Does the Novus Ordo reflect the Mass of the Early Church

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The essentials of the old Latin Mass are still there that which has changed is the language.
Well, not quite. The language hasn’t changed. The “official” language of the new Mass is still Latin, the Edition Typica of the missal is still Latin, and the new Mass can licitly be said in Latin anywhere, by any priest capable of it. What is allowed, is an approved vernacular translation for pastoral reasons:
    1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
  1. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.
  1. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language.
  1. Translations from the Latin text into the mother tongue intended for use in the liturgy must be approved by the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned above.
and also:
  1. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.
I assume most people, though, know this.
 
At the first mass (also known as the last supper) the communicants received in the hand, and drank from the cup.

Peace
James
Yes, they were ordained at the Last Supper as well 😉 They were not laity at that point.
 
Darn you you bet me to it!! Bishop Schnider was the first one who came to my mind on this.

I would say no to that one. The TLM gradually developed over the course of the first millennium and has been enriched over a considerable period of time. Indeed the Missal of Pius V (1570 ) was very similar to the first known printed edition from 1474 which itself would have been recognisable to Pope St. Gregory the Great in the 6th Century
And thus the term Gregorian Rite !
 
Absolutely not. It’s 50/50, we don’t know whether it was on the tongue as was a custom for the host of a dinner to feed his guests so, or whether it is as you say. Don’t try and make up history to support your argument, we cannot and will not know the answer until we are in heaven and can ask God ourselves 🙂

And either way, yes they were clergy.

God bless
cymbal crash !
 
My point is that receiving the hand isn’t wrong, since Our Lord allowed many to touch his physical body with their hands. What matters is the reverence.
In the early church, the Host was placed in the RIGHT hand and lifted to be taken from the hand to the tongue. Not received in the left and placed on the tongue by the right hand.

Also, women placed a cloth over their hands, therefore, never truly touched the Host.
 
Is it fair to say Communion should be allowed in the hand because the early Church allowed it? Was the Traditional Latin Mass overly influenced by Middle Age thinking?
What difference does any of this make? They are both valid Masses TODAY. It is not up to us to determine what should or should not happen to the Mass - the Church is not a democracy. All this speculation and opinion leaves us ripe for schism. The fact remains that there are two forms of the same rite. They both have specific rubrics. They are both valid. Beyond that, what do people want?

I will just never understand all this infighting and bickering over the NO and the TLM. We can all have PERSONAL PREFERENCES between the two and how we personally choose to worship, but until the Holy Father determines otherwise, we have both.

Get over it.

~Liza
 
I will just never understand all this infighting and bickering over the NO and the TLM. We can all have PERSONAL PREFERENCES between the two and how we personally choose to worship, but until the Holy Father determines otherwise, we have both.

Get over it.

~Liza
Who’s fighting?

I’m starting to wonder why this advice comes up. It’s almost a form of censorship. It’s like some people want to think certain subjects are taboo. I quite enjoy learning about the Church; it’s a fascinating study. For your information, there are high ranking clergy opening this subject, that CITH should be reconsidered. Hopefully you wouldn’t try to silence them?
 
Who’s fighting?
Oh gosh - maybe all the ridiculous speculation of what did or didn’t happen at the Last Supper, who received Jesus how, in the hand, on the tongue, what was the early Mass like. If someone really wants to know, why don’t they study the topic, not post questions on an internet forum? :rolleyes:
I’m starting to wonder why this advice comes up. It’s almost a form of censorship. It’s like some people want to think certain subjects are taboo. I quite enjoy learning about the Church; it’s a fascinating study. For your information, there are high ranking clergy opening this subject, that CITH should be reconsidered. Hopefully you wouldn’t try to silence them?
That is silly - no one is trying to “silence” anyone. Yes - learning is wonderful, it is encouraged, it is welcome, and hoped for!! But the crazy arguments on this forum about which is better and what the Church should do or not do is just a total waste of time. Me personally, I prefer to receive on the tongue. But you don’t see me going around telling people they are irreverent or any other descriptive I’ve actually read on this forum because they don’t agree with me. THAT is what I don’t understand and what gets very tiring.

