any reason, I’ll be happy to be married 10 years. How can I expect much more in this fallen world?
St Francis:

Whose will are you wanting to follow? It sounds to me like you tried to follow God until He allowed something you didn’t want…

Why are you not railing against her? Because you accept that she has free will. Why are you railing against God? Who did you think He was? Do you really think Christ suffered His Passion so you could have the easy life with what you want?

You have been Protestant, and their theology is flawed. The fact that Protestants divorce and generally act like sinners, which we all do, does not show they are wrong; the fact that they do not have answers for you in your time of need and sorrow and anger does.

Catholicism teaches that this life is full of sorrows and suffering…

DaisyMaeD:

Also, I realize you’re in a lot of pain over this breakup, but remember–nobody OWES you a romantic relationship. Not God, the universe, your ex–nobody.
I know a lot of times people get mad at God when they have a breakup, bit your lady friend was free to come and go (because you’re not married), and so were you.

4most4christ:

The title belies the angst you have about finding a mate. I intend to be kind and helpful, so will you please answer this? : What do you believe God owes you, and frm where does that originate?

…

Your verbiage about your struggles indicate severe distress, and brother, please know that me and many people herein will read your post(s) and be in sincere prayer to God for you - because we understand God is essential, more so than oxygen. I would ask, for your sake, please don’t quit attending church. Thats where the devil wants to guide you.

Nothing in my life has gone the way I wanted. If I had what I wanted, I’d be free of school debt, with a six-figure salary, a home I just bought, a network of friends, living in a town I enjoy (I was just in beautiful Denver this weekend, fantasizing about the possibilities), and the confidence that I can meet new women any day.

I have friends that have most, if not all, of those things. But I don’t have any of that.

I know that God doesn’t owe me a thing.

**If God doesn’t want to provide a girlfriend/wife for me, that’s fine. But I don’t need to worship him in return. I’ve decided I’ll be happier as an agnostic with a girlfriend than as a single Christian.

If God wants to play with my mind by letting me love her and then taking her away, then he is not a good God.**

I’m not railing against her because it’s not her fault; it’s mine for messing it up.

Many Catholics think Protestants tolerate divorce. They don’t. Divorce is a sin, but it can be forgiven and the Bible allows it in cases of unfaithfulness. The Bible doesn’t say that one must get an annulment to receive Communion again, and the Catholic annulment procedure might be good in theory, but is in effect a tolerance of divorce. I’ll leave it at that for now.

In addition, true Protestants (not Joel Osteen Prosperity Gospel types) fully accept that suffering is part of being a Christian.

 

[EasterJoy]

I know that God doesn’t owe me a thing.

**If God doesn’t want to provide a girlfriend/wife for me, that’s fine. But I don’t need to worship him in return. I’ve decided I’ll be happier as an agnostic with a girlfriend than as a single Christian.

If God wants to play with my mind by letting me love her and then taking her away, then he is not a good God.**

You’re not an agnostic. You believe in God, but you’re so mad and hurt that you’ve forgotten that having a life and a universe to live in ought not be treated like its peanuts.

Worship is something that is owed to God because of who God is.

*As he rode along, the people were spreading their cloaks on the road; and now as he was approaching the slope of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of his disciples began to praise God aloud with joy for all the mighty deeds they had seen. They proclaimed: “Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord. Peace in heaven and glory in the highest.” Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples.” **He said in reply, “I tell you, if they keep silent, the stones will cry out!” **

As he drew near, he saw the city and wept over it, saying, “If this day you only knew what makes for peace - but now it is hidden from your eyes. For the days are coming upon you when your enemies will raise a palisade against you; they will encircle you and hem you in on all sides. They will smash you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave one stone upon another within you because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”* ** Luke 19:36-44**

 

[EasterJoy]

*Bless the Lord, all you works of the Lord, praise and exalt him above all forever.

Angels of the Lord, bless the Lord, praise and exalt him above all forever.

You heavens, bless the Lord, praise and exalt him above all forever.

All you waters above the heavens, bless the Lord, praise and exalt him above all forever.

All you hosts of the Lord, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Sun and moon, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Stars of heaven, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Every shower and dew, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

All you winds, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Fire and heat, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Cold and chill, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Dew and rain, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Frost and chill, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Ice and snow, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Nights and days, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Light and darkness, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Lightning and clouds, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Let the earth bless the Lord, praise and exalt him above all forever.

