Does the miracle of the dancing sun violate the law of non-contradiction?

[goout]

It’s always slightly amusing when human beings, who can’t explain a thing about why we even exist, begin to parse unexplainable mysteries.

Yea I know…your mom and dad had relations and you are merely the product of a scientific process…ok

 

[Bradskii]

It’s always slightly amusing when human beings, who can’t explain a thing about why we even exist, begin to parse unexplainable mysteries.

Yea I know…your mom and dad had relations and you are merely the product of a scientific process…ok

A unexplainable mystery is not a mystery if there’s an explanation.

 

[Zaccheus]

@Bradskii I had never heard of this ‘fence post’ apparition. I apologize for misjudging your intent.

Could you tell me why you’d believe one based on a few second hand reports and not one with many contemporary claims from people you could actually talk to?

The number of witnesses is only one factor to be taken into account.

 

[Bradskii]

@Bradskii I had never heard of this ‘fence post’ apparition. I apologize for misjudging your intent.

Bradskii:

Could you tell me why you’d believe one based on a few second hand reports and not one with many contemporary claims from people you could actually talk to?

The number of witnesses is only one factor to be taken into account.

Taking the hand-on-heart claims from any number of apparently normal people who would still be able to give you their testimony first hand, is there a reason why you’d choose 3 or 4 secondhand quotes from a hundred years ago?

Just trying to work out why people choose some miracles and discount others. My personal opinion is evidence. The more potential evidence we have for a miracle (I could take a picture of the post myself and post it tomorrow) the less inclination there seems to be to accept it. Hence miracles from way back are accepted on the basis of a few reports whilst modern ones are avoided.

 

[midori]

Once upon a time, I was driving in a car, going home after spending a few days with a religious order while they did ordinations and other business, and I’d tended to some issues that had been stressing me for a few years. I’d gotten into an argument with one of my passengers right before we left, and we’d spent the last two hours in grumpy silence. It was rush hour, and the grumpy silence turned into concentration.

And then the other person said, “Um, why is the sun doing that?”

And I’m like, “Doing what?”

And they’re like, “It’s bouncing around. Like a big pink smiley face.”

I didn’t see anything special myself. The person wasn’t the type of person to lie; they weren’t particularly imaginative; and they weren’t the kind of person who would try to diffuse two hours of the silent treatment with a stupid joke. And there had already been a few other little random occurrences associated with the trip. But it was sort of an aha moment for me, where I realized that some things are gifts from God, and sometimes God will give gifts to everyone on the planet; sometimes he will give the same gift to everyone in a crowd; and sometimes God will allow different people to perceive/perceive differently/not perceive the same thing, depending on the individual.

 

[GiftofMercy]

and Mary did appear, transformed from a fence post. Who can tell…

That is incredibly insulting to a Catholic. It is also insulting to Mary herself.
Yes I know the reference you are alluding to, However your context is insulting. ‘Many’ does not cut it where numbers at Fatima are concerned.

Mary does not appear ‘transformed’ from any physical item. Hence your insult.

Your suggestion to others to

go outside and stare at the sun for a few seconds if it’s shieded by clouds and then look away to a different part of the sky.

is incredibly reckless. Damage to the eyeball and the retina can happen within a few seconds.

 

[Bradskii]

Bradskii:

and Mary did appear, transformed from a fence post. Who can tell…

That is incredibly insulting to a Catholic. It is also insulting to Mary herself.

I am not making this up, Gift. People really did think it happened. To be honest, I think that people who claim that a bit of wood viewed from a particular angle at a specific time of day is actually a visitation by Mary are the ones insulting Catholicism.

How do you think the church came out looking when that story was published? There was a lot of snorting and guffaws and eye rolling when it was discussed in these parts. And discussed with Catholics I might add.

But maybe you can tell us if you believe Fatima but not Coogee (where the post was) even though we have more first hand claims.

 

[goout]

goout:

It’s always slightly amusing when human beings, who can’t explain a thing about why we even exist, begin to parse unexplainable mysteries.

Yea I know…your mom and dad had relations and you are merely the product of a scientific process…ok

A unexplainable mystery is not a mystery if there’s an explanation.

This only works if mystery is defined as “something materially unknowable”.
For a Catholic mystery has a much deeper meaning that being explainable or unexplainable.
Many mysteries have explanations or proofs and still have bottomless mystic content.

 

[Bradskii]

Your suggestion to others to

Bradskii:

go outside and stare at the sun for a few seconds if it’s shieded by clouds and then look away to a different part of the sky.

is incredibly reckless. Damage to the eyeball and the retina can happen within a few seconds.

Don’t try this at home, kids. Luckily I’m discussing it with adults.

 

[goout]

Superstition comes in as many varieties as there are belief systems.
Atheists for instance have a superstitious attachment to reason as the arbiter of all meaning.

 

[GiftofMercy]

Mary does not appear transformed from any physical item. And that is not what people claimed. If you research the claim you will see that the vision is claimed to have appeared in front of or near the fence, not conjured or transformed from a fence post.
You are wrong in saying that.

How do you think the church came out looking when that story was published? There was a lot of snorting and guffaws and eye rolling when it was discussed in these parts. And discussed with Catholics I might add.

