Does the human embryo have a soul?

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Okay. Now explain why this no longer happens today. If evolution happened in the past, wouldn’t it continue to be happening today?

And yet, we don’t see it happening - all we see is (8A) meeting (6A+2B), and generating more 8A offspring, or maybe a couple with one or two “B”, but certainly never getting up to (8*B) in however many generations - flies today are still flies, even though they’ve been “evolving” 7300 times faster than human beings since the time of Adam. :confused: 🤷
So when exactly was the time of Adam?
 
So when exactly was the time of Adam?
I have no idea. I know from my History of Ceramics classes that fire began to be used to make pots about 10,000 years ago, and that this marks the beginning of communal human society, but human beings have been around longer than that, since they migrated from warmer climates before discovering the uses of fire, and before making pots or cooking with them.

Adam and Eve were the first human beings on earth. All human beings are descended from that one couple. The Scriptures show that Adam was tilling the fields and that they were killing animals for food and clothing even within that first generation - so, perhaps Adam and Eve and the first children of the human race lived a little more than 10,000 years ago. Or maybe it took 2 million years to get from the hunting and gathering to cooking with fire - I don’t know. 🙂
 
We need to stand up for the sanctity of human life from conception, we need to stand up for the sanctitiy and holiness of our Creator. We need to stand up for the truth. We do not represent the truth by assuming that ensoulment begins at conception. We need to represent our faith, but not at the cost of being untruthful.

shalom

micah
All we can do is assume since it is the only logical reference point. The Church is clear. When I say assume I mean that the church cannot know when a soul is actually imparted into a being but scientific observation has shown us that conception is when a new life is created. Therefore, the Church teaches that human life must be treated as such from conception.

This is regardless of how conception occurred.

This is the teaching of the Church and if you disagree and continue to state that clones would not be endowed with souls you are simply wrong.

This creates a mentality that cloning is actually acceptable - because the end result is not human/does not have a soul.
 
Well I believe in a style of determinism which is somewhat relatively independent yet not deterministic.) …anyway… so the moment of conception would be my answer. Once the pen is dipped into the ink, all that’s left is the writing. Unity has happened. The societal self is engaged by need from society for survival just like everyone, the known self can do nothing but exist in its way, know more and is the how, in how the story can be. The actual self or soul is the only left property of the three for explaining.

So we have three in the likeness, the actual self(soul) the known self and the societal self.

The actual self soul would seem to be the issue.

Because we can say, oh I better get the oil changed on my car, oh I’m hungry and so on without the instinctive…( which is another very interesting thing) …we can have whats called thoughts which stem out of an endowment of infinity. These thoughts however are only translations upon experience and represent the endowment “in action”

The actual self soul would be unique, we know this as brothers and sisters in the same family can be almost like different species…just highlighting.

the actual self soul wouldn’t be something which can be reasoned out, and the endowment of infinity is not something reasoned out for each thought, it is a given requisite which allows man to grasp what infinity is…we could not even explain the finite world without this attribute…

So the endowment of the soul would in my thinking have nothing to do with the development of the baby in the womb and be a reality expressing the unity at conception…it is in keeping with an unfolding in all that is as well I think.
 
All we can do is assume since it is the only logical reference point. The Church is clear. When I say assume I mean that the church cannot know when a soul is actually imparted into a being but scientific observation has shown us that conception is when a new life is created. Therefore, the Church teaches that human life must be treated as such from conception.

This is regardless of how conception occurred.

This is the teaching of the Church and if you disagree and continue to state that clones would not be endowed with souls you are simply wrong.

This creates a mentality that cloning is actually acceptable - because the end result is not human/does not have a soul.
One does not protect the sanctity of life as God created it, nor does one protect the sanctity of the Creator by allowing cloning and the genetic modification of the life forms that God has created by assuming clones have human souls. Allowing science to interfere with God’s creation is a travesty against all that is sacred.

It is more than logical to ban all cloning and genetic modification of God’s creation. Thus, securing the sanctity of all life that God has created, and protecting the sanctity and sovereignty of God our Creator.

Giving science permission to distort and interfere with God’s creation in my opinion is a blasphemy against God and is against the commandment, “Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.”

We disagree. You say protect the human clone by saying it has a human soul. I say protect the sanctity of life as God has created it, and protect the sanctity and sovereignty of God by banning all cloning, and genetic modification of God’s created life forms.

