Does the Music you Hear at Mass fit?

[27lw]

OP, if we say yes, absolutely always,
or, no it is completely inappropriate,

Then what? Does it prove anything except that a handful of posters who live in different areas of the county, may have differing opinions or experiences?

From your link:
The next time you attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass ask yourself, is this song appropriate to be singing at the foot of the Cross, at Calvary? For that is where we are when we attend Mass. ask yourself, is this song one that gives honor to God alone or does it honor “the people” in the congregation more than Christ?

Sounds like you have an axe to grind and are looking for support.

I think it’s a legitimate question - - whether the music is suitable or not. There are a lot of people with “an axe to grind”, because we are very unhappy that a lot of music at Mass does not fit the mood and quality of the liturgy, and this problem is seemingly ignored by pastors.

 

[Sirach2]

I think it’s a legitimate question - - whether the music is suitable or not. There are a lot of people with “an axe to grind”, because we are very unhappy that a lot of music at Mass does not fit the mood and quality of the liturgy, and this problem is seemingly ignored by pastors.

Other than whine, what good does it do to garner, perhaps 50 replies to the negative. That’s my point. It creates an opportunity to vent and complain, but does nothing constructive to solve the problem. Do you believe pastors should fire their music ministers? Or oversee their selections? Or do without music altogether because some might be offended by the choices? What?

 

[27lw]

Other than whine, what good does it do to garner, perhaps 50 replies to the negative. That’s my point. It creates an opportunity to vent and complain, but does nothing constructive to solve the problem. Do you believe pastors should fire their music ministers? Or oversee their selections? Or do without music altogether because some might be offended by the choices? What?

What do I believe pastors should do? Set standards for the music director in the following ways:

1. Follow documents about music in the liturgy, specifically that the organ is the official instrument, some instruments are too secular in our culture and should not be used at Mass, and that Gregorian chant should have “pride of place”.
2. Use propers / chant instead of the “4 hymn sandwich” heard in most places.
3. Use the built-in training ground (parochial school) to teach the kids what Mass is supposed to sound like, instead of churning out another generation of musically-uneducated Catholics.
   That’s all

 

[Sirach2]

What do I believe pastors should do? Set standards for the music director in the following ways:

1. Follow documents about music in the liturgy, specifically that the organ is the official instrument, some instruments are too secular in our culture and should not be used at Mass, and that Gregorian chant should have “pride of place”.
2. Use propers / chant instead of the “4 hymn sandwich” heard in most places.
3. Use the built-in training ground (parochial school) to teach the kids what Mass is supposed to sound like, instead of churning out another generation of musically-uneducated Catholics.
   That’s all

I appreciate your constructive analysis. That’s what I had hoped for in a thread like this, other than just to get equal amounts of yes or no or a gripe session.

That said, I do not believe gregorian chant and propers are going to become mainstays, so you will not be too effective with your pastor in this regard.

Long ago, I read a wonderful article about the liturgy, saying that the priest has so many hearts and souls to try and please, and can’t possibly win them all. If chant exclusively replaces hymns, he will lose a lot of his congregation, whose tastes are not attuned to this form of praying in song, nor is the average music minister trained in it. The few who might appreciate it will be happy, but they are not the majority. I’ll try to find that article, if I can.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

Music should fit the occasion or event we are at. We wouldn’t want to hear techno-pop at Grandma’s funeral or the Dies Irae or Taps while the Bride is walking down the aisle. Even in secular culture we know this. I recently wrote a short post on this reflecting on the truth behind a new Bud Light commercial - if you are interested you can read it here:

This isn’t Football Music

The question I have for the forum is, do you find the music at Mass to be appropriate to the Mass? This is distinct from whether you like the music you hear at Mass. You might dislike the music, but find it appropriate (like someone who doesn’t enjoy show tunes admitting they are fitting for the Oklahoma) or you might like the music, but realize it is unsuited to the Mass (like our Bride marching down the aisle to Taps or I don’t Know my Last Name by Carrie Underwood).

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. Have a Blessed Advent.

At the daily Catholic Masses I’ve attended during the week, there is NO Music. None at all. That seems so inappropriate and very, very dry compared to a week-day Orthodox Divine Liturgy.

