Does the Lord condone polygamy?

[Returning_Home]

Yes (but you DID answer a question)

So basically, to answer the original question, no, God doesn’t approve of polygamy. He has allowed it to happen at times because of exigent circumstances such as keeping his promise to Moses that his kin would number as great as the stars in Heaven when his first wife, Sarah, was barren.

That said, Biblical polygamy has nothing to do with Mormon polygamy, and the latter is always wrong, no matter what the case.

 

[Esdra]

It’s a pop culture reference to the movie Dodgeball, but I thought it a fitting analogy.

Oh I see.
I heard about that film. 'though never watched it so far. Maybe I’ll do so in the holidays (which will start next week! )

Thanks for explaining.

esdra

 

[Esdra]

So basically, to answer the original question, no, God doesn’t approve of polygamy. He has allowed it to happen at times because of exigent circumstances such as keeping his promise to Moses that his kin would number as great as the stars in Heaven when his first wife, Sarah, was barren.

That said, Biblical polygamy has nothing to do with Mormon polygamy, and the latter is always wrong, no matter what the case.

That’s completaly correct.

“only” down to King David, if I am informed correctly, god “condoned” polygamy.
I started with Abraham, as you already have written correctly above.
And for King David it was already considered a sin - refer to "King David and the Prophet Nathan (2.Sam 12:8 - I think this is the turning point when David only has one wife… - But, please correct, if I am wrong!)

Esdra

 

[Returning_Home]

That’s completaly correct.

“only” down to King David, if I am informed correctly, god “condoned” polygamy.
I started with Abraham, as you already have written correctly above.
And for King David it was already considered a sin - refer to "King David and the Prophet Nathan (2.Sam 12:8 - I think this is the turning point when David only has one wife… - But, please correct, if I am wrong!)

Esdra

Oops, I meant Abraham and said Moses. Sorry.

I think David getting his master’s wives and concubines was, although not the Biblical ideal, God’s will simply because many of those women would’ve been killed or sold into slavery if someone hadn’t been there to support them. That, of course, isn’t what he set for us as the standard with Adam and Eve, but it was the best solution to a bad situation.

The people put up with polygamy like divorce, because of their selfish, sinful hearts.

 

[TikiTokiguy]

From the Fawn Brodie book: Page 279:

*“The close affinity of religious and phallic rites is a common-place in social history, and Mormon ritual doubtless had it’s roots in the same unconscious drives that led the prophet into polygamy. The endowment ceremony was essentially fertility worship, but it’s basic nature was so camouflaged that only the skeptical felt a sense of outrage.” *

I can’t also believe how much Smith borrowed from the Freemason. They built a Freemason lodge above Smiths store and Smith became a first-degree Mason and fascinated with the secret ceremony.

• “The elaboration of the temple endowment transformed the Mormon Church into a mystery cult. The secrecy, pageantry, and veiled phallicism appealed to very basic human instincts, and the fact they seemed to be rooted in Old Testament tradition gave them an authenticity demanded by this Bible-reading people.” *
  
  How do members of the LDS church respond to all this? Are they proud it comes from the Freemasons? Phallicism? Sounds like it’s the ancient days of Greece or Egypt.

 

[Returning_Home]

I can’t also believe how much Smith borrowed from the Freemason. They built a Freemason lodge above Smiths store and Smith became a first-degree Mason and fascinated with the secret ceremony.

How do members of the LDS church respond to all this?

You show me a good Mormon and I’ll show you someone who doesn’t know their own history. The church has whitewashed its own past to the extent that even Joseph Smith wouldn’t recognize it at times.

For example, the church goes on and on about how Smith was martyred. I don’t deny that he was murdered nor do I condone it whatsoever, but what the church won’t tell its members is that Smith killed two men on the way out of this world.

Have you ever heard that? Probably not but the History of the Church (HOTC) states exactly that at least twice.

According to John Taylor, who would become the third prophet of the church, this did, indeed, happen exactly as critics of the church claim: " I shall never forget the the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenanace of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, ‘Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!’ He, however, instantly rose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenanace, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock form his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died." (HOTC vol 7 pp100-103)

In fact, volume six of HOTC also states that: “…the Prophet turned from the prostate form of his murdered brother to face death-dealing guns and bravely returned the fire of his assailants, bringing his man down every time…” (page XLI, introduction)

Regarding Freemasonry, yes, we know that Smith was a Mason and he tapped that knowledge when he needed to come up with temple ceremonies, most notably stealing the oaths of loyalty (oaths that were phased out in 1990) by the god who doesn’t change.