To Him be the glory now and forever

micah
 
I think you might be confusing the soul with the mind. The soul is what causes us to be alive. The mind is what allows us to perceive that we are alive. They are two different things. A person can lose consciousness, but remain alive - most of us do this every night when we go to bed. 😉

We notice that the person is alive from the moment of conception - but it’s also true that we don’t notice evidence of a thinking mind until about 4-5 months after conception.
I’ve no idea how the inane notion of “soul as an animating principle” snuck into religious lore. It implies that all bacteria and viruses have souls. Those who believe this kind of stuff should not be using mouthwash or Lysol with a clear conscience.

This also implies that the sperm and egg cells of all eukaryotic species each have a soul of their own. What happens to the leftover soul at fertilization?

If you want to believe stuff like that and find a way to squeeze it into your limited universe-view, be my guest. I don’t care to bother with it.

I understand your confusion. It is derived from religious interpretations of the nature of soul that were invented long before the basic principles of physics, by people who thought that the universe revolved around the earth, and who somehow imagined that humans were a pinnacle of Creation.

Upon folding basic physics into the reality of existence I have devised an entirely different set of concepts. Examples:

The “soul” is a non-created physical entity that manifests only one inherent force. In my formal writings I refer to it as beon to distinguish this concept from conventional confusions about the nature of “soul,” I use the common term “soul” only to kind of facilitate communication,. and enclose the term in quotes by way of indicating my alternative treatment.

Unlike Descartes, I do not equate “soul” or beon with “mind.” Mind is another confused term which means different things to different people. I regard beon as the entity responsible for consciousness and most creative thought. Brain is the machine that produces most of what passes in us for thought, but which is merely the retention and assembly of related items of information.

Brain is essential to consciousness, at the outset, but is not the carrier of consciousness. That’s beon’s job. What people generally refer to as “mind” is actually the result of brain and beon working together.
 
I would like to, but I was quoting from a Catholic website, which seemed to understand something of the particulars of which you are interested. Maybe the website would be able to direct you to the biology or scientific source you are interested in.
I’ve been looking around for an authoritative cite over the last couple of days but have failed to find one.

There is an important distinction that may be relevant here: the distinction between pluripotent and totipotent cells.

It is the totipotent cell that can produce the whole organism. But the totipotent cell is the zygote, the initial cell formed from the union of male and female gametes.

The blastosphere is made of pluripotent cells. And these cells do not produce a whole organism but various tissues, organs, etc.

Maybe a biologist on this forum can help us out with a clarification.
 
I’ve no idea how the inane notion of “soul as an animating principle” snuck into religious lore. It implies that all bacteria and viruses have souls.
They do. 🙂
Those who believe this kind of stuff should not be using mouthwash or Lysol with a clear conscience.
Bacteria don’t have rational or eternal souls - killing them is no different than blowing out a candle. Their soul goes to the same place that the flame of the candle goes to. They don’t suffer, and are not aware of ceasing to exist. 🙂
 
I would like to, but I was quoting from a Catholic website, which seemed to understand something of the particulars of which you are interested. Maybe the website would be able to direct you to the biology or scientific source you are interested in.
I think I found (maybe) what I was looking for: the totipotent cell which can produce a whole organism.

The first totipotent cell is the zygote. The zygote is a single cell formed through the union of male and female gametes.

Through cell division immediately subsequent to the formation of the zygote, a number of other totipotent cells are produced in a structure known as the morula.

The question is whether it is possible to remove one of these totipotent cells from the morula and produce a whole organism just from this removed totipotent cell.

Also does the removal of one of the totipotent cells destroy the ability of the remaining totipotent cells to produce a whole organism.

The totipotent cell is contrasted with the pluripotent cell. The latter cannot produce a whole organism but can produce a variety of types of tissue, organs, and other parts of the body.

Maybe a biologist on this forum can help us out here.
 
I’ve been looking around for an authoritative cite over the last couple of days but have failed to find one.

I’m not sure whether there may be confusion here about what these cells can do.
Well, you certainly have asked a good question. This is the closest citation that I can find regarding this subject, and I don’t know if it is stating what the original author has written.

