Does the high divorce rate among Christians undermine the credibility of what it teaches about dating and marriage?

[Gullveig]

Xantippe’s observation about nice guys is often valid. “Niceness” is relative. You might think that you’re nice. Other people may not think that you’re nice. I’ve known “nice” guys that were extraordinarily narcissistic people. When you scratched the surface, they really weren’t very nice (as evidence by the entitled “but I’m such a nice guy, why won’t anyone date me?” spiel, implying that the problem is not with them but with the entire group of people that they want to date), they were just acting a certain way because they believed it would net them a certain result. When the desired result didn’t manifest, their real behavior began to show through instead. Not saying that that’s necessarily you, but it’s something to consider. Is it really all these other things, or is it that you may not be as nice or attractive a mate as you think you are? Also, consider the role of free will of the girl involved. You might want her. It might seem like kismet. But if she doesn’t want you, that’s her choice. The Christian god doesn’t seem like the type to force the issue.

Honestly, you sound a lot like my ex-boyfriend from a couple of years ago. He was one of those nice, nerdy, socially awkward types as well and he was very upset for quite awhile when I broke up with him. He thought everything was great, but that was because he couldn’t see the problems he was posing for me in the relationship and refused to acknowledge them when I pointed them out (he went from being a not very religious Christian when we started dating to becoming very religious and involved Christian later on, and I felt like I was more of his pet salvation project than his girlfriend). He did the “Why did God do this to me?” thing for awhile, too. Once he was able to get his head back together after the break up, he was able to see how it wouldn’t have worked out, as we developed very different ideas about what we each wanted from a relationship and future marriage. Now we’re friends, and he’s decided to go into the ministry in his church, which he would not have been able to do had he eventually married me (Southern Baptists don’t take kindly to preachers with pagan wives apparently).

tl;dr: It seems weird to me that you would blame your god and be willing to abandon ship just because you aren’t being given what you want. Gods are not blessing dispensers that reciprocate your worship with cool stuff. They just are. They take a longer view of your life than you do, and when they give you things, they give you what you need, which is not always the same thing as what you want. Also, girls are not love dispensers that spit out love and affection in exchange for kindness. If the girl doesn’t want you, she is by definition not perfect for you. I would encourage you to relax a little. Really think about your attitudes towards women and towards religion and see if they’re valid. Maybe get some counseling, because you sound sort of angry as a person, as far as emotion comes through on the internet. Either way, good luck.

 

[4most4christ]

If the divorce rate is the product of sin as some posters claimed, then it’s clear that the church is ineffective (possibly losing relevance??) when it comes to teaching about dating, marriage, and sexuality.

If God won’t provide for me in this area, even by way of his church (you’d think that’s the way right??), that’s fine. But it means he doesn’t want me to be happy. If he doesn’t care about me then I don’t care about him.

On divorce rate, it seems you’re reaching an incorrect conlusion with “the church is ineffective”, possibly driven by your painful experiences. Pain sucks, yep, but consider that what feels like rejection is often God’s REdirection & sin is the underlying reason for our pain. God doesn’t desire to inflict misery on anyone. As proof I’d point to His Word and specifically 1 Peter 5:6-7
Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time He may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on Him, because He cares for you.
Do you believe that “He cares for you.”? He really does!!!

Brother, I humbly suggest more introspection into your heart (it often takes much more time than we want it to) than your mind. Scripture in many points directs to our heart instead if mind, to see where your anger lies, along with seeking & developing a sincere & honest relationship with Christ. Ask Him; He can take the anger you vent. It’s a churning process but that’s the refiner’s fire like Isaiah 48:10 “Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.”

It seems you’re demanding/expecting that Scripture and church teachings give you some exact equation to produce YOUR desired results. My friend, you can’t do steps 1-2-3 and expect riches or influential friends, presto-whammo, like some recipe. In an effort to help you, I meekly exhort you to avoid the tumult of agrument and humble yourself to the Lord to seek His Will, instead of seeking your desires first. I find it a constant effort well worth the time & effort, which helps you escape the billabong of selfish desires.

 

[The_Bucket]

Nothing in my life has gone the way I wanted.

W’sup bro. Welcome to the club. Well almost. Plenty has gone the way I wanted in my life, but many things have also not gone my way. I’m sure stepping back you’d realize that some of your life has gone your way. I mean, you’ve got access to the Internet, shelter, food, etc. Which means you’re better off than a huge percentage of the rest of the world.

**If God doesn’t want to provide a girlfriend/wife for me, that’s fine. But I don’t need to worship him in return. I’ve decided I’ll be happier as an agnostic with a girlfriend than as a single Christian.

