Does the Permanent Diaconate harm vocations to the Priesthood?

[Woodstock]

Why, for instance, aren’t there more permanent deacons who are younger, single men? Typically, they are not even recuited, it would seem; the assumtion being that they ought to just, “Go all the way.”

There aren’t younger single men being recruited to the diaconate because the canonical age is higher for a permanent deacon than it is for a priest. Because young single men are still discerning their vocations and may not be married after ordination, meaning they need to focus on if they are called to married life or not first as it isn’t an impediment to the diaconate but is to religious life. And because diaconate formation takes less time than priestly formation and when combined with the higher age for permanent deacon ordinations means the age to start recruiting them is higher.

By the time the young married men are eligible to begin diaconate formation, they usually have a couple young children at home and are in the throes of establishing family life. So middle-aged men and older are the regular group who begin looking into it.

 

[chicago]

There aren’t younger single men being recruited to the diaconate because the canonical age is higher for a permanent deacon than it is for a priest. Because young single men are still discerning their vocations and may not be married after ordination, meaning they need to focus on if they are called to married life or not first as it isn’t an impediment to the diaconate but is to religious life.

Up to this point, this makes no sense. A younger single man can certainly be ordained to the transitional diaconate and priesthood, so why not the permanent diaconate, also, if some are truly called to that vocation in its own right and for its own good?

And because diaconate formation takes less time than priestly formation and when combined with the higher age for permanent deacon ordinations means the age to start recruiting them is higher.

Again, why not just educate such men up to and including the same point as they would if they were to enter the transitional diaconate? (Basically a year, maybe, short of priestly education, itself.) I posit that there should be no lower limit of 35 on permanent deacons, seeing as how the lower limit age for priestly ordinations is, what, 23 or something thereabout?

By the time the young married men are eligible to begin diaconate formation, they usually have a couple young children at home and are in the throes of establishing family life. So middle-aged men and older are the regular group who begin looking into it.

This is a given. Perhaps it is what the Church truly desires. But it also is what lends the vocation’s perception to being one for “married men” and its being seen by many as the way to be “priests minor”, having it “both ways” rather than recognizing it widely as something of value in its own right and ordering. I think this limits (in understanding and practice) both the true nature of this minsitry and it’s full potential of exercise.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Beckers, Chicago, Genesis, Michael & Woodstock:

I don’t know how much this will add to the conversation, but I’ve known a Permanent Deacon for the better part of 13 years (I’ve seen him occasionally).

When, I first met this deacon in 1994, I wasn’t attending any church at all, and I thought he was dumb as a stump. I was smarter than he was and knew more than he did, including Scripture (I was a lapsed Anglo-Catholic who had taught Confirmation Class at my local Catholic parish at one time).

Well, I was brought back to the Lord in a “Rescue Operation” I’ve described elsewhere in this Forum (It only took The Lord 2 months & a miracle to get through this “Stony Heart” of mine). A few months later, I found this deacon to be extremely wise in the things of God.The same thing every time I talked with him during the next 2 years. The knowledge didn’t matter nearly as much as the WISDOM.

I would say that this deacon is now in his early 70’s, and he was in his mid 50’s when he was ordained to the Diaconate (He was ordained around 1991-92). He’s been married 50 years, and was a successful businessman until he retired.

I don’t know how his parish and his diocese use him and his talents, but you can’t bet they keep him busy.

As an Anglo-Catholic, I can tell you that there are several advantages to the celebate Priesthood that become obvious when one sees a married priest having to deal with family, housing, real-estate, etc. issues that Catholic priests simply don’t have to deal with.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Joannm]

I am afraid we are missing the point here. The issue was: isn’t it true that a lot of men want to avoid the “sacrifice” that celibacy consists of to opt instead for marriage where they can still “play priest” as a deacon. Here’s the thing - indeed, marriage is just as much or more than a sacrifice than celibacy (I would say). But when a man is in that situation where he is choosing between celibacy and marriage, he is not thinking, “Boy, marriage is going to be the tougher life, but it’s my call, so I’ll do the best I can with God’s grace”. No, rather the attitude is, “Boy, it would be too tough to live without sex and female companionship - that’s way too much of a sacrifice. I’m going to get married”. In other words, those who opt for marriage over priesthood generally do so thinking it would be “easier”. Of course, most of them find out it is not the case, and as Dr. Hahn says, a lot of them have regrets and try to get into the diaconate program as a way to “kind of compensate” for their mistake. Bottom line: marriage may indeed require more of a sacrifice, and the diaconate maybe even more so, but young men choose marriage because they think it would be LESS of a sacrifice, and the priesthood would be MORE of one (or too much of one). So the spirit of sacrifice is not really there.