**Thirdly, Norman Ford and others have argued that each of the cells contained in the pre-embryo are totipotent and each capable of forming identical human individuals.21 **

crvp.org/book/Series07/VII-18/chapter-4.htm

**Definition of Totipotent
Totipotent: Having unlimited capability.

A totipotent cell has the capacity to form an entire organism. Human development begins when a sperm fertilizes an egg and creates a single totipotent cell. In the first hours after fertilization, this cell divides into identical totipotent cells. Approximately four days after fertilization and after several cycles of cell division, these totipotent cells begin to specialize. **

So, it seems that within four days of fertilization the zygote, a cell of such has the capacity to form an entire organism.

medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=18261

I do not know if this answers your question. You found what I just found, confirmation?

God’s peace

micah
 
continuing…

1)There is no left over sperm or egg , soul is the outcome of the successful unity at conception forwarding the human. …The nature of the human happening , not an animal nature of the creative
  1. Man can show with knowledge that an aware conscious thought or consciousness in principal emerges firstly out of the unconscious realm.
  2. This above nature in the operations and explained association in the properties of this attribute, are in representation in the soul and also in this association, associate with the unconcious and conscious by common ground principal in associating properties.
  3. So the soul at very start re conception, is in a like format… as soul is in a like unconscious state…I call this state the place setting…the place setting is the endowment
  4. In life it is possible to reduce down in measure to simply the "like unconscious state of the soul by ill-will and so forth dis-avowing any measure leaving only the place setting of endowed potential…
So how does it interconnect with the mind…? it interconnects by the common ground language in how it operates.

so soul has an unconscious principal…when a very good person comes along it is more in its like conscious state and realizes itself toward the known self…

they are all systems and then system connected with the social…layers of unconscious>consciousness …on and on and on and on

so the conception achieves the endowment…being born is simply like going outside, that’s all…the place setting can now begin…but it was formed up in the conception…if not…then at what unifying moment did the soul decide to be a realism? with itself or known self …? can’t be…a soul cannot be reasoned out as I explained in last entry…just opinion thats all
 
continuing…

1)There is no left over sperm or egg , soul is the outcome of the successful unity at conception forwarding the human. …The nature of the human happening , not an animal nature of the creative
  1. Man can show with knowledge that an aware conscious thought or consciousness in principal emerges firstly out of the unconscious realm.
  2. This above nature in the operations and explained association in the properties of this attribute, are in representation in the soul and also in this association, associate with the unconcious and conscious by common ground principal in associating properties.
  3. So the soul at very start re conception, is in a like format… as soul is in a like unconscious state…I call this state the place setting…the place setting is the endowment
  4. In life it is possible to reduce down in measure to simply the "like unconscious state of the soul by ill-will and so forth dis-avowing any measure leaving only the place setting of endowed potential…
So how does it interconnect with the mind…? it interconnects by the common ground language in how it operates.

so soul has an unconscious principal…when a very good person comes along it is more in its like conscious state and realizes itself toward the known self…

they are all systems and then system connected with the social…layers of unconscious>consciousness …on and on and on and on

so the conception achieves the endowment…being born is simply like going outside, that’s all…the place setting can now begin…but it was formed up in the conception…if not…then at what unifying moment did the soul decide to be a realism? with itself or known self …? can’t be…a soul cannot be reasoned out as I explained in last entry…just opinion thats all
I think that the unifying moment of realism is not decided by the soul, the unifying moment of realism is decided by God when he imparts a soul to his human creation forming within the womb of the mother.

John the Bapist was about six months old when as an infant he lept for joy at the appearance of the Virgin Mary. His unifying moment of realism was certainly at this moment, if not before. The Virgin Mary, who is the mother of our Lord, and blessed is the fruit (karpos) of her womb.

parthenocarpy (pärth-n-kärp), from Greek parthenos virgin + karpos fruit]

The production of fruit without fertilization. Many varieties of the common fig produce fruit through parthenocarpy

thefreedictionary.com/parthenocarpy

God’s peace

micah
 
concluding for now…so heres the proposed model

soul…a potential > like the unconscious toward the like-conscious

bridging above like conscious soul …onto the unconscious mind that we know and talk about

bridging above unconscious onto conscious

bridging conscious onto known self

bridging known self onto social

bridging social back to known self

bridging above system in an always required translational back to the soul…back and forth attempting to find self…the actual self (soul, not the known self) which then goes on to our nature in guess what…always looking for ourselves…“out there” why…? so we know we are real and really have this infinite soul which was there right from the get go. This is simply opinion , thats all.
 
I think that the unifying moment of realism is not decided by the soul, the unifying moment of realism is decided by God when he imparts a soul to his human creation forming within the womb of the mother.