If God wants to play with my mind by letting me love her and then taking her away, then he is not a good God.**

And here’s the problem my friend. You know what you’re saying? If God gave me what I wanted, I’d be happy. I’m not happy because I don’t have the stuff/people/whatever that I want. Ergo, God sucks.

So instead of being happy for what you do have, you focus on what you don’t have and you let it rule your life. Lucifer said as much for he wanted to be “free” more than anything else. He wanted to be God, not to serve Him. So his retort was the same as yours. Because you won’t give me what I want, I will not serve.

In addition, true Protestants (not Joel Osteen Prosperity Gospel types) fully accept that suffering is part of being a Christian.

Brutal irony here. You’re calling out Joel Osteen for not being a true Christian because he fails to recognize that suffering is part and parcel of the Christian life… and yet you yourself are saying that you refuse to serve because you’re suffering! See what emotions do to us?!

Yes, yes, easy for me to say because I’m married and have a family, right? Maybe not so much. Sure I have a family but I also almost destroyed my family because I was born into a household with pervasive sexual addiction that got passed on to me. It sure is a ton of fun to struggle with sexual addiction on a daily basis, go to SA meetings on a weekly basis and have a very poor relationship with my philandering father and my mother who covered it up and basically facilitated his actions.

But even with all that grotesqueness, I realize that 49ers coach Jim Harbaugh is right. “Who’s got it better than us? Nooooooooobody!” And I mean that with sincerity, even though I don’t really care for Harbaugh. I have to tell myself every day that nobody’s got it better than me, even those that do! I see plenty of wealthy people around me with nicer cars, houses and perfect families. At least on the outside.

Who knows what it’s like on the inside? Maybe it’s great. Maybe it sucks. I grew up in a wealthy family that seemed pretty perfect to people on the outside. On the inside it was pretty rotten. Perhaps instead of being jealous I should just pray for those who seem to have it better than me and for those who seem to have it worse as well. Perhaps you should do the same.

You don’t know what others deal with. Get outside your own head and your own life and focus on others. Whenever I focus on me, I find trouble. When I focus on others, my life and demeanor improves. I imagine that focusing more on others will attract people to you as well.

 

[The_Bucket]

If the divorce rate is the product of sin as some posters claimed, then it’s clear that the church is ineffective (possibly losing relevance??) when it comes to teaching about dating, marriage, and sexuality.

This just in: People sin. And I’m pretty sure that it’s always been that way. How is it the Church’s fault that people choose themselves over what God wants for them? I look at my own life; whose fault is it that I got heavily involved in pornography? Whose fault is it that I turned to it like a drug to deal with the anxieties of nearly losing my son and my wife? Whose fault is it that I got wrapped up in it to the point where I was being psychologically abusive to the people I loved the most?

The Church? No. I did those things. No one else but me.

If God won’t provide for me in this area, even by way of his church (you’d think that’s the way right??), that’s fine. But it means he doesn’t want me to be happy. If he doesn’t care about me then I don’t care about him.

That right there is the same mindset I had. If God won’t magically take away my anxiety, my fears, my worries, He doesn’t care. He’s not listening to my prayers. That is the biggest crock of all time. Could it be that He actually knew better? Could it be that I was the one holding out? I’m going with yes on that.

I wanted things to be resolved on my terms. I wanted my son to be out of the hospital. I wanted all of the health worries to be over. And failing that, I wanted God to override my will and just make me magically A-OK with everything. That’s not how it works. I have to consciously turn over my worries, fears, wants, desires, my whole being over to Him. He’s not going to take it. I have to give it to Him. And I have to do that daily. Hourly. Every minute. When I fail to do that, which is often, I drown Him out with my own thoughts and wants. I get angry. I get resentful. I demand of Him what He has allowed others to have. I imagine scenarios where I get what I “deserve” and others do not. And when that all happens, I commit sin. I commit sins of jealousy. Of hatred. Of pride.

And whose fault is that? God’s? He’s not saving me from sin because He’s not giving me stuff? That’s what I think when I get into that mindset. But guess what? When I think like that, I am the one who is wrong, not God.

 

[Xantippe]

“Trust me, she was as perfect to me as a woman can get. I would even say that “God provided her to me”. But I messed up by near-crying to her about almost getting fired from work, and asking her if she’d still be with me. I know now that I gotta keep my mouth shut, and even keep secrets, if that’s what it takes to keep a woman.”

1.I don’t think this relationship was meant to be. The only way I can see this having messed up a relationship that would otherwise have flourished is that you revealed too much information prematurely. More likely is that she’s not that perfect or that your relationship (in her opinion) wasn’t that amazing. Just one thing will not make somebody leave an amazing relationship. There’s usually a straw that breaks the camel’s back, but it’s not the first one.