 

[Sirach2]

Well, this isn’t the article I wanted, but it is close. Both were on EWTN, but I can’t remember the title of the special one.

II. Fellowship of the Liturgy.
The individual has to renounce his own ideas and his own way. He is obliged to subscribe to the ideas and to follow the lead of the liturgy. To it he must surrender his independence; pray with others, and not alone; obey, instead of freely disposing of himself; and stand in the ranks, instead of moving about at his own will and pleasure.

It is, furthermore, the task of the individual to apprehend clearly the ideal world of the liturgy. He must shake off the narrow trammels of his own thought, and make his own a far more comprehensive world of ideas: he must go beyond his little personal aims and adopt the educative purpose of the great fellowship of the liturgy.

It goes without saying, therefore, that he is obliged to take part in exercises which do not respond to the particular needs of which he is conscious; that he must ask for things which do not directly concern him; espouse and plead before God causes which do not affect him personally, and which merely arise out of the needs of the community at large; he must at times–and this is inevitable in so richly developed a system of symbols, prayer and action–take part in proceedings of which he does not entirely, if at all, understand the significance.
All this is particularly difficult for modern people, who find it so hard to renounce their independence.

The requirements of the liturgy can be summed up in one word, humility. Humility by renunciation; that is to say, by the abdication of self-rule and self-sufficiency. And humility by positive action; that is to say, by the acceptance of the spiritual principles which the liturgy offers and which far transcend the little world of individual spiritual existence.

From the man of individualistic disposition, then, a sacrifice for the good of the community is required; from the man of social disposition, submission to the austere restraint which characterizes liturgical fellowship. While the former must accustom himself to frequenting the company of his fellows, and must acknowledge that he is only a man among men, the latter must learn to subscribe to the noble, restrained forms which etiquette requires in the House and at the Court of the Divine Majesty.
The article reads like a book, but there is a lot of very good information, of this this is only a tiny excerpt.

When we consider that every liturgy consists of elderly, retirees, widowers, working-class middle-agers, young adults in college or marrying and starting a young family, teenagers, and elementary school children, it is a real juggling act for a pastor to try and make each liturgy a communal worship that will support all types of attendees. I don’t envy him, and I realize he is bombarded with complaints from all sorts of people who each have lost their tolerance for the rights of all.

 

[Marie5890]

The question I have for the forum is, do you find the music at Mass to be appropriate to the Mass? This is distinct from whether you like the music you hear at Mass. You might dislike the music, but find it appropriate (like someone who doesn’t enjoy show tunes admitting they are fitting for the Oklahoma) or you might like the music, but realize it is unsuited to the Mass (like our Bride marching down the aisle to Taps or I don’t Know my Last Name by Carrie Underwood).

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. Have a Blessed Advent.

Yes. My parish is blessed with a pastor who understand what V11 was aiming at and the way he celebrates the OF is what was envisioned at V11…

For all the complaints, and often times very legitimate, my pastor “gets it” when it comes to celebrating the OF…

 

[PietroPaolo]

I appreciate your constructive analysis. That’s what I had hoped for in a thread like this, other than just to get equal amounts of yes or no or a gripe session.

That said, I do not believe gregorian chant and propers are going to become mainstays, so you will not be too effective with your pastor in this regard.

Long ago, I read a wonderful article about the liturgy, saying that the priest has so many hearts and souls to try and please, and can’t possibly win them all. If chant exclusively replaces hymns, he will lose a lot of his congregation, **whose tastes are not attuned to this **form of praying in song, nor is the average music minister trained in it. The few who might **appreciate it **will be happy, but they are not the majority. I’ll try to find that article, if I can.

But that exactly is the point of the article I linked to isn’t it? The selection of music at Mass shouldn’t be, indeed can’t be, about “what makes the people happy” because the Mass isn’t about the people it’s about God and His sacrifice on Calvary. The question can’t be “whose tastes should we set the music to”, but has to be “what music is appropriate for the Holy Sacrifice.”