I disagree. My huband has no thoughts of becoming a priest when I met him. In fact he was harldy a practicing Catholic. We were married in 1977. It wasn’t until 1990, after a conversion experince, that he felt the call to the diaconate.

I work with deacons in formation. Most of them are utterly surprized that they are sitting in a formation class as it was the furthest thing from their minds up until a few years before. The diaconate is a call, a different call from that of a priest. And I do know some unmarried deacons. They become deacons instead of priests because they do not feel called to priesthood. They sometimes have obligations to family, some to their work, and some to the stability of their life situation.

If you talk to any deacon, I would be shocked if any agree with what Scott Hahn stated. It shows that he too does not understand the diaconate.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I disagree. My huband has no thoughts of becoming a priest when I met him. In fact he was harldy a practicing Catholic. We were married in 1977. It wasn’t until 1990, after a conversion experince, that he felt the call to the diaconate.

I work with deacons in formation. Most of them are utterly surprized that they are sitting in a formation class as it was the furthest thing from their minds up until a few years before. The diaconate is a call, a different call from that of a priest. And I do know some unmarried deacons. They become deacons instead of priests because they do not feel called to priesthood. They sometimes have obligations to family, some to their work, and some to the stability of their life situation.

If you talk to any deacon, I would be shocked if any agree with what Scott Hahn stated. It shows that he too does not understand the diaconate.

I tend to agree. But I would go easy on Dr. Hahn just yet…

I would like to see reference in context to this Dr. Hahn statement, actually.

 

[Michael_Saint]

I tend to agree. But I would go easy on Dr. Hahn just yet…

I would like to see reference in context to this Dr. Hahn statement, actually.

I’ll try to get the exact quote for you - I can tell you that it is in his “Exodus” Tape/CD series, either Tape #3 or #4. He was talking about how God wants us to embrace Plan A, but because of certain reasons we often “settle” for Plan B. He said he has met a lot of men who when they were in the seminary in the 1970s had a liberal rector who let them date, and they would go out on a date, some girl would “knock them off their feet”, and they would get married. But they have spent the last 20 years burdened with guilt because they believed they missed their call (the series was recorded in 1991). He said many such men are now in the permanent diaconate program as a way to “sort of compensate” for the fact that they missed their call. He said that such men should rather just be the best husbands and fathers they can be.

 

[Corki]

I’ll try to get the exact quote for you - I can tell you that it is in his “Exodus” Tape/CD series, either Tape #3 or #4. He was talking about how God wants us to embrace Plan A, but because of certain reasons we often “settle” for Plan B. He said he has met a lot of men who when they were in the seminary in the 1970s had a liberal rector who let them date, and they would go out on a date, some girl would “knock them off their feet”, and they would get married. But they have spent the last 20 years burdened with guilt because they believed they missed their call (the series was recorded in 1991). He said many such men are now in the permanent diaconate program as a way to “sort of compensate” for the fact that they missed their call. He said that such men should rather just be the best husbands and fathers they can be.

I will look forward to that reference too, thanks.

This follows a theory of mine. When I first moved to a new diocese, I saw in the diocisan paper that they only ordained two priests that year. A few weeks later, they were celebrating the ordination of 30 or so men to the diaconate. Being a product of weak Catholicity in the 60s, 70s and 80s myself, I couldn’t help but wonder if at least some of these men were those who did not have anyone to encourage or foster their vocation to the priesthood when they were younger. I have known deacons who have stories like Joannm’s husband but I have also known several married men in diaconate formation who admit that they never seriously considered the priesthood when they were young in spite of being faithfully practicing Catholcs at the time.