If you have the guts for it (and if there’s no restraining order), you might want want to ask her, what’s wrong with me as a boyfriend? And then stand back, because you’re about to learn A LOT about yourself that you didn’t know before.

1. Why do you keep saying that you want God to give you a girlfriend (rather than a wife)? That’s a weird goal for a Christian guy your age (or even just a guy your age) to have.
2. There aren’t a lot of secrets that you can keep from a wife long-term.
3. Your self-improvement activities sound very good. I would add therapy, as well, because you need a third party to tell you how you look to others.
4. This may be very unfair to you, or you may just be temporarily in a bad place, but a number of your posts have had a strong odor of immaturity, selfishness, anger, and/or entitlement. You need to get that smell off of you before you’re going to be able to find a good woman. Just calling yourself “agnostic” is not going to make you a more enticing prospect.
5. I recommend hanging out at dearwendy.com. That’s a secular site and obviously I don’t agree with everything the commentors say on morals, but as far as dating and relationship advice goes, you can do a lot worse. You can submit a letter to Wendy herself or put something up on the forums. I think you’ll learn a lot.
6. If you get some random woman (or multiple women) pregnant while you’re doing your agnostic thing, what then? Either she has an abortion or she keeps the baby, and then 1) you get married to somebody you didn’t plan to get married to or 2) you pay child support for the next 18 years.
7. Your discussion of divorce is a weird red herring, given that what’s eating at you is dating trouble. Talking about divorce when you can’t even find or keep a girlfriend sounds lame.
8. You sound tired of standard Evangelical Christianity. I was the same myself when I started grad school. It’s OK–move on. Go to some liturgical Protestant churches, go to some Catholic churches, go to an Orthodox church, read Bonhoeffer’s Cost of Discipleship, read C.S. Lewis’s The Four Loves (if you haven’t already), develop your mind as a Christian.
9. Try Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University. It’s an Evangelical product, which you may not care for, but it sounds like you have money trouble, and it can only help.

 

[Xantippe]

Here’s another thought.

Calilobo,

You think you want a girlfriend, but girlfriends eventually turn into wives. Are you actually ready for marriage and parenthood? Marriage and parenthood is really hard. It means being around people all the time who force us to face up to all of our weakness and selfishness. It will mean helping with chores that you don’t even think need to be done, spending your new car money on unsexy home repairs, being awoken in the middle of the night by kids who have been having nightmares of giant bugs and then trying to stay awake and functional the next day, spending a lot of time dealing with other people’s poop and vomit, watching your spouse lose his (or her) hair, finding out that your baby died in the womb and you’ll never see her smile, being afraid your kid is going to be expelled from school, dealing with a spouse’s depression or other mental illness, coping with in-laws, discovering a child’s disability, realizing that the next time you take a vacation that’s not to family, it’s going to be in a different decade, etc. I’m sure others can add to the list.

Frankly, I don’t think you’re up to this yet. None of us really are, but I don’t think you’re really thinking about what the job entails, beyond just getting hired.

It’s not surprising that people divorce, when you consider what marriage and parenthood entails. The amazing thing is that so many people succeed, and so brilliantly. My parents, for instance, have been married 43 years and my grandparents have been married 67 years. Are they perfect? No. But they keep trying, and that’s all that it takes.

 

[EasterJoy]

No I don’t.

If the divorce rate is the product of sin as some posters claimed, then it’s clear that the church is ineffective (possibly losing relevance??) when it comes to teaching about dating, marriage, and sexuality.

If God won’t provide for me in this area, even by way of his church (you’d think that’s the way right??), that’s fine. But it means he doesn’t want me to be happy. If he doesn’t care about me then I don’t care about him.

Like I said earlier, I’ve been happier without the Protestant church since leaving it.

You don’t think of God as God, then, because your god is an equal that you can walk out on if you don’t approve of how he does things, not the Creator of the Universe without whom you would have never seen the light, drawn a breath, or thought a thought. You don’t serve your god; your god is there to serve you, and you worship him not because justice demands it but because it pleases you to do so. If you speak the truth about your god, and aren’t just talking angry nonsense, then you are headed exactly where your god was inevitably going to lead you.

That line of thinking is its own punishment, because there is no happiness, apart from God. The first creature to take on that line of thought forced God to create a special place to live out the full consequences of taking on that attitude permanently. I think you know where I mean. That is not a threat, but it is warning about the natural consequences of your bitterness and rejection of all that could do you good and give you life.

You have been deeply hurt, and an evil spirit is trying to use your pain to dupe you. Don’t let that happen! Do not throw away the glory that is in store for you for your faithfulnes! Turn to God, and live!