I’m a child of the 90’s. I’ll admit it, I like rap music. I even enjoy Christian rap (if you can believe that). I’d even enjoy listening to a (well done) Creed set to a nice beat. But it isn’t appropriate for the Mass. It doesn’t matter that I listen to rap or alternative rock in my car, those forms of music are simply out of place at Mass.

I’d suggest you are looking at the question backwards.

 

[Sirach2]

But that exactly is the point of the article I linked to isn’t it? The selection of music at Mass shouldn’t be, indeed can’t be, about “what makes the people happy” because the Mass isn’t about the people it’s about God and His sacrifice on Calvary. The question can’t be “whose tastes should we set the music to”, but has to be “what music is appropriate for the Holy Sacrifice.”

However, some have maintained that gregorian chant and propers are the correct way to worship. I disagree. It is simply “A” way, not necessarily the best choice, nor is it going to meet the needs of the majority. We must bend our taste for the “best” to submit to what the pastor and music director have decided, in all humility, even if it is not in accord with what we believe it should be.

And who do you believe is the one who decides what is appropriate for the sacrifice?
Yup, the pastor, together with those he appointed to direct the music. I know, that’s a hard pill for some to swallow, but being a child of the 40’s, I have learned to mellow with age and that the world does not revolve around my preferences.

 

[PietroPaolo]

However, some have maintained that gregorian chant and propers are the correct way to worship. I disagree. It is simply “A” way, not necessarily the best choice, nor is it going to meet the needs of the majority. We must bend our taste for the “best” to submit to what the pastor and music director have decided, in all humility, even if it is not in accord with what we believe it should be.

And **who do you believe is the one who decides what is appropriate for the sacrifice? **
Yup, the pastor, together with those he appointed to direct the music. I know, that’s a hard pill for some to swallow, but being a child of the 40’s, I have learned to mellow with age and that the world does not revolve around my preferences.

It doesn’t matter who I believe is the one who decides. The Fathers of Vatican 2 already decided - From Sacrosanctum Concilium The Church’s Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy

Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church…no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority. (paragraph 22)

The treasure of sacred music is to be preserved and fostered with great care. (144)

The Church acknowledges **Gregorian chant **as specially suited to the Roman liturgy; therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services. (116)

In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things. (120)

 

[PietroPaolo]

However, some have maintained that gregorian chant and propers are the correct way to worship. I disagree. It is simply “A” way, not necessarily the best choice, nor is it going to meet the needs of the majority. We must bend our taste for the “best” to submit to what the pastor and music director have decided, in all humility, even if it is not in accord with what we believe it should be.

And who do you believe is the one who decides what is appropriate for the sacrifice?
Yup, the pastor, together with those he appointed to direct the music. I know, that’s a hard pill for some to swallow, but being a child of the 40’s, I have learned to mellow with age and that the world does not revolve around my preferences.

Secondly, I’d ask you to read the article I originally linked to. This isn’t about preferences. It’s about propriety. Singing “Happy Birthday to You” at a funeral isn’t a matter of preference, it’s a matter of inappropriateness. Likewise, playing Taps in the delivery room as a baby is born isn’t just “not my cup of tea” it is, again, inappropriate. The question isn’t “What music do I prefer to hear at Mass” or even “What music does father (or the music director) prefer to hear at Mass” but “What music is appropriate for the Holy Sacrifice.”

 

[christofirst]

I have to hand it to the music director at my parish, her choices are always appropriate for the liturgical season. Often, there will be something based on the actual readings. It is almost always something from the modern Mass songbook of Hurd or Haugen or the like, but much care seems to go into the choices. During Lent, we even sing the Agnus Dei in Latin without accompaniment, which might be an act of extreme penance for our music director (she usually prefers a more celebratory tone), but I find it very appropriate.

 

[Sirach2]

The question isn’t “What music do I prefer to hear at Mass” or even “What music does father (or the music director) prefer to hear at Mass” but “What music is appropriate for the Holy Sacrifice.”

Not going to dicker with you, P.P. I hear you saying that it must be exclusively the way you perceive it to be according to your perusal of the documents. However, you will not be successful in rigorously demanding that priests therefore offer only greg. chant. That is not the only option available to worship, even if it was said to be pride of place. Catholic Culture has not adopted it, and priests are not reprobate for not using it. Do you ever hear this in broadcasted papal masses? We would need all new worship aids if G.C. was used exclusively. However, the hymnals in use have been approved by the Bishops, so I would guess your argument should be with them, not the poor priest who chooses to use a lawful worship aid.

