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steve-b
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Re: “sister churches” and context
THEN later
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Does the Pope have supreme universal jurisdiction over the Eastern Churches?
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THEN later
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ziapueblo
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Your right. I was speaking to those saints of the first millennium, although, maybe even then there could be some that are not venerated by both Churches. However, we do have Saint Gregory Palamas on our calendar.
ZP
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ziapueblo
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You have referenced this document several times and the last paragraph is interesting, “12. Finally, it must also be borne in mind that the expression sister Churches in the proper sense, as attested by the common Tradition of East and West, may only be used for those ecclesial communities that have preserved a valid Episcopate and Eucharist.”
So a sister Church is one who’s “ecclesial communities have preserved a valid Episcopate and Eucharist.” Let’s look at the Second Vatican Councils Decree on Ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, “These Churches, although separated from us, possess true sacraments, above all by apostolic succession, the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are linked with us in closest intimacy. Therefore some worship in common (communicatio in sacris), given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not only possible but to be encouraged.”
This Decree on Ecumenism states that the Churches of the East who are not in communion with Rome possess “apostolic succession” and “the Eucharist.” According to the document you referenced, what make a Church a sister Church(?), " . . . those ecclesial communities that have preserved a valid Episcopate and Eucharist."
ZP
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steve-b
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ANDsteve-b:
You have referenced this document several times and the last paragraph is interesting, “12. Finally, it must also be borne in mind that the expression sister Churches in the proper sense, as attested by the common Tradition of East and West, may only be used for those ecclesial communities that have preserved a valid Episcopate and Eucharist.”
So a sister Church is one who’s “ecclesial communities have preserved a valid Episcopate and Eucharist.” Let’s look at the Second Vatican Councils Decree on Ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, “These Churches, although separated from us, possess true sacraments, above all by apostolic succession, the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are linked with us in closest intimacy. Therefore some worship in common (communicatio in sacris), given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not only possible but to be encouraged.”
This Decree on Ecumenism states that the Churches of the East who are not in communion with Rome possess “apostolic succession” and “the Eucharist.” According to the document you referenced, what make a Church a sister Church(?), " . . . those ecclesial communities that have preserved a valid Episcopate and Eucharist."
ZP
the 2nd link which you didn’t mention, was given for clarification.
“when it is a question of the principles on which to build unity, … the [Universal Catholic] Church [3] cannot be considered a sister [e.g. to the Orthodox Churches (2)], but rather the Mother of the local Churches.”
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ziapueblo
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The Note on the Expression Sister Churches sought to make more precise the conditions under which the use of the term is appropriate. The Note said that it is possible for individual local churches (dioceses) to refer to each other as sister Churches. It is appropriate then for Popes and Ecumenical Patriarchs to refer to each other as heading sister Churches which in this case are the diocese of Rome and the diocese of Constantinople. In is not possible for the Catholic Church as a whole to refer to the Orthodox as a whole as sister Churches.
So the Orthodox are still sister Churches when speaking of local Churches.
ZP
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steve-b
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From the “Notes” (footnotes operational)
(all emphasis mine)
“It must always be clear, when the expression sister Churches is used in this proper sense, that the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Universal Church is not sister but mother of all the particular Churches.[8]”
“11. One may also speak of sister Churches, in a proper sense, in reference to particular Catholic and non-catholic Churches; thus the particular Church of Rome can also be called the sister of all other particular Churches. However, as recalled above, one cannot properly say that the Catholic Church is the sister of a particular Church or group of Churches. This is not merely a question of terminology, but above all of respecting a basic truth of the Catholic faith: that of the unicity of the Church of Jesus Christ. In fact, there is but a single Church,[9] and therefore the plural term Churches can refer only to particular Churches.”
“Consequently, one should avoid, as a source of misunderstanding and theological confusion, the use of formulations such as « our two Churches ,» which, if applied to the Catholic Church and the totality of Orthodox Churches (or a single Orthodox Church), imply a plurality not merely on the level of particular Churches, but also on the level of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church confessed in the Creed, whose real existence is thus obscured.”
(all emphasis mine)
“It must always be clear, when the expression sister Churches is used in this proper sense, that the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Universal Church is not sister but mother of all the particular Churches.[8]”
“11. One may also speak of sister Churches, in a proper sense, in reference to particular Catholic and non-catholic Churches; thus the particular Church of Rome can also be called the sister of all other particular Churches. However, as recalled above, one cannot properly say that the Catholic Church is the sister of a particular Church or group of Churches. This is not merely a question of terminology, but above all of respecting a basic truth of the Catholic faith: that of the unicity of the Church of Jesus Christ. In fact, there is but a single Church,[9] and therefore the plural term Churches can refer only to particular Churches.”
“Consequently, one should avoid, as a source of misunderstanding and theological confusion, the use of formulations such as « our two Churches ,» which, if applied to the Catholic Church and the totality of Orthodox Churches (or a single Orthodox Church), imply a plurality not merely on the level of particular Churches, but also on the level of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church confessed in the Creed, whose real existence is thus obscured.”
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ziapueblo
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Yes, the Catholic Church as a whole but at the local level the expression sister Churches may be used. Here is the sentence just before the one of which you quoted, “10. In fact, in the proper sense, sister Churches are exclusively particular Churches (or groupings of particular Churches; for example, the Patriarchates or Metropolitan provinces) among themselves.”