I totally feel for the mods here - seeing the same old stuff hashed and rehashed, argued and re-argued every single day. I surely must get old for them.

The bottom line is - this is what we have today - two rites, with two ways of receiving Jesus that are both valid. Do I personally like it - NO. But what I feel should happen is entirely irrelevant, and to jump up and down about it and get all hot under the collar is a total waste of time and effort. I abide by my Church. And if or when she says it changes, I change with her.

🤷

~Liza
 
The bottom line is - this is what we have today - two rites, with two ways of receiving Jesus that are both valid. Do I personally like it - NO. But what I feel should happen is entirely irrelevant, and to jump up and down about it and get all hot under the collar is a total waste of time and effort. I abide by my Church. And if or when she says it changes, I change with her.

🤷

~Liza
Who’s hot under the collar?

If this is an emotional issue for you then stay away from it. Others here are able to discuss current Church topics without getting emotional. If high ranking members of the clergy think this subject is relevant who are we to argue?
 
There is also the term TRUE MASS!

Not the banal fabricated “Mass of Saint Bugninni” with its defective theology!!! 😃
“In recent times, even in materialist North America, the growth of the Church was magnificent with the liturgy being kept in Latin. The attempts of the Protestants have failed, and Protestantism uses the vernacular. We ask again: Why the change, especially since changes in this matter involve many difficulties and great dangers? All of us here at the Council can recall the fundamental changes in the meaning of words in common use. Thus it follows that if the Sacred Liturgy were in the vernacular, the immutability of doctrine would be endangered.
The introduction of the vernacular should be separated from the action of the Mass. The Mass must remain as it is. Grave changes in the liturgy introduce grave changes in dogmata.”
James Cardinal McIntyre addressing the Second Vatican Council.
All we have to do is take a look around 🤷
 
Liza, all I can say is, despite my disagreement with much you say, I commend you on recognizing there are two rites indeed.

That’s what caused the division, and that’s what will ensure it will continue.
 
I would say no to that one. The TLM gradually developed over the course of the first millennium and has been enriched over a considerable period of time. Indeed the Missal of Pius V (1570 ) was very similar to the first known printed edition from 1474 which itself would have been recognisable to Pope St. Gregory the Great in the 6th Century
If we’re talking about the basic structure (i.e. the text) this indeed would be the case. We need not oversimplify things though since the rubrics, the vestments and the chant used would have been naturally different. Here are some of them:
  • The Offertory was, as per the name, the time when the people offered their gifts and when the clergy prepared the altar. There were no prayers during the Offertory then, except for the Secret.
  • There was no Creed, its recital being introduced only into Rome at the behest of Henry II in 1014. That being said there were no Prayers at the Foot of the Altar or Confiteor either.
  • The length of some chant was not fixed (for example the Introit and the Kyrie); the choir would usually continue singing the Psalms until given a signal by the Pope to finish.
  • There was no elevation of the Sacred Species during the Words of Institution yet (this being introduced only at the close of the 12th century and later); the only elevation of the Body and the Blood there was is when the archdeacon lifts the chalice, carrying it using the offertory-veil twisted in the chalice’s handles, with the Pope touching its sides using the consecrated loaves at the Per ipsum.
  • There were the two customs of the Sancta and the Fermentum. The Sancta refers to the custom of putting into the chalice at the Pax Domini a fragment consecrated at the preceding Mass and brought forth at the beginning of the present one (two acolytes usually come carrying fragments of the Eucharist consecrated during the Introit for the Pope to check). The Fermentum, meanwhile, refers to the custom of sending consecrated bread from the bishop’s (Pope’s) Mass to the priests whose duty it was to celebrate in the titular churches of Rome. Thus, in all the churches of Rome, and at every assembly there for liturgical worship past or present, there was always the same Sacrifice, the same Eucharist, the same Communion.
  • The way some of the clergy (aside from the Pope, who receives from his cathedra) communicate is quite curious. They receive the Bread from the hands of the Pope, go to the end of the altar - bishops and priests to the left, with the deacons to the right - and then consume the Eucharist there. The other clergy were later communicated by the Pope and the bishops (Body), and the archdeacon and the other deacons (Blood).
  • Lay communicants usually received the Precious Blood through a type of straw (a custom which was preserved in Papal Masses of later ages). The Precious Blood consumed by laymen was hallowed indirectly by addition of a small quantity of the one consecrated by the Pope.
  • Communion was also the time when the next Station was announced and when the Pope - through the notaries - handed out invitations for breakfast with him or his vicar to certain people.
  • Overall, there was more bowing and less genuflecting.
  • Incense was also less used (the more frequent use of incense in later days was due to the influence of the Gallican Rites): it was employed only when the Pope arrives at the stational church, when he makes his way to the altar at the beginning of the Mass, and when the deacon goes up to the ambo. Some basilicas might have a hanging censer before an icon or an altar, burning throughout the liturgy.
  • Mass back then took a long time to finish, especially if there was a sermon and if there were a large number of communicants. Pope St. Gregory the Great in fact once complained to the Patriarch Eulogius of Alexandria how he was afflicted with such severe gout that he scarcely had the strength to stand to offer the Liturgy on solemn feastdays, which lasted three hours (!).
The above is mostly based on the First Ordo Romanus. Thus the Catholic Encylopedia tells us:

The first of these Ordines Romani, describing the ceremonies of a solemn Mass celebrated by the pope himself or his deputy, is the most valuable, as it is also one of the most ancient. Modern opinion inclines to the belief that the early part of it (numbers 1-21) really represents in substance the usages of a stational Mass in the time of Pope Gregory the Great (Kösters, “Studien zu Mabillons röm. Ord.”, 6; cf. Grisar, “Analecta Romana”, I, 193), but there are also, undoubtedly, in our present text adjustments and additions which must be attributed to the end of the seventh century (Atchley, “Ord. Rom. Primus”, 7, favours a later date, but in this he only follows Probst). The fact that Amalarius, who seems to have had a copy of this Ordo before him did not find its description of paschal ceremonies in agreement with the actual Roman practice of his day, as expounded to him by Archdeacon Theodore in 832, need not lead us, with Mönchemeyer (“Amalar”, 141), to the conclusion that the ceremonial never represented the official Roman use, and that it was merely an outline serving as a model for similar ceremonies in the Frankish dominions. On the contrary, so far as regards numbers 1- 21, every detail attaches itself in the closest way to the pontifical ceremonies of Rome.
 
Was the Mass of the early Church similar to the Novus Ordo? If so, in what ways?
That depends on what you mean by ‘early Church’. Are we talking about the first-second generation of Christians? Or are we talking about the Roman liturgy of the 7th-9th centuries (where we do have some records)?
Is it fair to say Communion should be allowed in the hand because the early Church allowed it?
It’s not my place to judge whether Communion in the hand is good or not (I personally am not used to receive it in the hand), but not everything that Jesus and the Apostles/the early Church did we must automatically copy.
For example, it’s quite likely that Jesus held the first Eucharist on the guest-room or even under a stall or an awning erected on the rooftop of the house they happened to be staying (the anagaion, aka ‘upper-room’). Now that doesn’t mean that celebrating Masses on rooftops is the only way to go! 😃
Was the Traditional Latin Mass overly influenced by Middle Age thinking?
This is what I don’t get: the idea that just because it’s ‘medieval’ it’s automatically bad. I think this is a remnant of the Renaissance-‘Enlightenment’ idea that the Middle Ages was a backward time, populated with gullible numbskulls. 🤷
 
Attempts to “return to the liturgy of the early Christians” are misguided from the outset. The liturgy grew organically through the ages in response to various needs, as well as theological developments.
So, this kind of “archeologism” is at odds with the principle of “organic” development. It is truly “inorganic.”

I personally feel that the so-called ‘1965 missal’ represented a form of the mass that was much more respectful of the principal of organic development than the Pauline mass, though I do accept the latter as valid and, in fact, normally attend it.
 
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