Does the Permanent Diaconate harm vocations to the Priesthood?

[maklavan]

having worked in a missionary country. I can assure you that deacons are totally indispensable. The clergy shortage is so acute that the work of deacons is invaluable.I have known deacons preside over 30 burials on the weekend, and an equal number of baptisms.

 

[Woodstock]

Not quite accurate. A deacon cannot do Confirmation, Holy Anointing or Ordination( as a bishop).

In the East, a deacon also may not preside at a wedding, meaning he may not administer any sacraments. In neither may he hear confessions or absolve people of sin.

The eastern deacon has more liturgical functions than his newly revived western counterpart. It hasn’t seemed to hurt priestly vocations or to create all-but-priests in the east.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacon
“In addition to reading the Gospel and assisting in the administration of Holy Communion, the [eastern] deacon censes the icons and people, calls the people to prayer, leads the litanies, and has a role in the dialogue of the Anaphora.”

and

“While the permanent diaconate was maintained from earliest Apostolic times to the present in the Eastern churches (Orthodox and Catholic), it gradually disappeared in the Western church (with a few notable exceptions) during the first millennium. The diaconate continued in a vestigial form as a temporary, final step along the course to ordination to the priesthood. In the 20th Century, the permanent diaconate was restored in many Western churches, most notably in Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion.”

 

[Norseman82]

Not quite accurate. A deacon cannot do Confirmation, Holy Anointing or Ordination( as a bishop).

Well, I was comparing to a priest, not a bishop, but:

1. Confirmation - a priest normally cannot do this either, except in the Easter Vigil, so on the Easter Vigil I think you have me there.
2. Holy Anointing - if it involves confession/absolution of sins, obviously a deacon cannot do this, but if confession/absolution are not administered…does anyone know the answer to this one?
3. Ordination - a priest cannot do this either.

 

[Corki]

Well, I was comparing to a priest, not a bishop, but:

1. Holy Anointing - if it involves confession/absolution of sins, obviously a deacon cannot do this, but if confession/absolution are not administered…does anyone know the answer to this one?

Do you mean the annointing that is part of what used to be called “Last Rites”? No, only a priest (or Bishop) according to the Sacraments class I just finished. A deacon can give Viaticum and say the prayers for the sick, but only a priest can hear final confession, give the Apostolic Blessing and do the annointing.

The deacon in our diocese who claims he has authority to do all of the Last Rites on a death bed notwithstanding.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

The deacon in our diocese who claims he has authority to do all of the Last Rites on a death bed notwithstanding.

…and that is why some diocese have tried to tell deacons they are not to wear clerics…

Oh well, no one said it would be smooth sailing this side of heaven, did they?

 

[Lepanto]

having worked in a missionary country. I can assure you that deacons are totally indispensable. The clergy shortage is so acute that the work of deacons is invaluable.I have known deacons preside over 30 burials on the weekend, and an equal number of baptisms.

I don’t doubt your words, but their indispensability is not at issue.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I’d actualy go so far as to entertain the idea of allowing married men with grown children to enter the priesthood.

Not a terrible idea, if you are content to have a lot of part timers…

I don’t really think it is needed.

 

[chicago]

Not a terrible idea, if you are content to have a lot of part timers…

I don’t really think it is needed.

I should note that I’m a big supporter of a celibate priestly class. So much so that I think there ought to be dedicated celibate elements in other vocational professions, also. Still, if we are going to allow deacons to do a lot of “everything but”, then perhaps we ought to go the whole nine yards, already, at least on some limited basis where it would seem appropriate and the men more free in their lives to give in this way. It might well alleviate some of the present (and coming) crisis in administering sacraments and running parishes, perhaps even enabling a sparking of revival in faith because of additional priests who are able to nurture us and reduce the strain on those pastors who now remain. Of course, the flip side of this is that it might be good to have more deacons working full time for the Church, rather than minsitering only on a part time basis and holding down other jobs.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I should note that I’m a big supporter of a celibate priestly class. So much so that I think there ought to be dedicated celibate elements in other vocational professions, also. Still, if we are going to allow deacons to do a lot of “everything but”, then perhaps we ought to go the whole nine yards, already. Of course, the flip side of this is that it might be good to have more deacons working full time for the Church, rather than minsitering only on a part time basis and holding down other jobs.