Catholics are quite well seasoned veterans at the snorting and guffaws of the secular world. This is nothing new. Regardless of what is going on at the time.

But maybe you can tell us if you believe Fatima but not Coogee (where the post was) even though we have more first hand claims.

Maybe you can tell us an accurate description of the alleged visions at Coogee Beach, Australia. If you wish to maintain that Mary appeared transformed from a fence post, please link the eyewitness who claims this happened.

 

[GiftofMercy]

Don’t try this at home, kids. Luckily I’m discussing it with adults.

And you think its ok to suggest an adult do this for a few seconds, given thats all it takes for damage to occur?

 

[Bradskii]

Bradskii:

goout:

It’s always slightly amusing when human beings, who can’t explain a thing about why we even exist, begin to parse unexplainable mysteries.

Yea I know…your mom and dad had relations and you are merely the product of a scientific process…ok

A unexplainable mystery is not a mystery if there’s an explanation.

This only works if mystery is defined as “something materially unknowable”.
For a Catholic mystery has a much deeper meaning that being explainable or unexplainable.
Many mysteries have explanations or proofs and still have bottomless mystic content.

I think we need more that a few second-hand quotes for it to count as materially unknowable.

 

[Bradskii]

Bradskii:

Don’t try this at home, kids. Luckily I’m discussing it with adults.

And you think its ok to suggest an adult do this for a few seconds, given thats all it takes for damage to occur?

Discussing with adults (who know that staring at the sun when it is NOT shielded by clouds is not a great idea).

Chill out, Gift. Nobody’s going to go blind because I gave an example of a retinal afterimage.

 

[Bradskii]

Mary does not appear transformed from any physical item. And that is not what people claimed. If you research the claim you will see that the vision is claimed to have appeared in front of or near the fence, not conjured or transformed from a fence post.
You are wrong in saying that.

Bradskii:

How do you think the church came out looking when that story was published? There was a lot of snorting and guffaws and eye rolling when it was discussed in these parts. And discussed with Catholics I might add.

Catholics are quite well seasoned veterans at the snorting and guffaws of the secular world. This is nothing new. Regardless of what is going on at the time.

But maybe you can tell us if you believe Fatima but not Coogee (where the post was) even though we have more first hand claims.

Maybe you can tell us an accurate description of the alleged visions at Coogee Beach, Australia. If you wish to maintain that Mary appeared transformed from a fence post, please link the eyewitness who claims this happened.

Here’s one link. Another a few posts up (no pun intended).

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAGegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw1GHEKcWivcfTxEFuAiO4CA

 

[lelinator]

Does the miracle of the dancing sun violate the law of non-contradiction?

The answer to this question depends upon what the miracle was, which also affects whether or not there actually was a miracle at all.

If the miracle was that the sun danced in the sky at Fatima but nowhere else, then yes, it violates the law of non-contradiction.

But there are other possible explanations, like mass hallucination, or atmospheric anomalies, which wouldn’t violate the law of non-contradiction. But they wouldn’t necessarily be miraculous either. They might have perfectly natural explanations.

But technically, if the sun danced in the sky at Fatima and nowhere else, then it does violate the law of non-contradiction.

If on the other hand you opt for another explanation, then there may not have been any miracle at all.

 

[GiftofMercy]

Discussing with adults (who know that staring at the sun when it is NOT shielded by clouds is not a great idea).

Chill out, Gift. Nobody’s going to go blind because I gave an example of a retinal afterimage.

You said

go outside and stare at the sun for a few seconds

This is enough time for the retina to become damaged. And if you are any indication, as an adult, given you gave this advice to another on CAF, then you are not aware that staring at the sun for a few seconds can cause sometimes irreversible eye damage.

So now you are aware that this activity can damage your eyes, I am sure as a responsible adult, you will retract this advice incase another adult , thinking as you did, tries it and has his or her retina damaged.

 

[GiftofMercy]

Here’s one link. Another a few posts up (no pun intended).

And yet, you are still unable to provide any proof that any witness claimed a fence post was transformed into the Virgin Mary. Hence your insult.

@WannabeSaint Pope PiusXII is said to have witnessed the miracle of the sun 4 times and this he interpreted as a positive sign in his discernment in declaring the Assumption of Mary.

Pope Pius XII witnessed the Fatima "miracle of the sun"

 

[Bradskii]

Bradskii:

Here’s one link. Another a few posts up (no pun intended).

And yet, you are still unable to provide any proof that any witness claimed a fence post was transformed into the Virgin Mary.

Why gee. It was a shadow on a post after all. Anyway, here’s lots more people who swear it was real.

Feature: Aussie beach Madonna draws crowds - UPI.com

Thousands of pilgrims are flocking to Sydney's Coogee Beach to see what they believe is an apparition of the Virgin Mary that appears on a fence post just 200 m

www.upi.com

Why wouldn’t you believe it? Is it possible you doubt eye-witness testimony?

 

[GiftofMercy]

Why wouldn’t you believe it? Is it possible you doubt eye-witness testimony?

Are you asking me if I believe this to be a true apparition?