John the Bapist was about six months old when as an infant he lept for joy at the appearance of the Virgin Mary. His unifying moment of realism was certainly at this moment, if not before. The Virgin Mary, who is the mother of our Lord, and blessed is the fruit (karpos) of her womb.

parthenocarpy (pärth-n-kärp), from Greek parthenos virgin + karpos fruit]

The production of fruit without fertilization. Many varieties of the common fig produce fruit through parthenocarpy

thefreedictionary.com/parthenocarpy

God’s peace

micah
Ok thanks but I agree with you and you may have read hasty…the unifying moment can not be decided by the soul in my example…the soul is only the outcome of the unifying moment…a consequence of the happening…now however God does this I do not know but the idea is in keeping with your above I think…the unification in the human conception which includes this exact outcome by a God like mechanism, would not have been what I was trying to explain in the thinking.
 
Okay, I’m going to put this so bluntly it’s going to seem rude, so I want to make it clear now that I’m not intending to be, but:

Philosophically, that cloned humans have human souls is not an opinion. It is a fact.

If we accept the same metaphysics that the Church uses for literally every other discussion about human life then coming to the conclusion that a clone has a human soul is inescapable.
Works for me. One of the partial proofs of my theories involves cloning. I predict that it the intelligence and personality of cloned individuals were analyzed as independent variables, it will be found that the “personality,” a product of brain, would be identical across cloned subjects. (Assuming common cultural exposure, of course.)

However, the intelligences of cloned persons must vary. This will be difficult to evaluate if the intelligence is “average,” as with most identical twin pairs, because average people are similar in this respect. However, some instances will occur where one clone has an intellect either markedly superior or inferior to the other, demonstrating that intelligence is a property of “soul,” or of my preferred term, beon.
 
Continuing the discussion of whether ‘human’ embryos have a soul. I thought this discussion from the same Catholic website would be helpful in determining whether a cloned ‘human’ embryo would have an soul. (It also speaks of stem-cell research in the same manner):

**Some, while respecting this teaching of the Church, make further ethical observations about the early embryo. First, fertilization is a process that takes about 24 hours to complete and therefore is not a specific moment one can point to. As a side note, should a human be cloned, there would be no fertilization at all because the nucleus of one cell is placed into another cell that has its nucleus removed and is stimulated to begin cell division. The life of that individual would not begin at fertilization. **

Second, the whole development of an embryo into a fetus and eventually into a child is a process, not a series of sharply defined steps. This is important because it is really difficult to tell precisely where a fetus is in the process of development. One knows where the fetus is after the stage has been entered into. It is not easy to make precise developmental statements and then moral judgments made in relation to them.

But more specifically, many ethicists focus on the fact that up until about a week or so into the pregnancy, the fertilized egg has the capacity to divide and become identical twins. In some cases it has been observed that such divided eggs blend back together into one blastocyst (what the fertilized egg is called at around 4-5 days of development).

And if the egg is fertilized in vitro, one cell can be removed (to have its genetic structure analyzed) and the developmental process is not harmed. In fact, all the cells of the blastocyst can be separated and each has the capacity to become a whole human being. This point is clearly important biologically: These cells can become either a whole organism or be coaxed into becoming any specialized cell in the body.

But this is important philosophically also. Because the cells of the blastocyst can be divided so that each part can become a whole, the blastocyst lacks true individuality—the capacity not to be able to be divided.

If one were to divide me, you would wind up with two halves. If one divides the cells of the blastocyst, one obtains several cells all capable of becoming individuals. The reason why this is philosophically important is that if the organism is not first an individual, it is difficult to understand how it could be a person. Being an individual organism is a first necessary, though certainly not sufficient, stage for being a person.

On the basis of the argument that the blastocyst is not yet an individual, some would argue that while the blastocyst is a living organism, possessing the human genetic code, such an organism is indeed valuable, but its value is not yet that accorded to a person.

Therefore some would conclude that killing the human blastocyst is not murder because there is as yet no personal subject to experience that wrong. Such a killing is a disvalue, to be sure, but a disvalue that might be offset by other positive values, such as health. The conclusion that some would draw, then, is that at least a case can be made for the use of human embryos in stem-cell research.

americancatholic.org/newsletters/CU/ac0102.asp

So, frankly it is my opinion, that artificial creation of ‘human embryos’ would not be granted human souls by our Creator. **“Thou shall not tempt the LORD thy God”. **Essentially, science would be doing that. Science could take the human DNA from corpses, skin, or where ever, or they could combine human DNA with animals, or they could essentially create a Frankenstein, and thereby tempt our holy God into giving their distorted creations a soul.