*Do I indeed derive any pleasure from the death of the wicked? says the Lord GOD. Do I not rather rejoice when he turns from his evil way that he may live? And if the virtuous man turns from the path of virtue to do evil, the same kind of abominable things that the wicked man does, can he do this and still live? None of his virtuous deeds shall be remembered, because he has broken faith and committed sin; because of this, he shall die.

You say, “The LORD’S way is not fair!” Hear now, house of Israel: Is it my way that is unfair, or rather, are not your ways unfair? When a virtuous man turns away from virtue to commit iniquity, and dies, it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if a wicked man, turning from the wickedness he has committed, does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life; since he has turned away from all the sins which he committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. And yet the house of Israel says, “The LORD’S way is not fair!” Is it my way that is not fair, house of Israel, or rather, is it not that your ways are not fair? Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD. Turn and be converted from all your crimes, that they may be no cause of guilt for you.
Cast away from you all the crimes you have committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel?
For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies, says the Lord GOD. Return and live!* Ez. 18: 23-32

 

[Michael57]

I have gone through a breakup from a woman I felt was near-perfect.

I get it. You’re angry.

though I got benefit from small group Bible studies and church events.

What “benefit” from Bible study? Just curious…sounds like you’ve been heading for the doors for a while.

Therefore I have decided to quit Protestantism after 20+ years…God is cruel enough to…then…I refuse to worship him.

Taking yourself hostage again?

I feel that I have done a lot to cultivate my relationship with God…

Do you assess everything by your feelings?

I spent time studying to get into law school…

Many don’t get the opportunity that you have.

What a waste. I am the first to question the value of higher education.

Education is what you make of it.

I spent so many years cultivating a relationship with God and trying to be a good Christian person.

And now you, a disgruntled ex-Protestant (or whatever you care to call yourself), are here at a Catholic website, telling Catholics that the Catholic Church is in error and we need to change it right away and get with the program, when, in fact, you have shown time and again that you know nothing about the teaching of the Catholic Church? Some might call that a tad presumptuous.

But I can’t seem to attract women at church because they are so guarded about dating and have moral qualms about it. In 2000 the book…

I don’t buy your assessment.

Also, many women in evangelical churches are recent returners…

Here’s a novel approach: Find a good Catholic woman that loves you. Sounds like you haven’t tried that yet. It couldn’t be worse than what you’ve already experienced.

Meanwhile the recent male returners…

Why even concern yourself with what other people do, in a church that you don’t even like? It’s not a competition, be your best self.

What really offends me is how all sermons about lust are…feminism has taken over the church…men…evil and women…innocent angels (see URL = removed because it’s ridiculous imho ). There is even rhetoric at some evangelical churches…

Yeah…Well, modernism ain’t what it used to be…and you rightly point out that there’s more involved. But again, you’re here at a Catholic website dismissing what a Protestant church teaches. How does that apply here, except to fuel your anger?

I’m tired of feeling guilty for being a sexual human being…

You don’t even understand the Catholic teachings on Chastity. Here is a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding the teaching on Chastity. LINK

My question is, does the fact that the divorce rate among Christians equals that among nonbelievers prove that the Church…

It only proves that they are human, and flawed. The Church is not a place for perfect people, it is a hospital for those that are sick and disabled by sin. It is a place for healing.

Do you also argue that because there is still disease, that no medical treatment should be given?

Why follow church teaching when…

Follow the Church teachings because of faith in God, who established His Church.

I regret following what I now realize are imperfect, incorrect, man-made church teachings.

It sounds like you reject the Catholic Church teachings even before you know or understand them.

I should’ve just partied and explored my sexuality more.

You probably saved yourself from a lot of misery by practicing chastity and sober living when you did. I don’t think you will find satisfaction in the long-run in heading into a sinful and licentious lifestyle. Don’t get pulled into the “coulda, woulda, shoulda” business. Look ahead.

Of course, I was too socially awkward back then…

Everyone is.

You’re angry. You blame the Church. You blame God.

You think the Church should change to fit your ideology and beliefs, yet you have no real understanding of what the Church even teaches.

You throw out challenge after challenge, and yet you refuse to engage in anything like debate or discussion over it. And you don’t seem to respond at all when others here try to address your questions, accusations, and concerns.

You have no faith, so you don’t understand things of faith.

I pray that God gives you the grace and the faith to follow Him, and cast off all these things that cause you pain, grief, and anger.

 

[underacloud]

By the way, there’s a difference between nice guy and good guy. I wasn’t being nice to get something in return. I was trying to do things the right way because it’s the right thing to do, but I now feel it was for naught.

What?

You didn’t expect to get something in return, but now you’re upset because, well, you didn’t get something in return.