Again, the benefits of the church are seductive enough to keep many members from questioning these inconsistantcies too closely, afraid of what they’ll find and what that’ll lead to. In that case, ignorance is bliss.

 

[Esdra]

To the other “Mormon sects”, like for example the FLDS Church also have free mansory rites in their temples?

From the CoF (RLDS), I know they don’t, but what about the others? The RLDS temples in Independence is even open for all and they stress the peace aspect of their religion.
Did I already mention that they are very sympathic in my opinion?

Esdra

 

[guanophore]

Oops, I meant Abraham and said Moses. Sorry.

I think David getting his master’s wives and concubines was, although not the Biblical ideal, God’s will simply because many of those women would’ve been killed or sold into slavery if someone hadn’t been there to support them. That, of course, isn’t what he set for us as the standard with Adam and Eve, but it was the best solution to a bad situation.

The people put up with polygamy like divorce, because of their selfish, sinful hearts.

Actually most harems were not dissolved upon succession to the throne. Sleeping with the wives of a former king was part of the takeover. This is seen also when David’s son Absalom tried to take over the kingdom.

 

[scipio337]

Oops, I meant Abraham and said Moses. Sorry.

I think David getting his master’s wives and concubines was, although not the Biblical ideal, God’s will simply because many of those women would’ve been killed or sold into slavery if someone hadn’t been there to support them. That, of course, isn’t what he set for us as the standard with Adam and Eve, but it was the best solution to a bad situation.

The people put up with polygamy like divorce, because of their selfish, sinful hearts.

I would point out it was ABRAM, not Abraham, that took advantage of Hagar. Abram takes Hagar in Genesis 16.

It is not until much later, when Abram is 99 years old, in Genesis 17 when the Lord said:

“No longer shall you be called Abram; your name shall be Abraham, for I am making you the father of a host of nations.” (Genesis 17:5)

The name changes are very important in Jewish though, and in the OT. Both Abram and Isaac engaged in polygamy BEFORE their Covenants with God, and their name changes to Abraham and Israel. The name changes signify God’s blessing, and approval for these men, and viewing the Hebrew etymology, God makes a point of their spirtual accomplishments, and his blessing in the change of name.

I think it is important to point this out, along with the fact that in either of those cases, God did not “command” more than 1 wife. Abram took Hagar at Sarai’s request, not God’s, and Isaac had more than 1 wife only because he was tricked into marrying the first.

Everybody has made some very good points in this thread, and I’m thankful for all I’ve learned!

 

[Returning_Home]

I would point out it was ABRAM, not Abraham, that took advantage of Hagar. Abram takes Hagar in Genesis 16.

It is not until much later, when Abram is 99 years old, in Genesis 17 when the Lord said:

“No longer shall you be called Abram; your name shall be Abraham, for I am making you the father of a host of nations.” (Genesis 17:5)

The name changes are very important in Jewish though, and in the OT. Both Abram and Isaac engaged in polygamy BEFORE their Covenants with God, and their name changes to Abraham and Israel. The name changes signify God’s blessing, and approval for these men, and viewing the Hebrew etymology, God makes a point of their spirtual accomplishments, and his blessing in the change of name.

I think it is important to point this out, along with the fact that in either of those cases, God did not “command” more than 1 wife. Abram took Hagar at Sarai’s request, not God’s, and Isaac had more than 1 wife only because he was tricked into marrying the first.

Everybody has made some very good points in this thread, and I’m thankful for all I’ve learned!

Yes, you’re right on the point about Abram/Abraham. Most of us are more familiar with Abraham, so I went with that.

Guanaphore is right about the harems, too, I believe because it makes sense. That David took his master’s haren and wives was just natural progression.

Regarding Hagar, it was customary in that era to, if the wife was unable to bear children, that she provide a surrogate, usually a female servant if the family was wealthy enough to have hired help. It seems to me that God used that in keeping his promise to Abraham so he would have kin that numbered as the stars because Sarah was able to bear children later, no doubt a miracle at that age.

There was a book I used to own called “The Harlot by the Side of the Road” that went into this in some detail.

 

[TikiTokiguy]

Reading the message Smith wrote, I think the first public one, supporting polygamy, is rather disgusting. Basically it’s - God is always right. God has us do somethings that sometimes we don’t feel is right, but we should anyway. Men having more than one wife is one of those things. So get on board and marry the Prophet!