I especially agree with the latter-most sentiment.

I really think that the diaconate is only just begining to be understood and utilized. I have seen way too many parishes where the deacon is viewed as a high-ranking altar boy, or the “super-laymam” of sorts… If, in time, we began to use more of the fellas who are in marriages of 20+ years to do more marriage formation and counseling, I think some amazing things could happen. For the record, I don’t really think we have even begun to really understand some of the great things this order can help with in the Church.

 

[beckers]

Well, firstly, understand that you are dialoguing here with a former seminarian. So I understand a little something about discernment and what people go through.

That said, I do think that there is a problem in our day in that most vocations are discerned later in life. This is the main thrust of what I was suggesting. It doesn’t matter whether the vocation is priesthood, religious life, diaconate, or even marriage. Now, that isn’t entirely a “bad” thing, but it does present certain disadvantages.

The reality of the permanent diaconate is that it is, mainly, seen as a “married man’s vocation.” One is left to wonder, therefore, if some of these married men had been open to discerning the possibility of priesthood when younger whether they might have been willing to become priests. (And, from the other side of things, there ARE young men - I know them - who have given the priesthood some thought, and sincerely believed, “If only I could get married AND be a priest,” who ended up leaving the seminary and finding a wife. Not to mention the many men who have left the priesthood to get married.) Therefore, I do believe that the question posed by the OP is legitimate for consideration, at least.

Given, the two vocations are distinct. But, perhaps, that distinction isn’t well enough defined. Why, for instance, aren’t there more permanent deacons who are younger, single men? Typically, they are not even recuited, it would seem; the assumtion being that they ought to just, “Go all the way.”

You are correct, therefore, that there are men who are rightly called to both marriage and the diaconate. But, how many of THOSE men would continue on to the priesthood, if the option were available? In some cases, they are simply, “Going as far as they can go,” with things the way that they are.

My question remains, then, as to whether some of them may have been more open to discerning a priestly call had they considered it earlier in life, before marriage. That isn’t a criticism or challenge of where they are in life and vocation now, or even genuine previous discernment, but a mere sincere pondering, asking “What if?”

I feel as if your saying if only someone had told them more or lead them into deeper discernment then they might have chosen the priesthood if we had “caught” them earlier. Well I don’t think that is true. i think some people just know that they are called to be married and some know that they are called to be priest. The rest of us may be ponders and need a longer time not for discernment but to be mold into people who can truly discern our callings. At the age of 21 when all my friends were getting married i was still trying to grasp being a Godly women. Had I made a decision for marriage or religious i would have made an unwise decision. Now 6 years later i have had deep conversion, my relationship with God is righted and I am able to discern what his vocation is for me.

I think men go through the same thing. I know men who have applied to the seminaries and been turned down because the orders thought they need more growth and deeper discernment and I have known some that have been accepted right out of college and are about to become deacon and then priest in the next two years. I don’t think it is not a matter of “Getting them while their young” but a matter of is that person truly developed and grounded in their faith enough to make a decision for marriage or the priesthood. And that can’t be rushed. Yes you can have a spiritual director to help you but it in the end it is a decision between you and God.

A priest once told me that you have to pray, trust your instincts and make a decision when it comes to your vocation. i guess my biggest issue is that I trust people’s discernment process.

 

[OldRedleg]

If you want to know who are becoming deacons and what they are doing in the United States, this Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) Working Paper was prepared for the Secretariat for the Diaconate of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops in January 2004. The report provides information on the demographics, background characteristics, and current ministry of deacons in the United States using a random sample telephone poll of permanent deacons conducted by CARA in 2001. cara.georgetown.edu/pubs/Working%20Paper%206-Deacons.pdf

Our Archdiocese is just in the beginning phases of having deacons. Our initial class is in it’s first year of candidacy and is partnering with our adjacent diocese (which has had the Diaconate for many years) for the academics. I’m currently an Aspirant in the program.

