Does the Holy Father mean that Our Lady has defects?

[Nita]

While reading the text of the catechesis of the Holy Father 11 September 2013:

news.va/en/news/the-church-is-a-mother

I found myself rather disturbed by the implication of two statements of the first paragraph.

First premise (a wholly Catholic statement, in my view):

Quote:
The Church and the Virgin Mary are mothers, both of them; what is said of the Church can be said also of Our Lady and what is said of Our Lady can also be said of the Church!

In the **first quote **he is speaking of the Church as Christ’s Mystical Body – which is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. In its teachings and sacraments there is no flaw, no error.

In the second quote he is speaking of the humans who are members of the Catholic Church. We are not without flaw/sin.

From the CCC (vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM) :
827 "Christ, ‘holy, innocent, and undefiled,’ knew nothing of sin, but came only to expiate the sins of the people. the Church, however, clasping sinners to her bosom, at once holy and always in need of purification, follows constantly the path of penance and renewal."299 All members of the Church, including her ministers, must acknowledge that they are sinners.300 In everyone, the weeds of sin will still be mixed with the good wheat of the Gospel until the end of time.301 Hence the Church gathers sinners already caught up in Christ’s salvation but still on the way to holiness:

The Church is therefore holy, though having sinners in her midst, because she herself has no other life but the life of grace. If they live her life, her members are sanctified; if they move away from her life, they fall into sins and disorders that prevent the radiation of her sanctity. This is why she suffers and does penance for those offenses, of which she has the power to free her children through the blood of Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
​

 

[Dorothy]

The question is not so much as to was she a virgin but was she sinless but even on the virginity issue this is questionable from these verses:
Here is Psalm 69:4-9, “Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, what I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, and my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonoured through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers and an alien to my mother’s sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, and the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me.”

Matthew 12:46-47, "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”

Matthew 13:55 - “Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”

After all she was only 16 when the Lord visited her.

and what about : Matthew 1:24-25 - “And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.”

Just asking- Shalom

catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-case-for-mary%E2%80%99s-perpetual-virginity

These questions have been asked many times on Catholic forums. The above site can help.

 

[fred_conty]

While reading the text of the catechesis of the Holy Father 11 September 2013:

news.va/en/news/the-church-is-a-mother

I found myself rather disturbed by the implication of two statements of the first paragraph.

First premise (a wholly Catholic statement, in my view):

Second premise:

The conclusion would appear to be that the Holy Father is saying that Our Lady, like the Church, has defects. Would this not be a denial of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (and others)?

I can’t imagine the Holy Father actually intends to say this, but logic would suggest otherwise.

Can anyone suggest a benign explanation, that does not contradict the teaching of the Church?

It seems to me if the pope had meant sin he would have said sin.
But he said defaults. Mothers have defaults…worry, worry, worry.

Just a thought.

 

[Freekevio]

catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-case-for-mary%E2%80%99s-perpetual-virginity

These questions have been asked many times on Catholic forums. The above site can help.

Thank you for the link Dear Sister Dorothy.

I recognise that Brother can mean more than sibling but when we look at the context of each verse and in conjunction with the OT references, it is clear to me that Jesus did indeed have siblings, In fact his Brother James only called him Lord after the resurrection.

No human is perfect is throughout Holy Scripture.
Shalom

 

[Dorothy]

Thank you for the link Dear Sister Dorothy.

I recognise that Brother can mean more than sibling but when we look at the context of each verse and in conjunction with the OT references, it is clear to me that Jesus did indeed have siblings, In fact his Brother James only called him Lord after the resurrection.

No human is perfect is throughout Holy Scripture.
Shalom

I believe you mean well, and I am aware that I have no power to change your mind.

I believe that Mary was redeemed in advance (she called the Lord savior). She is like a clear pane of glass without any smudges on it that allows the pure and perfect Light of the Holy Trinity shine through. She is nothing by herself, but everything with the Lord, and she knows that!

I would hope that you would not attempt to dissuade Catholics from their beliefs.

However, you can pursue questions about our faith, if you so desire, in another section of the forum. (this thread is being de-railed from the original post.)