God’s peace

micah
An actual experiment would sort out a few ideas.

If God chose to not waste a perfectly good human body, and instilled a “soul” into it, that would tell us two things:
  1. God is not ruled by our considerations as to what He will or will not do.
  2. Measurements of personality and intelligence across cloned subjects will give us clues as to “soul’s” contribution to the mind in general.
If God chose not to give the clone a soul, we would have a very clear and unequivocal understanding of the “soul’s” contribution to the human mind.
 
There are many sites which speak of this, some with detailed accounts of dramatic personality changes to the recipient. Here is one site discussing the philosophic aspects of this phenomenon:

scienceray.com/philosophy-of-science/a-medical-mystery-transferred-organ-donor-consciousness/

As far as breathing is concerned, the not so grown baby begins to breathe into his/her developed lungs (amniotic fluid) at about 5 months or so.

Your interests in these matters is what makes you who you are, and hopefully there is a divine purpose in your pursuit of these theories.

God’s peace

micah
Micah,
Do you have any appreciation of how frustrating it is to have spent years developing a theory, only to have someone come along and mess it up with some annoying data? :confused:

Seriously, I love this reference. I’d no idea that such data were out there. Makes me wonder if my old short story was not trying to tell me something.

Your link included two distinct sections. I did not find the philosophical component credible, but it is way too early to write it off. References in the data section were spotty, but I shall take your word that there is more such material out there, and will check it out.

I have some ideas about how to interpret the data, but this is the kind of thing that I may just have to allow to simmer a few months, as I did with the dark-energy mystery and other ideas.

Thank you so much for passing this information along!

Likewise, thanks for the clarification on fetal breathing. Thinking about it, it makes good sense that lungs start exercising with amniotic fluid.

I wish that there was some divine use for me. That may explain why I’m still alive, albeit with the loss of some original parts. It is comforting to believe such things. However, I distrust comfortable beliefs, and my theories do not include the notion that the Creator gets personally involved in the affairs of the confused inhabitants of this obscure planet. If He really wanted me to do the little chore that I’ve taken on, He’d have made me smarter and given me some friends and allies. Whine, whine.
 
It is more than logical to ban all cloning and genetic modification of God’s creation. Thus, securing the sanctity of all life that God has created, and protecting the sanctity and sovereignty of God our Creator.

Giving science permission to distort and interfere with God’s creation in my opinion is a blasphemy against God and is against the commandment, “Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.”

We disagree. You say protect the human clone by saying it has a human soul. I say protect the sanctity of life as God has created it, and protect the sanctity and sovereignty of God by banning all cloning, and genetic modification of God’s created life forms.

To Him be the glory now and forever

micah
We agree on the point that genetic modification and cloning should be banned. And that this offends God.

But you simply have no authority or basis to make the assertion that clones would be subhuman or not have souls. They would be human beings. Still in the image and likeness of God.
 
Ok. let me see here: The soul is a constant don’t forget.

Intelligence would not be a property of soul… Intelligence is a relative-translational mechanism, a tool which may or may not encourage the liveliness of soul.

A soul cannot be intelligent because it is all infinite and all intelligent in its relative soul state of measure… I will try the word brightness.

That’s the whole property of soul…it is not relative to anything other then its own measure which is effected by the whole beings “hope in the becoming natural and intended existence”

Either is encouraged due to relative translations or discouraged due to disordered relative translations, interfering with the intended progress. So a mentally handi-capped person would not have less soul due to less intelligent property…I think that seems fair.

People may say the slow are less…but maybe it is themselves that are less as fear is engaged promoting an irrational advantage of soul out of a confusion for leverage. There are all kinds of slowness…it could be a slow soul…that is different and another stemming circumstance… The soul is a constant, and a very important property of all that is, in its important contribution which is necessary and needed by the whole.

These cloning ideas are interesting, if man can figure out a way to create out another man without having sex out of curiosity and a weird seeming advantage against I might add the unfolding nature of creation…well then…what else is new…? This would be immoral, because it objects and interferes showing non-acceptance to a seriously pronounced degree…it is wrong I believe I feel this is a shrug issue, just a sophisticated donor mother for the carrying, and another monkey wrench that man will have to get over in humanitys learning progress… Rest assured its a different person…the word “clone” sneaks its way into soul idea’s…if its another person then it would have a soul.
 
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