Anyway, let’s put that contradiction aside…

Regarding marriage, keep a few things in mind:

As discussed, marriages by Church going Catholics, especially those who practise NFP (an indicator that they take their faith very seriously) are much less likely to end in divorce. This fact seems to hold true across religious practise in general; people who actively participate in their religion, rather than just nominate as such, have much lower divorce rates.

Divorce statistics tend to hide a few factors that are actually in favour of marriage, such as the typical divorce statistic of ~50% for all marriages; the number is lower, at ~40% for first marriages and much higher for second or third marriages. One may conclude from this that the overall divorce statistic is inflated by people who are more likely to accept divorce to begin with.

Divorce is lower among people with higher education, such as yourself.

Divorce is much lower for couples who have children. This is entirely in keeping with what the Church teaches regarding the purpose of marriage.

Divorce is lower for couples who do not live together prior to marriage; again, Church teaching shown to work.

Divorce is lower for couples who marry when they are older. Rates are high for teen marriages, a bit lower for early tewenties marriages, and better for mid to late 20s. So this is in your favour. Coming late to the game is no problem.

So overall, if you want a sucessful marriage, your best chances are by practising your religion, by being well educated (tick), by not living together before marriage, and by having children after marriage. So I wouldn’t give up on the Catholic approach just yet.

Also consider the statistics that routinely show married people have more sex than single people. Catholics are not anti sex, or don’t know how to handle our God-given sexuality. We love sex! We just know it has a proper place and purpose.

Good luck with all this. You are clearly hurting right now, so I hope and pray that you’ll see some light at the end of this dark tunnel.

 

[Cat]

I’m a woman, age 56, with two daughters (30 and 27, and the younger one is married for five years to a man that she dated for seven years). My husband and I were Evangelical Protestant for 47 years before converting to Catholicism in 2004.

CaliLobo, you sound like a self-absorbed person who doesn’t know who you are, and so you do and say a lot of fake things to attract women. Women don’t like men who are not real. They sense the insincerity and run away from you.

Don’t do things merely to attract a woman. Do things because you like like doing them, and don’t worry about what others think. Be real. Even if that means being “socially awkward”–believe it or not, women are attracted to men who are socially awkward if the man has virtues.

E.g., Don’t take guitar lessons because you want to look “bad” and attract women. Take guitar lessons–or classical piano lessons–because you love guitar music or classical piano music, and want to spend your time doing something enjoyable. Women love sincerity, honesty, straightforwardness. They want a man who is real.

Work on your virtues. Try to cultivate love, joy, peace, kindness, and all the other Fruit of the Spirit in your life. Women love a man who is kind, self-controlled, etc.

You also sound like you have a chip on your shoulder–no, not a chip, a boulder. I can tell you right now that good women do NOT like anyone, man or woman, who has such a negative attitude towards life, love, and God. Get rid of that chip.

Read Daniel 3 (from a Protestant Bible). This is the story of three young men who refused to worship the king’s image, so they were thrown into the fiery furnace. How do you suppose they felt about God when they continued to worship Him, and instead of being rewarded by God, were condemned to be executed in the fiery furnace? Wow–what a betrayal! Why bother to worship God if all you get is a deep-fat frying?

Years ago, I wrote a children’s song about what these three young men said in response to the king after he condemned them to die. Here are the words to the song, straight from Daniel 3: 17-18:

Our God Whom we serve is able to deliver us.
Our God Whom we honor is mightier than men.
But even if He chooses NOT to deliver us
We will still serve and honor Him.

Whenever I have the opportunity to teach this song to children, I tell them that they will go through a lot of hard times during their lives, and that perhaps they are going through a hard time right now. I tell them to remember that God will not always deliver them from hard times, and that they need to serve and honor Him no matter what happens. It doesn’t seem to make sense, but it’s the Truth, and in doing what is truth, humans find fulfillment.

If you want to stay Protestant, then abandon all the churches with a “style” that puts you off and doesn’t help you get closer to God. There are plenty of Protestant churches around. Try to find one that is more right for you–which might be difficult until you have figured out who you really are and what you really like. But you should have some idea of what kind of music, preaching, people, physical design, activities, etc. helps you rather than hinders you. Perhaps a small, family-style church would be a better fit for you. Or perhaps you should seek out a very traditional mainline church that does Bach on the pipe organ and has somehow managed to avoid becoming pro-abortion and pro-women pastors. Don’t give up on church until you have visited every church in your area. Yes, I know that is discouraging and frustrating, but keep at it.

You ask whether it is worth continuing to worship God–yes! Even though it’s hard for you to see it right now, at the end of your life, you will realize that the most worthwhile thing you have done is worship and trust God. And the best worship is done by those who receive nothing in return (nothing visible or tangible), because they are truly worshiping in faith, expecting nothing but hoping for mercy.

I hope some of this advice is helpful. Good luck to you.

