Does the human embryo have a soul?

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So conceiving that person via IVF is doing God’s will – thus it cannot be evil, and for sure it cannot be intrinsic evil!
Not really, no. Rather, now that the evil act is done, Satan doesn’t get to win - God is going to bring good out of it, by giving the person a soul and a mission in life - thus stealing Satan’s victory away from him. Satan might get to keep the parents (if they don’t repent of their actions) but God is claiming the child for Himself. 🙂
 
But you’re trying to disprove metaphysics with science. You can’t do that,
Because your metaphysics makes a prediction which is empirically verifiable.

Again: if you maintain that (1) God has to intervene at conception for it to succeed and (2) God does not like conception in vitro, how do you explain that conception in vitro succeeds?
 
Does God give every human being a soul, and if so, when?
Since life begins when two different parts of a human being, the sperm and egg, unite together to form a new and living organism (zygote), each person in the world therefore became a human individual as a one-celled human zygote; which is to say that each person began life as a living human being in the zygote stage and remains a human being whether or not that person goes to be with the Lord in either the zygote, embryo, fetus, child, adolescent, or adult stages of life.

Therefore, since the life of the individual begins at conception, which means “origin or beginning” (TheFreeDictionary), the human soul must also exist at the beginning. The idea that a human being has no soul at conception is a contradiction, since the soul is the “life principle” of the human body.

King David writes in Psalm 138:13-16 that his development as a person began in his mother’s womb: “For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast protected me from my mother’s womb. I will praise thee, for thou art fearfully magnified: wonderful are thy works, and my soul knoweth right well. My bone is not hidden from thee, which thou hast made in secret: and my substance in the lower parts of the earth. Thy eyes did see my imperfect being, and in thy book all shall be written: days shall be formed, and no one in them.”

And in the New Testament, Luke 1:36 regards John the Baptist as a “son” right at the moment of conception: “And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age.”
 
Everything that lives has a soul (either finite like plants and animals or in the case of humans, immortal, rational & spiritual.
So an animal has a different soul than a human. But hang on, we’re animals by definition. A little more intelligent than our simian cousins perhaps, but animals nevertheless.

So during the process of evolution, is it possible to say that the parent of a child was not human but the child was? That the mother had a finite soul and her offspring an immortal one? Was there a day when God decided we were all going to be human from that point on?
 
So an animal has a different soul than a human. But hang on, we’re animals by definition. A little more intelligent than our simian cousins perhaps, but animals nevertheless.
We are a different kind of animal because we have an immortal soul. We aren’t just “a bit more evolved.” No matter how evolved the other animals become, they will never have immortal souls.
So during the process of evolution, is it possible to say that the parent of a child was not human but the child was?
For those who believe in evolution, that’s what they would have to believe, yes. I am told that this is physically impossible, however.
That the mother had a finite soul and her offspring an immortal one? Was there a day when God decided we were all going to be human from that point on?
What I believe is that God created each being according to its kind, and human beings in His own image and likeness. Possibly two million years ago, or even longer ago than that - but I don’t think a non-human gave birth to a human being at any time along the continuum of evolution.

Nor do I think that non-cattle gave birth to cattle, or that non-wolves gave birth to wolves, etc. No matter how long one imagines it took to happen. I think God created everything according to its kind, on purpose. The chances of it happening by accident are just way too small, even given long periods of time in which for it to happen.

I do believe in micro-evolution, in which species differentiate into various breeds, and in which human beings differentiate into different races according to where they live and the circumstances in which they find themselves.
 
What about human embryos that are cloned inside or outside the womb by scientists?
Is God bound to give souls to the human creations of scientists? Cloned, or genetically modified into some sort of chimera, or other subhuman?

God’s peace

micah
I have wondered about that. If we ever get to the statge of cloned humans would God give them a soul?
 
So an animal has a different soul than a human. But hang on, we’re animals by definition. A little more intelligent than our simian cousins perhaps, but animals nevertheless.

So during the process of evolution, is it possible to say that the parent of a child was not human but the child was? That the mother had a finite soul and her offspring an immortal one? Was there a day when God decided we were all going to be human from that point on?
Actually yes, quite possibly. I think that’s probably the most likely explanation if you feel there’s a good reason to believe in God.

[The term generally used for humans by Thomistic philosophers today at least is “rational anaimal” from my understanding of it.]

For that matter, a human’s soul is immortal because God decides to keep it that way after death.

Having a rational soul doesn’t make us immortal. God deciding not to destroy our rational souls makes us immortal.

This is the whole “Are their animals in heaven?” thing. It’s a Christian problem more than a philosophical one, but the idea is that human beings are the only creatures with immortal souls so only humans are in Heaven.

This might be true, but I don’t think it tells the full story.

The human soul is only immortal because God decided not to destroy it; we were promised that our souls would be immortal. God made no such promise about the animals. but if He wants to save animals too that’s His decision.
 
I have wondered about that. If we ever get to the statge of cloned humans would God give them a soul?
There is a big debate on this but the answer is emphatically YES, absolutely.