 

[why_me]

Reading the message Smith wrote, I think the first public one, supporting polygamy, is rather disgusting. Basically it’s - God is always right. God has us do somethings that sometimes we don’t feel is right, but we should anyway. Men having more than one wife is one of those things. So get on board and marry the Prophet!

Not quite. Joseph Smith was sealed to most of his wives from 1841 to 1843. During those two years he was a man in a hurry. In the 1830’s he married his second wife. Why was he in such a hurry to be sealed during those two years listed? Did he suddenly get itchy and needed some sex? I doubt it. My guess: He actually felt that god was commanding him to marry these women. He was a slow starter and god was angry with him for neglecting his duty. None of these women ever claimed that Joseph Smith was lusty, selfish etc. And many of these women had spiritual witnesses that polygamy was from god. If they didn’t have this experience they would have said no.

 

[scipio337]

Not quite. Joseph Smith was sealed to most of his wives from 1841 to 1843. During those two years he was a man in a hurry. In the 1830’s he married his second wife. Why was he in such a hurry to be sealed during those two years listed? Did he suddenly get itchy and needed some sex? I doubt it. My guess: He actually felt that god was commanding him to marry these women. He was a slow starter and god was angry with him for neglecting his duty. None of these women ever claimed that Joseph Smith was lusty, selfish etc. And many of these women had spiritual witnesses that polygamy was from god. If they didn’t have this experience they would have said no.

Which is odd, considering I can’t think of a single OT prophet who was commanded by God into polygyny.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Not quite. Joseph Smith was sealed to most of his wives from 1841 to 1843. During those two years he was a man in a hurry.

Sounds like Tiger Woods, doesn’t it?

 

[Esdra]

why me;6778040:

Not quite. Joseph Smith was sealed to most of his wives from 1841 to 1843. During those two years he was a man in a hurry.

Sounds like Tiger Woods, doesn’t it?

LOL
I like your humour, Thomas.

Yes, indeed, one could say so.

Esdra

 

[SirThomasMore]

thank you

 

[WatchingMedia]

From the readings of june 13th:

FIRST READING: 2 Samuel 12: 7 - 10, 13
7 Nathan said to David, "You are the man. Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, `I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul;
8 and I gave you your master’s house, and your master’s wives into your bosom, and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah; and if this were too little, I would add to you as much more.
9 Why have you despised the word of the LORD, to do what is evil in his sight? You have smitten Uri’ah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have slain him with the sword of the Ammonites.
10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised me, and have taken the wife of Uri’ah the Hittite to be your wife.’
13 David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.

It seems that the lord does condone polygamy or should there be a different interpretation of these verses?

David is in the Old Testament - before Christ. He was dead long before the birth of Jesus.
David also committed the sin of murder.
Read the New Testament - starting the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Returning_Home]

Reading the message Smith wrote, I think the first public one, supporting polygamy, is rather disgusting. Basically it’s - God is always right. God has us do somethings that sometimes we don’t feel is right, but we should anyway. Men having more than one wife is one of those things. So get on board and marry the Prophet!

In spite of what whyme thinks, you have it 100% correct. All of D&C 132 was about polygamy and the justification thereof. What the revelation also makes clear is that ‘celestial marriage’ is one part polygamy and one part temple marriage, the “new and everlasting covenant.”

Like modern polygamists, Smith was playing the willing servant of God role, ready to do even something so distasteful as taking multiple wives, all in the name of obedience, comparing himself to the most notable Biblical polygamists Abraham, Solomon, and David. Or that’s what the church would have us believe. In fact, the reason for the revelation was that Smith knew he had to convince Emma to get on board with it. In it, ‘god’ threatens her twice with ‘destruction’ if she didn’t shut up and get with the program.

Smith was already a polygamist by that point but was afraid of Emma’s temper so he convinced his brother, Hyrum, to try to get Emma to surrender to it. Hyrum came back to Joseph having gotten a tongue lashing the likes of which he’d probably never experienced.

And keep in mind that even though the ‘revelation’ was given in 1843, it wasn’t made scripture until 33 years later, so this represents yet another stumbling block for LDS claims of them believing and practicing what’s in their canon.

 

[why_me]

Sounds like Tiger Woods, doesn’t it?

If you say so. But it seems that many prophets of the old testament sound like tiger woods…or do they? I don’t think that you would say such a thing about david, would you? No…I don’t think so.

 

[why_me]

David is in the Old Testament - before Christ. He was dead long before the birth of Jesus.
David also committed the sin of murder.
Read the New Testament - starting the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who is the lord in that verse where the reading occured?