 

[Sheeniac]

Life is short, eternity long.

We worship God not because of this world, but because of the next. We’re only pilgrims here. My life was most miserable when I was younger (alcoholic father, diagnosis of a childhood bone cancer, etc.) - I turned away from God and to atheism.

That didn’t make me happy either.

At the age of 40 I turned back to God (His doing, not mine) and came home to his Church. Is life better? Well, from my beginnings, anything would be better. So yes, my life can be said to be ‘good’ but I suffer just like everyone else does in different, less obvious ways. The prayer ‘Hail, Holy Queen’ has the words ‘mourning and weeping in this valley/vale of tears’. Life can be filled with disappointment and suffering, but it happens to all people.

Sometimes God breaks our hearts in order to empty them and allow Him room to come in,

A relationship with God is not transactional. He gave you life, air, a brain, etc. What you make of it is your business. Maybe he is calling you to be single in life.

I know you’re hurting, but blaming God is not the way to go.

I will pray for you.

 

[shainski]

interesting on many counts.

You are not only mad at God, but your college and government - and anyone else within shouting distance.

God doesn’t give us near-perfect mates. He gives us free will. And he also gives our near-perfect mates free will as well.

From there, it is up to us.

And God doesn’t give us things because of how we act - or on our faith. It seems that you expect that your not-so-reverent friends have as much or more than you without putting in the same effort.

I suspect that there are a huge number of people in the world that would look at all that you do have and would trade places in a minute (and maybe some that are even more reverent than you).

I’m sure it is very painful to get over rejection. It may take months or years. God can help you get over your pain - but he won’t override the free-will he gave this near-perfect woman. Would you have really been better off if you had never met her? Would you really be better off if God somehow forced her to be with you?

Maybe having been with her all this time has changed you and taught you something. Maybe it has made you a near-perfect person for someone you haven’t yet met.

 

[shainski]

interesting on many counts.

You are not only mad at God, but your college and government - and anyone else within shouting distance.

God doesn’t give us near-perfect mates. He gives us free will. And he also gives our near-perfect mates free will as well.

From there, it is up to us.

And God doesn’t give us things because of how we act - or on our faith. It seems that you expect that your not-so-reverent friends have as much or more than you without putting in the same effort.

I suspect that there are a huge number of people in the world that would look at all that you do have and would trade places in a minute (and maybe some that are even more reverent than you).

I’m sure it is very painful to get over rejection. It may take months or years. God can help you get over your pain - but he won’t override the free-will he gave this near-perfect woman. Would you have really been better off if you had never met her? Would you really be better off if God somehow forced her to be with you?

Maybe having been with her all this time has changed you and taught you something. Maybe it has made you a near-perfect person for someone you haven’t yet met.

 

[manualman]

Why follow church teaching when the likelihood of success or failure is the same??

Your logic is excellent, but your assumptions are faulty. One SHOULD expect that people who believe in and try to follow divinely revealed moral would have better actual outcomes than those who reject or defy divinely revealed principles.

I realize you’re a protestant, so you probably think catholic moral teachings against contraception are simply something weirdly catholic, but that would just be ignorance. Christianity as a whole ALWAYS preached that contraception is a grave sin until about 100 years ago or so when protestants began rationalizing it in doctrine for the first time. To this day, catholics who believe in and live by church teaching on human sexuality have an almost ZERO percent divorce rate, while catholics who defy God on the matter have divorce rates almost identical to the culture at large.

In short, your logic was correct, but your conclusion was wrong because you proceeded from faulty assumptions. Solution? Get poped and marry a good catholic girl! (Kidding in that life isn’t THAT simple, but it’s sure a good start!).

 

[CaliLobo]

The Bucket:

And here’s the problem my friend. You know what you’re saying? If God gave me what I wanted, I’d be happy. I’m not happy because I don’t have the stuff/people/whatever that I want. Ergo, God sucks.

Brutal irony here. You’re calling out Joel Osteen for not being a true Christian because he fails to recognize that suffering is part and parcel of the Christian life… and yet you yourself are saying that you refuse to serve because you’re suffering! See what emotions do to us?! …

This just in: People sin. And I’m pretty sure that it’s always been that way. How is it the Church’s fault that people choose themselves over what God wants for them? …

No. I did those things. No one else but me…

That right there is the same mindset I had. If God won’t magically take away my anxiety, my fears, my worries, He doesn’t care. He’s not listening to my prayers. That is the biggest crock of all time. Could it be that He actually knew better? Could it be that I was the one holding out? I’m going with yes on that.