All living things have souls. Embryos are alive. Embryos are undeveloped human bodies. A cloned human embryo would be a living clone human. Therefore a living cloone human has a soul.

We don’t know why God allows us to create life in immoral ways, like IVF or, potentially, cloning. All we know is that He set up biological “rules” for how humans are created and even if these rules are manipulated in unscrupulous ways He hasn’t seen fit to break them yet.

Cloning creates a biological human-a manipulation of God’s “rules”, yes, but a manipulation that produced the end result desired. Since the clone would be, in this theoretical sense, alive, he or she would have a human, rational, soul.

jmcrae: I think, although our beliefs about souls are both allowed to be believed by the Church, my beliefs make more sense philosophically unless I’m misunderstanding Aquinas.

Typical problem of evil, and really the subject of yet another problem of evil thread.
 
jmcrae: I think, although our beliefs about souls are both allowed to be believed by the Church, my beliefs make more sense philosophically unless I’m misunderstanding Aquinas.
As you say, both are permitted. 🙂
 
We are a different kind of animal because we have an immortal soul. We aren’t just “a bit more evolved.” No matter how evolved the other animals become, they will never have immortal souls.
We’re heading in a circle: ‘We have souls because we are human and we are human because we have been given a soul’.
For those who believe in evolution, that’s what they would have to believe (non-human mother, human child), yes. I am told that this is physically impossible, however.
True. The offspring of a mother is always the same species as the mother.
What I believe is that God created each being according to its kind, and human beings in His own image and likeness. Possibly two million years ago, or even longer ago than that - but I don’t think a non-human gave birth to a human being at any time along the continuum of evolution.
Then it’s not evolution you’re talking about. It is one way that humans could get a soul – if we were created us in one instance. But we know that that didn’t happen. So for Catholics who do understand evolution I’m not sure how they reconcile this problem.
 
Then it’s not evolution you’re talking about. It is one way that humans could get a soul – if we were created us in one instance. But we know that that didn’t happen. So for Catholics who do understand evolution I’m not sure how they reconcile this problem.
I don’t either - as a matter of fact, this is exactly the reason that I stopped believing in evolution.

If original life were single-celled organisms, and we know that single celled organisms can only give birth to other single-celled organisms, then we would not be here, regardless of how gradually those single-celled organisms gave birth to each other, or how many millions of years they took to do it.
 
I don’t either - as a matter of fact, this is exactly the reason that I stopped believing in evolution.
So rather than try to solve the problem about how souls can evolve, you gave up on evolution itself.
If original life were single-celled organisms, and we know that single celled organisms can only give birth to other single-celled organisms…
You do know that you started out as a single cell organism? They either split into two, like an amoeba, or divide into a multi cell organism. Like you.

The evolution of multicellularity is not an irrecoverable event from an unimaginably distant past; it is something we can observe, manipulate, and test in the lab today. [The evolution of multicellularity is not an irrecoverable event from an unimaginably distant past;](The evolution of multicellularity is not an irrecoverable event from an unimaginably distant past;)
 
Would the same be said for embryos with anencephaly? They are technically alive and may have enough of a nervous system for autonomic functioning but not enough of a brain to ever achieve consciousness.
The brain has no part in it, really. It’s just another body part, like a hand or a foot, though with very special functions. If the embryo is alive then it has a soul by definition. 🙂
 
I would recommend this catholic website for any further questions relating to the beginning of life and ensoulment:

**These claims are reflective of the traditional teaching recently restated, for example, in the Instruction from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Donum Vitae, that the “human being is to be respected and treated as a person from the moment of conception and therefore from that same moment his rights as a person must be recognized” (I, 1).

The Instruction is careful to note that the Church has not taken a philosophical position on the time of ensoulment. However, “From the moment of conception, the life of every human being is to be respected in an absolute way—” (Donum Vitae, Introduction).

While the hierarchy of the Catholic Church has left open the resolution of the actual time of ensoulment, it has in fact insisted that the prudent response would be to recognize that as a practical matter ensoulment is coincident with fertilization. This position, combined with the traditional respect-for-life position of the Church, is what propels its opposition to embryonic stem-cell research.**

americancatholic.org/newsletters/CU/ac0102.asp

God’s peace

micah
 
So rather than try to solve the problem about how souls can evolve, you gave up on evolution itself.
You make it sound like I didn’t give it a good shot. I did. I wanted evolution to be true, because I wanted people to perceive me as intelligent and scientifically-minded. The evidence simply never held up.
You do know that you started out as a single cell organism? They either split into two, like an amoeba, or divide into a multi cell organism. Like you.
I started off as a human cell, which when it divided, grew into me.

However, a paramecium (for example) is never going to give birth to a human being (for example), no matter how many millions of years we wait for that to happen - it will always, only, ever give birth to other paramecium - creatures of its own species.

The single-celled organisms that populated our planet billions of years ago did the same thing when they reproduced. None of them ever gave birth to species not of their own kind - because that’s physically impossible. Which means that inter-species evolution could not have happened.
 