I hardly think that we would hear Happy Birthday at a funeral. Using hyperbole is stretching your point overmuch. It seems you have a beef with pastors who do not meet your standards.

 

[PietroPaolo]

Not going to dicker with you, P.P. I hear you saying that it must be exclusively the way you perceive it to be according to your perusal of the documents. However, you will not be successful in rigorously demanding that priests therefore offer only greg. chant. That is not the only option available to worship, even if it was said to be pride of place. Catholic Culture has not adopted it, and priests are not reprobate for not using it. Do you ever hear this in broadcasted papal masses? We would need all new worship aids if G.C. was used exclusively. However, the hymnals in use have been approved by the Bishops, so I would guess your argument should be with them, not the poor priest who chooses to use a lawful worship aid.

I hardly think that we would hear Happy Birthday at a funeral. Using hyperbole is stretching your point overmuch. It seems you have a beef with pastors who do not meet your standards.

I don’t have a “beef” with anyone. You seem to be very sensitive on this topic. I simply asked “is the music you hear at Mass appropriate for the Mass.” I never said anyone was reprobate - talk about using hyperbole! Did I say chant had to be used exclusively? Also, no. Perhaps you ought to either a) respond to what I actually say instead of “what you hear me saying” or better still b) make an argument for why the music you hear at Mass is appropriate. I haven’t heard that yet from you.

 

[Sirach2]

I don’t have a “beef” with anyone. You seem to be very sensitive on this topic. I simply asked “is the music you hear at Mass appropriate for the Mass.” I never said anyone was reprobate - talk about using hyperbole! Did I say chant had to be used exclusively? Also, no. Perhaps you ought to either a) respond to what I actually say instead of “what you hear me saying” or better still b) make an argument for why the music you hear at Mass is appropriate. I haven’t heard that yet from you.

Our music director is excellent, and is also a member of the diocesan choir at the Bishop’s Cathedral. They went to Rome and sang for the Pope a few years ago. Her choices are always on target, and I have no complaints whatsoever. However, we do not use G. Chant. I have never heard it in any liturgy in the several parishes I habitually attend in my area.

From your link:

The next time you attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass ask yourself, is this song appropriate to be singing at the foot of the Cross, at Calvary? For that is where we are when we attend Mass. ask yourself, is this song one that gives honor to God alone or does it honor “the people” in the congregation more than Christ?

I was sensitive, yes, because it seems to imply that our music honors the people more than Christ. This comment has been used disrespectfully in this forum a few times and I recoil each time I read it. I apologize if that was not your intention, but the words were there in black and white, easy to read it literally, as it was written.

P.S. I was an organist in my parish for many years, so I am quite a bit more educated than the man in the pew with regard to music in liturgy.

 

[27lw]

We seem to be going around and around, in the usual way on the topic of music at Mass. I will throw a few more questions out there:

1. If Gregorian chant is supposed to have “pride of place”, why is it almost never heard at a typical Sunday liturgy?
2. If the propers exist, and are the music “proper” to a particular Sunday, why are they ALWAYS skipped over, for “another suitable song”? Why do we NEVER hear these?
3. It would seem that it is “someone’s” taste omitting them! Someone’s taste appears to be forming the typical American Sunday Mass, and it ain’t what was given to us by the Vatican.
4. I wish the bishops would set the tone, and have standards across the diocese for chant, propers, etc. Then individual pastors wouldn’t have to worry about parishioners hopping away to St. Groovy Parish, because the music at St. Groovy would be similar to what was happening at St. Cecilia.

 

[PietroPaolo]

Our music director is excellent, and is also a member of the diocesan choir at the Bishop’s Cathedral. They went to Rome and sang for the Pope a few years ago. Her choices are always on target, and I have no complaints whatsoever. However, we do not use G. Chant. I have never heard it in any liturgy in the several parishes I habitually attend in my area.