Mountains and hills, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Everything growing from the earth, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

You springs, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Seas and rivers, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

You dolphins and all water creatures, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

All you birds of the air, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

All you beasts, wild and tame, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

You sons of men, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

O Israel, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Priests of the Lord, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Servants of the Lord, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Spirits and souls of the just, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Holy men of humble heart, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

Hananiah, Azariah, Mishael, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.

For he has delivered us from the nether world, and saved us from the power of death; He has freed us from the raging flame and delivered us from the fire.

Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good, for his mercy endures forever.*

Dan. 3:58-89

OP, who are you to admit God exists and yet to say, “If God doesn’t want to provide a girlfriend/wife for me, that’s fine. But I don’t need to worship him in return.” What?

Yes, you do need to worship God in return. Everything that has a voice ought to cry out in worship to God. If you don’t believe that, whatever it is that you have in your mind as a god is just as much a magic fairy godmother (or more precisely a magic genie in a bottle) as anything that Joel Osteen preaches. Don’t fool yourself about that.

 

[CaliLobo]

ServantPD:

I’m sorry, but I’m starting to feel that you were expecting benefits from your church service, instead of trying to have a relationship with your Creator. God Himself did a lot more to cultivate a relationship with you in pursuit of no benefits but just love. You pursued a relationship with Him in pursuit of actual benefits, luck with women and such. I suffered a lot with love throughout my entire life, but I don’t see that as an argument that God is cruel, but rather that He is showing me that I don’t need to have to look for that to be happy. And I did learned to be happy without them, it’s a heavy weight off my shoulders.

ichthystim:

Do you believe that God is all-powerful: Were you calling Him? Or was He calling you? It’s possible that He had his own reasons for keeping you away from that lifestyle, and that possibly it wasn’t all about your attempts at being good or virtuous. For as long as I felt that I had enough good in me that I didn’t need God, I was in a sorry way.

**
I just feel like 20+ years of faithfulness has given me nothing better than those people that led a life of sin and then just started coming back to church.**

And yeah, I don’t benefit from Protestant services anymore (although I have benefited from their Bible studies, activities, and mission trips).

Why? Because Protestantism has run out of things to say. I’ve read most of the Bible. I can predict what fellow Christians are gonna say when they talk “Christianese”. After 20+ years, sermons are just rehashing old themes. And I’m over it with the glitz and glamour, the high-budget video editing, rock productions, and pop culture aspect of it.

Is this all supposed to help me connect? It’s not working for me.

Regarding dating at church, what’s so difficult about helping people that share the same values date one another?

Rather, all I hear at church is condemnation about lust and past sexual sin, and all these rules about “courtship” that are man-made and not Biblical.

And the unnecessarily high amount of gossip and speculation that exists in Protestant churches when a couple starts dating. Why can’t Christians be encouraging and mind the business of a couple instead of speculating and spreading rumors? It leads to Christian couples keeping relationships secret from the congregation.

It’s made church the hardest place to find a girlfriend. Except for this girl that left me, I’ve never dated a Christian.

From high school to just recently, I tried to be the one that treats women the right way, the one that Christian women don’t need to be afraid of. But the women at church are 1) recent returners that are too hurt to trust a guy to date, or 2) so innocent that they’ve never dated at all, don’t know how to date, and don’t know what they want in a guy.

Or 3) I was just too quiet and/or awkward and the girls overlooked me.

I’m not scary, I promise!

Xantippe:

Why are you on a Catholic site, wanting the Catholic church to change its teachings because Protestants divorce a lot? I don’t understand.

Don’t put it all on Protestants. Catholics divorce too often too.

DaisyMaeD:

The rules and teaching of out Church are there for our protection. When we break the rules, suffering results.
Just look at the ladies in your church. OF COURSE they are scarred and wounded. They broke the laws of God. That were there to protect us.
I can’t really speak to the high divorce rate, but look at all the suffering that results from walking out on the spouses we swore to to stand by forever. Look how fraught blended families are. Look how much suffering the children of divorce have to endure, and how so many of them have grown up with serious trust issues.
All this points to what happens when we ignore God’s law. A lot of utterly unnecessary suffering.

Xantippe:

The OP may find this helpful–it’s a discussion of “Nice Guy Syndrome.”

All I can say is in some situations, walking out is better than suffering pain and abuse.

And I was a virgin in college and law school. What do I have to show for it?? Awkwardness with women, that’s what. Even some Christians think lack of dating experience is weird.

By the way, there’s a difference between nice guy and good guy. I wasn’t being nice to get something in return. I was trying to do things the right way because it’s the right thing to do, but I now feel it was for naught.