EasterJoy:

You don’t think of God as God, then, because your god is an equal that you can walk out on if you don’t approve of how he does things, not the Creator of the Universe without whom you would have never seen the light, drawn a breath, or thought a thought. You don’t serve your god; your god is there to serve you, and you worship him not because justice demands it but because it pleases you to do so. If you speak the truth about your god, and aren’t just talking angry nonsense, then you are headed exactly where your god was inevitably going to lead you.

That line of thinking is its own punishment, because there is no happiness, apart from God. The first creature to take on that line of thought forced God to create a special place to live out the full consequences of taking on that attitude permanently. I think you know where I mean. That is not a threat, but it is warning about the natural consequences of your bitterness and rejection of all that could do you good and give you life.

I’m tired of suffering. I’m tired of waiting. I’d rather forget God and do things my way if it brings me more happiness. Some people fall away from God and church and are happier for it…

 

[CaliLobo]

1.I don’t think this relationship was meant to be. The only way I can see this having messed up a relationship that would otherwise have flourished is that you revealed too much information prematurely. More likely is that she’s not that perfect or that your relationship (in her opinion) wasn’t that amazing. Just one thing will not make somebody leave an amazing relationship. There’s usually a straw that breaks the camel’s back, but it’s not the first one.

If you have the guts for it (and if there’s no restraining order), you might want want to ask her, what’s wrong with me as a boyfriend? And then stand back, because you’re about to learn A LOT about yourself that you didn’t know before.

They all say that they can’t p(name removed by moderator)oint what’s wrong with me. Which I learned translates to, I’m a decent person but can’t create attraction. Maybe I’m not that good after all.

1. Why do you keep saying that you want God to give you a girlfriend (rather than a wife)? That’s a weird goal for a Christian guy your age (or even just a guy your age) to have.

First things first, you gotta meet a woman, create attraction, and date for a while before she’s your wife…

1. There aren’t a lot of secrets that you can keep from a wife long-term.

We’ll see…

1. Your self-improvement activities sound very good. I would add therapy, as well, because you need a third party to tell you how you look to others.

Healthcare is too expensive. Talking to friends, running, swimming, and playing music are my therapy.

1. This may be very unfair to you, or you may just be temporarily in a bad place, but a number of your posts have had a strong odor of immaturity, selfishness, anger, and/or entitlement. You need to get that smell off of you before you’re going to be able to find a good woman. Just calling yourself “agnostic” is not going to make you a more enticing prospect.

I accept that I’m not entitled to anything and God owes me nothing. It doesn’t mean I have to believe that he cares. It doesn’t mean I need to worship him.

1. If you get some random woman (or multiple women) pregnant while you’re doing your agnostic thing, what then? Either she has an abortion or she keeps the baby, and then 1) you get married to somebody you didn’t plan to get married to or 2) you pay child support for the next 18 years.

Condoms, mate. Condoms…

1. Your discussion of divorce is a weird red herring, given that what’s eating at you is dating trouble. Talking about divorce when you can’t even find or keep a girlfriend sounds lame.

Well, in this fallen world, what can I expect???

1. You sound tired of standard Evangelical Christianity. I was the same myself when I started grad school. It’s OK–move on. Go to some liturgical Protestant churches, go to some Catholic churches, go to an Orthodox church, read Bonhoeffer’s Cost of Discipleship, read C.S. Lewis’s The Four Loves (if you haven’t already), develop your mind as a Christian.

Haven’t tried Orthodox. Have tried liturgical Protestant. I’ll be Catholic as long as they accept that I’m pro-choice and support contraception and gay rights…

 

[Xantippe]

“Condoms, mate. Condoms…”

The failure rate on condoms for typical users is 15% a year.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods

That means that in well under 10 years of carefree bachelor living of the sort you envision, there is a near certainty that the condom user will experience an unplanned pregnancy. If the mother keeps her baby, that’s 18 years of child support payments for you for a kid that may well hate your guts, for one night of fun. Woohoo! And if you’re more lucky or fertile than average (or if your carefree bachelor living goes on very long), it could be more than one.

 

[CaliLobo]

I get it. You’re angry.

What “benefit” from Bible study? Just curious…sounds like you’ve been heading for the doors for a while.

Taking yourself hostage again?

Do you assess everything by your feelings?
…
Here’s a novel approach: Find a good Catholic woman that loves you. Sounds like you haven’t tried that yet. It couldn’t be worse than what you’ve already experienced.

Why even concern yourself with what other people do, in a church that you don’t even like? It’s not a competition, be your best self.

Yeah…Well, modernism ain’t what it used to be…and you rightly point out that there’s more involved. But again, you’re here at a Catholic website dismissing what a Protestant church teaches. How does that apply here, except to fuel your anger?

You don’t even understand the Catholic teachings on Chastity. Here is a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding the teaching on Chastity. LINK

It only proves that they are human, and flawed. The Church is not a place for perfect people, it is a hospital for those that are sick and disabled by sin. It is a place for healing.