Looking at the thirty men in the two programs, I believe they fall right in on the statistical norms discussed in the CARA paper.

It is a diverse group of men. Five are retired from the armed forces after serving between 23 to 30 years in the military. Two are dentists. Four currently work in full time jobs in their diocese. We have an elevator inspector, an electrician, a nurse anesthetist, an attorney, accountants, small business owners, and businessmen.

We have each discussed our calling in class and our backgrounds. Of the thirty men in our combined class, only one felt a calling to the priesthood as a young man. And yes, he fell in love with a wonderful woman and got married instead.

With this one exception, all the rest feel that we are answering a call to service to Christ’s Church that has come about late in our lives.

I don’t see any way that the Permanent Diaconate is taking men away from the vocation of the Priesthood. The point has already been made that they are two distinct vocations and I believe God calls men to the Diaconate because of the experience of life that they have already had. It is this very life experience that can be so beneficial to the ministry of service we expect of the Diaconate.

Finally, several of us are actually converts to the Faith. Becoming Priests earlier in life wasn’t even an option. God had to get us to join the Tiber Swim Team first.

 

[chicago]

I feel as if your saying if only someone had told them more or lead them into deeper discernment then they might have chosen the priesthood if we had “caught” them earlier. Well I don’t think that is true. i think some people just know that they are called to be married and some know that they are called to be priest. The rest of us may be ponders and need a longer time not for discernment but to be mold into people who can truly discern our callings. At the age of 21 when all my friends were getting married i was still trying to grasp being a Godly women. Had I made a decision for marriage or religious i would have made an unwise decision. Now 6 years later i have had deep conversion, my relationship with God is righted and I am able to discern what his vocation is for me.

I think men go through the same thing. I know men who have applied to the seminaries and been turned down because the orders thought they need more growth and deeper discernment and I have known some that have been accepted right out of college and are about to become deacon and then priest in the next two years. I don’t think it is not a matter of “Getting them while their young” but a matter of is that person truly developed and grounded in their faith enough to make a decision for marriage or the priesthood. And that can’t be rushed. Yes you can have a spiritual director to help you but it in the end it is a decision between you and God.

A priest once told me that you have to pray, trust your instincts and make a decision when it comes to your vocation. i guess my biggest issue is that I trust people’s discernment process.

I don’t think that you and I are in substantial disagreement. I, especially agree with the statement, “I think some people just know that they are called to be married and some know that they are called to be priest.” Though, even there, it doesn’t always come to fullfillment in the way one would suppose.

Rather, my issue is one of delayed maturity and decision making in life, more generally, which leads to people only considering “call” at a later age in our era. Why is that? And does it not present some real challenges for society and Church? Indeed, ought we not be taking steps to better form people at a younger age such that the consideration of call sooner can take place more often?

The resulting reality, then, is that if men are only considering a call to ordination once married, the only possibility open to them is the diaconate. Were a further option of priesthood available (either due to them being at a place in life to seriously consider it when they were younger and unmarried or if the possibility of making married men priests was opened), how many of the same men would proceed upon this path? Are they becoming deacons because that is the particular and distinct vocation to which they find themselves truly called or because it is as far as they can reasonably go under the circumstances? And, if it is the latter, then we have some very real issues to ponder and, perhaps, resolve.

 

[Woodstock]

I came across this and thought it interesting. It looks like at least one man thought marriage better than wide-spread celibacy and was sainted for it.

Back in the third century A.D. when Emperor Claudius II ruled Rome, the emperor decided that single men made better soldiers than married men, so since he needed an ever ready supply of soldiers to control his far-flung empire, he outlawed marriage for young men.

Along came Valentine, a Christian priest, who felt such a decision was unjust. At the same time the majority of Christians were also pacifist, following the teachings of the early Church, and did not want to serve in Rome’s legions anyway. So Valentine defied the emperor and married many young couples in secret.

When Valentine was discovered, Claudius ordered him arrested and executed. Here the story can get murky, with some believing the sentence was carried out while others suggest he eventually died in prison.