One Catholic radio personality recently said that every young man in his 20s and 30s needs to ask himself if God is calling him to the priesthood. There’s a good chance that the answer is “no” but you have to open yourself up to the possibility in an active way. I don’t think anyone was saying that for decades.

 

[Norseman82]

As an ex-seminarian myself (I went to the same one Chicago went to), I will offer this perspective:

Sacramentally, the only things a priest can do that a deacon cannot are consecration of Eucharist and absolution of sins. Additionally, if a permanent deacon’s wife dies, he is to be celibate for the rest of his life (I’ve heard that exceptions can be made if he has small children, but I have no concrete examples of this).

Therefore, I personally think that permanent deacons who are widowers could be an additional source of vocations to the priesthood. In fact, I think I’ve heard of one or two who have travelled that route.

 

[Woodstock]

…if a permanent deacon dies, he is to be celibate for the rest of his life…

I should hope so!

 

[Norseman82]

I should hope so!

OOPS! Thanks for catching that! I edited my post…

 

[SeekerJen]

I’ll try to get the exact quote for you - I can tell you that it is in his “Exodus” Tape/CD series, either Tape #3 or #4. He was talking about how God wants us to embrace Plan A, but because of certain reasons we often “settle” for Plan B. He said he has met a lot of men who when they were in the seminary in the 1970s had a liberal rector who let them date, and they would go out on a date, some girl would “knock them off their feet”, and they would get married. But they have spent the last 20 years burdened with guilt because they believed they missed their call (the series was recorded in 1991). He said many such men are now in the permanent diaconate program as a way to “sort of compensate” for the fact that they missed their call. He said that such men should rather just be the best husbands and fathers they can be.

I will give Scott Hahn the benefit of the doubt by realizing that he likely does not realize how insulting that statement is to both God who calls and the men who answer.I am surprised and disappointed, as that quote seems to indicate that he fails to understand that God calls us many times, as He needs us- not just the one time. As a former Protestant minister and adult convert, he of all people should understand the concept of later-life vocation.

God needs these men to be good husbands and fathers, and to raise up good, holy families, and then He needs them to serve His Church in a special way. Also, what better way for a young man to be exposed to the beauty and holiness of ordained ministry than to be the son of a deacon…and what deacon would steer his son away from a vocation to the priesthood (unlike many lay parents)? We don’t know that this is not part of God’s plan to replenish the priesthood.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

As an ex-seminarian myself (I went to the same one Chicago went to), I will offer this perspective:

Sacramentally, the only things a priest can do that a deacon cannot are consecration of Eucharist and absolution of sins. Additionally, if a permanent deacon’s wife dies, he is to be celibate for the rest of his life (I’ve heard that exceptions can be made if he has small children, but I have no concrete examples of this).

Therefore, I personally think that permanent deacons who are widowers could be an additional source of vocations to the priesthood. In fact, I think I’ve heard of one or two who have travelled that route.

Ex-seminarian here myself. And actually priesthood AND marriage are an option for me - I am Greek Catholic, so I could do both…

Having said that, I would still consider the diaconate but not the priesthood any longer. It is distinct and different - not a matter of “settling”.

If you will indulge a little personal pontification, I suspect the reason that the diaconate has flourished in places where priestly ordinations have not is in fact due to the nature of the priestly formation program. The celibate young man doesn’t remain in the world, at a job, with his family, undergoing weekend, and nightly formation programs with summer retreats.

There are some formation programs for priests in some diocese that would be intolerable. (We don’t need to name names, but we are all aware that certain seminaries in the US would have been, shall we say “a challenge” for a seminarian with a strong orientation towards fidelity to the magisterium and tradition.) To move into such a place and be there 24/7 in such a program is a tad different than what the deacon’s programs are generally like.

Also, bear in mind, some of this that can rest on the shoulders of the priests and deacons of a diocese. What do I mean?

One of my father’s friends loved being a deacon and was always suggesting to my father he pursue it himself. Maybe that is where some of the disconnect is - deacons who are happy in their vocation are doing a better job of “day-to-day” recruitment of the folks with whom they rub shoulders… ***“Hey Bob, consider joining the diaconate - I made a lot of friends in the program, and love the opportunities for service.” ***I have met a lot of deacons who speak highly of the fraternity and comraderie and friendship they have developped in their formation programs - same for the wives.