I regret my innocence. I regret trying to do things the right way.

 

[EasterJoy]

**
I just feel like 20+ years of faithfulness has given me nothing better than those people that led a life of sin and then just started coming back to church.**

And yeah, I don’t benefit from Protestant services anymore (although I have benefited from their Bible studies, activities, and mission trips).

Why? Because Protestantism has run out of things to say. I’ve read most of the Bible. I can predict what fellow Christians are gonna say when they talk “Christianese”. After 20+ years, sermons are just rehashing old themes. And I’m over it with the glitz and glamour, the high-budget video editing, rock productions, and pop culture aspect of it.

Is this all supposed to help me connect? It’s not working for me.

Regarding dating at church, what’s so difficult about helping people that share the same values date one another?

Rather, all I hear at church is condemnation about lust and past sexual sin, and all these rules about “courtship” that are man-made and not Biblical.

And the unnecessarily high amount of gossip and speculation that exists in Protestant churches when a couple starts dating. Why can’t Christians be encouraging and mind the business of a couple instead of speculating and spreading rumors? It leads to Christian couples keeping relationships secret from the congregation.

It’s made church the hardest place to find a girlfriend. Except for this girl that left me, I’ve never dated a Christian.

From high school to just recently, I tried to be the one that treats women the right way, the one that Christian women don’t need to be afraid of. But the women at church are 1) recent returners that are too hurt to trust a guy to date, or 2) so innocent that they’ve never dated at all, don’t know how to date, and don’t know what they want in a guy.

Or 3) I was just too quiet and/or awkward and the girls overlooked me.

I’m not scary, I promise!

Don’t put it all on Protestants. Catholics divorce too often too.

All I can say is in some situations, walking out is better than suffering pain and abuse.

And I was a virgin in college and law school. What do I have to show for it?? Awkwardness with women, that’s what. Even some Christians think lack of dating experience is weird.

By the way, there’s a difference between nice guy and good guy. I wasn’t being nice to get something in return. I was trying to do things the right way because it’s the right thing to do, but I now feel it was for naught.

I regret my innocence. I regret trying to do things the right way.

The elder son in the story of the Prodigal Son felt just this way.

I used to ask my catechism students what the Prodigal’s mistake was…do you know what they’d tell me? That he was careless with all that wealth. They figure that if he hadn’t squandered it all, he wouldn’t have wound up all hungry and alone. I think you’ll agree that they’re missing the point of the story.

So I would ask them: If this rich man had plenty of servants, then why do you think he was having his sons work on his estates? Why did they have to work at all? My answer? Because working alongside their father was intended to be the way they would become men like their father. And why was it wrong for the Prodigal to take all that wealth away? Because it wasn’t just sitting doing nothing. The estate was all being worked towards a purpose, giving people jobs, giving them somewhere to raise their families, providing a community. The Prodigal could not have done that with his half of the estate, because he had not matured enough to run an estate that way. He was too self-centered, and he was too short-sighted.

As it turns out, to some extent, so was his brother. What was his complaint? That the father didn’t give him a goat so he could do some entertaining that didn’t include the father. He, like his younger brother, wanted to do things his own way.

But what did the father say to the angry elder brother? " 'My son, you are here with me always; everything I have is yours." Luke 15:31. Do you get that? The faithful brother still had tangible evidence before everyone of his fidelity. The half of the estate that was not squandered was his. The fruits of *his fidelity *were still there in that place, whereas in his brother’s selfish wake was left…nothing.

There are temporal results to our service of God, as well as results of our sin. When we are forgiven, the damage we have done is not instantly repaired. The good we have failed to do is not there to be our crown. The good you have done is not forgotten by God. What God remembers, alone of all things, is going to last forever. On that account, you have been wise to serve God, instead of the world. You would be wise to keep doing that.

 

[CaliLobo]

OP, who are you to admit God exists and yet to say, “If God doesn’t want to provide a girlfriend/wife for me, that’s fine. But I don’t need to worship him in return.” What?

Yes, you do need to worship God in return…

No I don’t.

If the divorce rate is the product of sin as some posters claimed, then it’s clear that the church is ineffective (possibly losing relevance??) when it comes to teaching about dating, marriage, and sexuality.

If God won’t provide for me in this area, even by way of his church (you’d think that’s the way right??), that’s fine. But it means he doesn’t want me to be happy. If he doesn’t care about me then I don’t care about him.

Like I said earlier, I’ve been happier without the Protestant church since leaving it.