One of the more embroidered bits of the story has Valentine actually sending the first valentine while he was in prison to the jailer’s daughter, who often visited him during his confinement. Not surprising, because in those days priests were usually married.

 

[beckers]

I don’t think that you and I are in substantial disagreement. I, especially agree with the statement, “I think some people just know that they are called to be married and some know that they are called to be priest.” Though, even there, it doesn’t always come to fullfillment in the way one would suppose.

Rather, my issue is one of delayed maturity and decision making in life, more generally, which leads to people only considering “call” at a later age in our era. Why is that? And does it not present some real challenges for society and Church? Indeed, ought we not be taking steps to better form people at a younger age such that the consideration of call sooner can take place more often?

The resulting reality, then, is that if men are only considering a call to ordination once married, the only possibility open to them is the diaconate. Were a further option of priesthood available (either due to them being at a place in life to seriously consider it when they were younger and unmarried or if the possibility of making married men priests was opened), how many of the same men would proceed upon this path? Are they becoming deacons because that is the particular and distinct vocation to which they find themselves truly called or because it is as far as they can reasonably go under the circumstances? And, if it is the latter, then we have some very real issues to ponder and, perhaps, resolve.

I see your point. It is a societal thing. We have pushed and pushed being a “child” for so long. I have tons of friends who are in the mid 20’s who still count on their parents for everything. They expect others to make decisions for them for they don’t know how to be independent. They haven’t learned maturity. It’s the opposite of my grandparents generation who by their 30’s had established households, jobs and had 5 kids by then. I could problem bore you to death since I have a degree in History and social history was my favorite topic.

I am not a man so it’s different. When I discerned religious or marriage vocation it was an either or situation. There was no blending. I can’t be a nun and be married so they decision has to come before. I would assume that men who discern the calling would do they same. I don’t think the deaconate program is pushed as a fall back. I can’t see a vocation director saying “Well if you really feel called to marriage and the religious vocation then get married and then come back in 10years and become a deacon.” Either your called to be a priest or your called to be married. Now later in either vocation you can be solved to serve the church in different ways. Some men get the calling to join the deaconate and some men might get the calling to be youth leaders or something else within the church. It believe it really is a distinct vocation from the priesthood. I also don’t think that by making it an option for priest to be married is going to solve the priest shortage problem.

What is going to solve that is better cathacism as children and raising faithful souls. The problem is that we as a society have turned things around. We are throwing God out of our lives.We also have been focused on instant self-gratification. We have no idea how to work through struggles and to wait. God doesn’t do things on our time. Sometimes the struggles are just as much a blessings as the end solution.

 

[Michael_Saint]

One Catholic radio personality recently said that every young man in his 20s and 30s needs to ask himself if God is calling him to the priesthood.

Corki, which radio personality was that? I have been saying the SAME THING. Actually, I’m one of them - 30 years old, single, though I did spend 2 years in the seminary and was actually pretty close to ordination (2 years from Holy Orders) before I got a serious case of depression and had to withdrawl. Intended to go back, but doors closed - one diocese and one religious order - and the desire just went away.

Anyway, I digress . . . I think if every young man knew the value of the call to celibacy, each and every one of them would consider it. Though most would not be called in the end, most would consider it. The problem is, the Church as a whole is not promoting celibacy - it seems to be glorifying marriage the way that 50 years ago we would glorify the priesthood. This is backwards, I’m afraid.

 

[Corki]

Corki, which radio personality was that? I have been saying the SAME THING.

Anyway, I digress . . . I think if every young man knew the value of the call to celibacy, each and every one of them would consider it. Though most would not be called in the end, most would consider it. The problem is, the Church as a whole is not promoting celibacy - it seems to be glorifying marriage the way that 50 years ago we would glorify the priesthood. This is backwards, I’m afraid.

It was Lino Ruilli, “The Catholic Guy” on the Sirius Catholic Channel. He is my kids favorite drive time listen so I am hoping this is sinking in.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

The eastern deacon has more liturgical functions than his newly revived western counterpart. It hasn’t seemed to hurt priestly vocations or to create all-but-priests in the east.