Are the priests doing a similar job of encouraging men to join them in the priesthood?

 

[Lepanto]

Did some men have a calling to the permanent diaconate prior to its restoration by Vatican II?

Surely they must have, because a Church council can not create a new vocation classification – only God can do that.

If they did, what did those men do about it? How did they resolve their frustration pre-Vatican II? Did 50% get married and 50% stay celibate?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Did some men have a calling to the permanent diaconate prior to its restoration by Vatican II?

Surely they must have, because a Church council can not create a new vocation classification – only God can do that.

If they did, what did those men do about it? How did they resolve their frustration pre-Vatican II? Did 50% get married and 50% stay celibate?

This question seems to rely on a faulty proposition.

What did a man who had a call to be a Jesuit do in 1400?

 

[Lepanto]

This question seems to rely on a faulty proposition.

What did a man who had a call to be a Jesuit do in 1400?

I don’t think that anybody has a “vocation” to be a Jesuit.

Such a man would have had a vocation to the priesthood, in which case there were abundant choices from which to choose in 1400.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I don’t think that anybody has a “vocation” to be a Jesuit.

Such a man would have had a vocation to the priesthood, in which case there were abundant choices from which to choose in 1400.

I disagree.

But I think it is safe to say that the Chuch can avail itself of governance in these matters and disciplines how and where she will. More to the point, she can grant dispensations and rule on the standards of whom she calls to ministry. She may choose to change certain standards.

 

[chicago]

As an ex-seminarian myself (I went to the same one Chicago went to), I will offer this perspective:

Sacramentally, the only things a priest can do that a deacon cannot are consecration of Eucharist and absolution of sins. Additionally, if a permanent deacon’s wife dies, he is to be celibate for the rest of his life (I’ve heard that exceptions can be made if he has small children, but I have no concrete examples of this).

Therefore, I personally think that permanent deacons who are widowers could be an additional source of vocations to the priesthood. In fact, I think I’ve heard of one or two who have travelled that route.

I’d actualy go so far as to entertain the idea of allowing married men with grown children to enter the priesthood.

At that point I think that we’d actually be getting somewhere with making the vocational distinctions more clear.

 

[chicago]

Also, what better way for a young man to be exposed to the beauty and holiness of ordained ministry than to be the son of a deacon…and what deacon would steer his son away from a vocation to the priesthood (unlike many lay parents)? We don’t know that this is not part of God’s plan to replenish the priesthood.

Actually, while I would hope this to be true, I could see it working both ways. Some children of deacons might have excellent exposure and desire to follow along in ministry. Others may run far, far away. Yet others may not feel it important to explore a call to priesthood if they figure they can be both married and deacon.

 

[chicago]

One of my father’s friends loved being a deacon and was always suggesting to my father he pursue it himself. Maybe that is where some of the disconnect is - deacons who are happy in their vocation are doing a better job of “day-to-day” recruitment of the folks with whom they rub shoulders… ***“Hey Bob, consider joining the diaconate - I made a lot of friends in the program, and love the opportunities for service.” ***I have met a lot of deacons who speak highly of the fraternity and comraderie and friendship they have developped in their formation programs - same for the wives.

Are the priests doing a similar job of encouraging men to join them in the priesthood?

I agree and would also note that I think the men in the diaconate are seen as more accessible and real to everyday life to most men. Priests are often placed on such a pedestal and made out to be so separate that anyone who is being invited can’t relate readily to who they are and their way of life. It is almost as if the priest is not “one of us”, to the point that the idea of “joining the club” is made ever more awkward.

 

[maklavan]

As an ex-seminarian myself (I went to the same one Chicago went to), I will offer this perspective:

Sacramentally, the only things a priest can do that a deacon cannot are consecration of Eucharist and absolution of sins. Additionally, if a permanent deacon’s wife dies, he is to be celibate for the rest of his life (I’ve heard that exceptions can be made if he has small children, but I have no concrete examples of this).

Therefore, I personally think that permanent deacons who are widowers could be an additional source of vocations to the priesthood. In fact, I think I’ve heard of one or two who have travelled that route.

Not quite accurate. A deacon cannot do Confirmation, Holy Anointing or Ordination( as a bishop).