Do you also argue that because there is still disease, that no medical treatment should be given?
…
You probably saved yourself from a lot of misery by practicing chastity and sober living when you did. I don’t think you will find satisfaction in the long-run in heading into a sinful and licentious lifestyle. Don’t get pulled into the “coulda, woulda, shoulda” business. Look ahead.
…
You’re angry. You blame the Church. You blame God.

You think the Church should change to fit your ideology and beliefs, yet you have no real understanding of what the Church even teaches.

You throw out challenge after challenge, and yet you refuse to engage in anything like debate or discussion over it. And you don’t seem to respond at all when others here try to address your questions, accusations, and concerns.

You have no faith, so you don’t understand things of faith.

I pray that God gives you the grace and the faith to follow Him, and cast off all these things that cause you pain, grief, and anger.

In previous posts, I’ve given you Biblical support for my positions. I’ve provided an adequate challenge to Vatican interpretation (there is no Bible verse explicitly against abortion, for example), and an adequate challenge to the validity of the authority of the Magisterium (Jesus is the Rock), and an adequate challenge to the importance of Apostolic Succession (Jesus is the High Priest forever). I’ve shown you how Protestant churches run circles around the CC when it comes to teaching, preaching, missions, and Bible reading. I’ve shown you mathematical figures on how Catholics are leaving in droves, in favor of Protestantism or nothing. This is true even in Latin culture (read Time magazine on the Latino Reformation).

At least admit that my challenges have some merit, even if you completely disagree.

So no, I’m not taking myself hostage, since as a former Protestant my view of the Bible is no better or worse than that of the Vatican.

I understand Biblical teachings on chastity just fine, and I regret practicing them because I feel it’s gotten me nowhere better than those that lived lives of sin, especially in the area of dating.

It’s not that I went down the right path expecting something in return. It’s just that I don’t want to suffer anymore, and I’m no longer seeing the relevance and validity of church teachings about dating, sex, and marriage. I’d rather live a life of sin if it means more happiness.

But I’m still open to finding a good Catholic woman that loves me, as long as she understands it will take nothing short of a miracle to agree with the Vatican on abortion, gay rights, and contraception…

underacloud:

As discussed, marriages by Church going Catholics, especially those who practise NFP (an indicator that they take their faith very seriously) are much less likely to end in divorce. This fact seems to hold true across religious practise in general; people who actively participate in their religion, rather than just nominate as such, have much lower divorce rates.

From reading the tragic threads on CAF, I don’t see evidence of that…

Cat:

Don’t do things merely to attract a woman. Do things because you like like doing them, and don’t worry about what others think. Be real. Even if that means being “socially awkward”–believe it or not, women are attracted to men who are socially awkward if the man has virtues.

For example, classical piano hasn’t attracted me a single woman, so it’s time for a change. Classical music is beautiful but too esoteric for most. That is why I’ve told my guitar teacher I want to learn everything non-classical. Classical music can be too serious. I wanna show that I don’t take life too seriously.

I am taking dance lessons to show I am not uptight, and also that I don’t take life seriously. They also say woman subtly believe dance skills symbolize your performance in bed…

I’ve been (officially) single all of my life, except 19 days. (The official part of the relationship was 19 days, and I’ve had other non-official lady friends, but I can count them with two fingers, and I’m 32.)

I’ve wanted to be married since I was a kid. I’m tired of being single and I want to change it. Is it so wrong to feel that way??

Everything I’ve done is failing. I’m open to new ideas. I’m willing to make almost any change, do whatever it takes. I’m even willing to join the armed forces; women like military men right??

 

[Xantippe]

And yet you’re not willing to do therapy.

 

[CaliLobo]

And yet you’re not willing to do therapy.

I don’t think psychotherapy works that well. I once went to a psychotherapist who would just listen to me rant and say, “What do you think of that?” Well dude, I want a new way of thinking, that’s why I came here, eh?

Counseling? I’m too clever and can out-analyze their recommendations and analysis. I have a few smart friends that are willing to listen to my rants, and also my mom, so they are good enough.

The Protestant church? I can predict what church members will say. “Pray and trust God, let go and let God, it wasn’t God’s will that this happen; surrender to God’s will…” And they’ll throw in an outlandish testimony that I can’t relate to. I’m sick of the Christianese, the platitudes…

Not sure Catholic and Orthodox church members can say too much different; they’ll lecture me on discerning vocations, maybe they’ll recommend Adoration and asking a few saints to pray for me. But I’ve tried that already…

I’ve already prayed to God, asked Raphael to pray for me, and prayed during Adoration. God knows loud and clear I want to be married.