Actually, in the East, we have seen some our deacons go on to make fine priests. (With wife in tow!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacon
“In addition to reading the Gospel and assisting in the administration of Holy Communion, the [eastern] deacon censes the icons and people, calls the people to prayer, leads the litanies, and has a role in the dialogue of the Anaphora.”

and

“While the permanent diaconate was maintained from earliest Apostolic times to the present in the Eastern churches (Orthodox and Catholic), it gradually disappeared in the Western church (with a few notable exceptions) during the first millennium. The diaconate continued in a vestigial form as a temporary, final step along the course to ordination to the priesthood. In the 20th Century, the permanent diaconate was restored in many Western churches, most notably in Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion.”

Our parish got our first married deacon a year ago. I really can’t imagine or remember how we got along without him. We have another man studying for the deaconate now, and a very likely (say prayers) possible applicant.

Our deacon’s service has been too valuable to describe. Its my sincere hope, in a few years, he considers the priesthood. (Its fun to be Greek Catholic!)

I am all for diaconal growth, and feel that we are only really begining to see the value of their ministry. For too long in the RC they have been treated as glorified servers (“altar men”) when in fact they are clergy in the sacrament of Holy Orders. That is a powerful sacrament that imparts much grace. Some of the preaching I have heard has been phenominal.

Further some of the companionship and friendship they have brought to the priests they serve with at the altar has availed much. In my parish, and many others, the celibate priests are frequent guests in the homes and among the families of deacons. This is a sure comfort and blessing to these priests.

Pray for more deacons! I firmly believe in the the smallest parishes like mine should strive to have at least two.

 

[Lepanto]

Actually, in the East, we have seen some our deacons go on to make fine priests. (With wife in tow!)

Our parish got our first married deacon a year ago. I really can’t imagine or remember how we got along without him. We have another man studying for the deaconate now, and a very likely (say prayers) possible applicant.

Our deacon’s service has been too valuable to describe. Its my sincere hope, in a few years, he considers the priesthood. (Its fun to be Greek Catholic!)

I am all for diaconal growth, and feel that we are only really begining to see the value of their ministry. For too long in the RC they have been treated as glorified servers (“altar men”) when in fact they are clergy in the sacrament of Holy Orders. That is a powerful sacrament that imparts much grace. Some of the preaching I have heard has been phenominal.

Further some of the companionship and friendship they have brought to the priests they serve with at the altar has availed much. In my parish, and many others, the celibate priests are frequent guests in the homes and among the families of deacons. This is a sure comfort and blessing to these priests.

Pray for more deacons! I firmly believe in the the smallest parishes like mine should strive to have at least two.

I agree with everything you said except that the role of a deacon exercising his instituted acolyte faculties (altar server) must never be minimized. It is in fact one of the most important roles that a deacon can fill.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I agree with everything you said except that the role of a deacon exercising his instituted acolyte faculties (altar server) must never be minimized. It is in fact one of the most important roles that a deacon can fill.

Hmm, if that is what you thought I was saying, I must have presented my thoughts poorly…

In fact I don’t wish to minimize the deacon’s ministry at the altar, but rather I get frustrated to hear people who describe or think of deacons as “lay deacons” (a true contradiction in terms) or neglect to consider the mark that Holy Orders leaves on the soul and fancy these gents simply “super-altar boys” of a sort.

My emphisis is on better understanding the Sacramement of Holy Orders and how these men live in and under the grace of the sacrament.

 

[johnnydigit]

proper discernment will lead the person to where they’re supposed to be. the man called to the priesthood just knows (eventually) that the married life is not for him and he will not be his happiest if he marries and become a deacon. the man called to be a deacon just knows (eventually) that he cannot be a priest and be happy.

if they choose one or the other for the wrong reasons, well they will suffer, but God can still draw good out of it.

the only one who knows for sure if a permanent deacon “should have been a priest” is God. let God decide, through each person and through the Church.

besides, i’d rather address the issue of girl altar servers.