From your link:

I was sensitive, yes, because it seems to imply that our music honors the people more than Christ. This comment has been used disrespectfully in this forum a few times and I recoil each time I read it. I apologize if that was not your intention, but the words were there in black and white, easy to read it literally, as it was written.

P.S. I was an organist in my parish for many years, so I am quite a bit more educated than the man in the pew with regard to music in liturgy.

That was my intention, although I didn’t mean to overgeneralize. Many of the songs at our parish feature lyrics such as:

Gather us in
Christ has no body now but yours
Raise us up on Eagles Wings
We’re building, building the kingdom
Draw near, take the body of your Lord
Father we thank thee who hast planted thy name in our hearts
Baptized in living waters…we firmly stand
I rejoiced when I heard them say
Jesus, light in our darkness…Here we receive you
We come to share our story, we come to break the bread
We shall be changed; the trumpet sound
O Breathe on me, O breath of God
Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine
Here I am, O God, I come to do your will
I want to walk as a child of light
Etc

Compare that to the Ordinary of the Mass (Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Agnus, Sanctus) which is entirely focused on praising God, confessing truths about God, and begging for mercy from God. The Mass parts are theocentric, most music (at least that I hear) is people-centric. That is a serious problem.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

We seem to be going around and around, in the usual way on the topic of music at Mass. I will throw a few more questions out there:

1. If Gregorian chant is supposed to have “pride of place”, why is it almost never heard at a typical Sunday liturgy?
2. If the propers exist, and are the music “proper” to a particular Sunday, why are they ALWAYS skipped over, for “another suitable song”? Why do we NEVER hear these?
3. It would seem that it is “someone’s” taste omitting them! Someone’s taste appears to be forming the typical American Sunday Mass, and it ain’t what was given to us by the Vatican.
4. I wish **the bishops **would set the tone, and have standards across the diocese for chant, propers, etc. Then individual pastors wouldn’t have to worry about parishioners hopping away to St. Groovy Parish, because the music at St. Groovy would be similar to what was happening at St. Cecilia.

You need to remember that you are speaking only about your bishop, your diocese, and the several parishes where you have attended Mass in your diocese.

Similarly, I am speaking only about my diocese, but the issues you speak of are not a problem here. No, we do not hear the propers at every Mass, but we do hear them. My parish (and we are not the only ones) uses a chant setting and have since last Advent.

A more constructive path would be to speak directly to your pastor, to the office of liturgy in your diocese, even to your bishop. God bless you as you seek to implement a change to more appropriate music.

 

[27lw]

Thank you Mrs. Sally!
That’s good to know that there are some positive and reverent changes happening. Do you know how that got implemented? Do you think regular “people in the pews” approached the chancery, or was there a change in leadership that prompted it?
I don’t know who to approach or how to approach them, without seeming like a complete cranky person (ha ha!).
Do you have any suggestions?

 

[PietroPaolo]

That was my intention, although I didn’t mean to overgeneralize. Many of the songs at our parish feature lyrics such as:

Gather us in
Christ has no body now but yours
Raise us up on Eagles Wings
We’re building, building the kingdom
Draw near, take the body of your Lord
Father we thank thee who hast planted thy name in our hearts
Baptized in living waters…we firmly stand
I rejoiced when I heard them say
Jesus, light in our darkness…Here we receive you
We come to share our story, we come to break the bread
We shall be changed; the trumpet sound
O Breathe on me, O breath of God
Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine
Here I am, O God, I come to do your will
I want to walk as a child of light
Etc

Compare that to the Ordinary of the Mass (Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Agnus, Sanctus) which is entirely focused on praising God, confessing truths about God, and begging for mercy from God. The Mass parts are theocentric, most music (at least that I hear) is people-centric. That is a serious problem.

And that doesn’t even mention the weird songs where we sing as if we are Jesus

I danced in the morning when the world was begun
I am the bread of life
Take and eat this is my body
I give you a new commandment
Etc

Or the theologically problematic songs like
Taste and see the goodness of the Lord (sung during communion when we can’t taste or see the Lord - the accident of bread remaining)
Christ has no body now but yours (also sung during communion when Christ is bodily present before us)
I danced in the morning when the world was made (uh… no He didn’t)
Etc