I wanted evolution to be true, because I wanted people to perceive me as intelligent and scientifically-minded.
I’m really not sure that’s a good basis for trying to undertand something. You shouldn’t want something to be true - it will cloud your judgement. It either is or it isn’t.
 
I’m really not sure that’s a good basis for trying to undertand something. You shouldn’t want something to be true - it will cloud your judgement. It either is or it isn’t.
And as it turns out, it isn’t - as far as I can tell. 🙂

Other people are free to differ; I wasted a good part of my youth on the question.
 
Continuing the discussion of whether ‘human’ embryos have a soul. I thought this discussion from the same Catholic website would be helpful in determining whether a cloned ‘human’ embryo would have an soul. (It also speaks of stem-cell research in the same manner):

**Some, while respecting this teaching of the Church, make further ethical observations about the early embryo. First, fertilization is a process that takes about 24 hours to complete and therefore is not a specific moment one can point to. As a side note, should a human be cloned, there would be no fertilization at all because the nucleus of one cell is placed into another cell that has its nucleus removed and is stimulated to begin cell division. The life of that individual would not begin at fertilization.

Second, the whole development of an embryo into a fetus and eventually into a child is a process, not a series of sharply defined steps. This is important because it is really difficult to tell precisely where a fetus is in the process of development. One knows where the fetus is after the stage has been entered into. It is not easy to make precise developmental statements and then moral judgments made in relation to them.

But more specifically, many ethicists focus on the fact that up until about a week or so into the pregnancy, the fertilized egg has the capacity to divide and become identical twins. In some cases it has been observed that such divided eggs blend back together into one blastocyst (what the fertilized egg is called at around 4-5 days of development).

And if the egg is fertilized in vitro, one cell can be removed (to have its genetic structure analyzed) and the developmental process is not harmed. In fact, all the cells of the blastocyst can be separated and each has the capacity to become a whole human being. This point is clearly important biologically: These cells can become either a whole organism or be coaxed into becoming any specialized cell in the body.

But this is important philosophically also. Because the cells of the blastocyst can be divided so that each part can become a whole, the blastocyst lacks true individuality—the capacity not to be able to be divided.

If one were to divide me, you would wind up with two halves. If one divides the cells of the blastocyst, one obtains several cells all capable of becoming individuals. The reason why this is philosophically important is that if the organism is not first an individual, it is difficult to understand how it could be a person. Being an individual organism is a first necessary, though certainly not sufficient, stage for being a person.

On the basis of the argument that the blastocyst is not yet an individual, some would argue that while the blastocyst is a living organism, possessing the human genetic code, such an organism is indeed valuable, but its value is not yet that accorded to a person.

Therefore some would conclude that killing the human blastocyst is not murder because there is as yet no personal subject to experience that wrong. Such a killing is a disvalue, to be sure, but a disvalue that might be offset by other positive values, such as health. The conclusion that some would draw, then, is that at least a case can be made for the use of human embryos in stem-cell research. **

americancatholic.org/newsletters/CU/ac0102.asp

So, frankly it is my opinion, that artificial creation of ‘human embryos’ would not be granted human souls by our Creator. **“Thou shall not tempt the LORD thy God”. **Essentially, science would be doing that. Science could take the human DNA from corpses, skin, or where ever, or they could combine human DNA with animals, or they could essentially create a Frankenstein, and thereby tempt our holy God into giving their distorted creations a soul.

God’s peace

micah
 
Some, while respecting this teaching of the Church, make further ethical observations about the early embryo. First, fertilization is a process that takes about 24 hours to complete and therefore is not a specific moment one can point to. As a side note, should a human be cloned, there would be no fertilization at all because the nucleus of one cell is placed into another cell that has its nucleus removed and is stimulated to begin cell division. The life of that individual would not begin at fertilization.
I think that’s a little telling that one of the problems of this discussion is that we, as humans, like to break down continuous processes into discrete processes so that we can more easily process each discrete chunk. While that metaphor allows us to work with such processes as you are pointing out that metaphor does diverge from what is actually happening.

As for cloning, the concerns that some voice from the thought of transnuclear cloning remind me of some of the same concerns that came up with the first artificial inseminated child in 1978. There were questions as to whether such an individual would have a soul. I don’t think those questions come up now days. I think the bigger concern I’d have about cloned individuals arises from the telomere shortening of the individual from which the nucleus was transferred and the potential (yet speculative) impacts that could have on one’s health. The idea of some one being born with 20+ years shaved off of their life just isn’t comforting.
 
So, frankly it is my opinion, that artificial creation of ‘human embryos’ would not be granted human souls by our Creator.
Okay, I’m going to put this so bluntly it’s going to seem rude, so I want to make it clear now that I’m not intending to be, but:

Philosophically, that cloned humans have human souls is not an opinion. It is a fact.

If we accept the same metaphysics that the Church uses for literally every other discussion about human life then coming to the conclusion that a clone has a human soul is inescapable.
 
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