There are two examples of this in the document. First, “Therefore, there prevailed and still prevails among Eastern Christians an eager desire to perpetuate in a communion of faith and charity those family ties which ought to exist between local Churches, as between sisters.»” and, " 7. The first papal document in which the term sisters is applied to the Churches is the Apostolic Brief Anno ineunte of Paul VI to the Patriarch Athenagoras I. After having indicated his willingness to do everything possible to «re-establish full communion between the Church of the West and that of the East,» the Pope asked: «Since this mystery of divine love is at work in every local Church, is not this the reason for the traditional expression “sister Churches,” which the Churches of various places used for one another? For centuries our Churches (Rome and Constantinople) lived in this way like sisters, celebrating together the ecumenical councils which defended the deposit of faith against all corruption. Now, after a long period of division and mutual misunderstanding, the Lord, in spite of the obstacles which arose between us in the past, gives us the possibility of rediscovering ourselves as sister Churches.»
So, the Pope, as the bishop of the diocese of Rome and the Ecumenical Patriarch, as the bishop of Constantinople, can refer to each other as heading sister Church.
ZP
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steve-b
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So there is no confusion, note the following is a quote. (emphasis mine)steve-b:
Yes, the Catholic Church as a whole but at the local level the expression sister Churches may be used. Here is the sentence just before the one of which you quoted, “10. In fact, in the proper sense, sister Churches are exclusively particular Churches (or groupings of particular Churches; for example, the Patriarchates or Metropolitan provinces) among themselves.”
There are two examples of this in the document. First, “Therefore, there prevailed and still prevails among Eastern Christians an eager desire to perpetuate in a communion of faith and charity those family ties which ought to exist between local Churches, as between sisters.»” and, " 7. The first papal document in which the term sisters is applied to the Churches is the Apostolic Brief Anno ineunte of Paul VI to the Patriarch Athenagoras I. After having indicated his willingness to do everything possible to «re-establish full communion between the Church of the West and that of the East,» the Pope asked: «Since this mystery of divine love is at work in every local Church, is not this the reason for the traditional expression “sister Churches,” which the Churches of various places used for one another? For centuries our Churches (Rome and Constantinople) lived in this way like sisters, celebrating together the ecumenical councils which defended the deposit of faith against all corruption. Now, after a long period of division and mutual misunderstanding, the Lord, in spite of the obstacles which arose between us in the past, gives us the possibility of rediscovering ourselves as sister Churches.»
So, the Pope, as the bishop of the diocese of Rome and the Ecumenical Patriarch, as the bishop of Constantinople, can refer to each other as heading sister Church.
ZP
“However, as recalled above, one cannot properly say that the Catholic Church is the sister of a particular Church or group of Churches. This is not merely a question of terminology, but above all of respecting a basic truth of the Catholic faith: that of the unicity of the Church of Jesus Christ. In fact, there is but a single Church,[9]”
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twf
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Typically, what one really means, I would think, is that the Latin Church, which is a particular Church within the Catholic Church, and any given Orthodox Church, are sister churches. The Latin Church and the various Eastern Catholic Churches are sister Churches in full communion with, and thus comprising the Catholic Church. The various Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches are sister Churches in an imperfect communion with the same Catholic Church.
98% of Catholics are members of the Latin Church, so we often get lazy and conflate the Catholic Church and the particular Church to which most Catholics belong.
98% of Catholics are members of the Latin Church, so we often get lazy and conflate the Catholic Church and the particular Church to which most Catholics belong.
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AlNg
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As I already pointed out, that is not their official name. It is like saying show me where as going back to the 1st century on, quote from sources to show where the name Vatican Church first appears in history, properly referenced,. I don’t see anyone using the name Vatican Church, so the Church of Pope Francis in the Vatican, cannot be the true religion.
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steve-b
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steve-b
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I asked for the name “Orthodox Church”, in writing.steve-b:
As I already pointed out, that is not their official name. It is like saying show me where as going back to the 1st century on, quote from sources to show where the name Vatican Church first appears in history, properly referenced,. I don’t see anyone using the name Vatican Church, so the Church of Pope Francis in the Vatican, cannot be the true religion.
I can show with evidence, where and when the name “Catholic Church” is seen in writing.
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AlNg
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Yes. And in spite of the disunity there, I believe that you can still have people who have virtue in the Russian Orthodox Church and in the Greek Orthodox Church. IOW, as pointed out above, IMHO the CCC is wrong when it declares that
" Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity ,
Your example of the one way RO and GO schism is an example of where virtue may exist, even though you do not have complete unity.
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MichaelP3
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About 2 years ago I asked about the Egyptians as well. Today we have Egyptians even in the Bible… we should probably think they are the same today because of the “names”…
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AlNg
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You can ask for whatever you want, but that is not their official name. It is like someone saying: I asked for the name “Vatican Church” in writing.
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AlNg
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Why did the Catholic authorities excommunicate His Holiness Michael Cerularius and all his followers, citing the fact that they omit the filioque from the creed and that they allow married clergy? If the RC and the EO are truly loving sister churches, it seems that the RC Church would not object to the EO having married clergy and would not excommunicate them mentioning that issue as a reason.
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steve-b
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Speaking of virtue,steve-b:
Yes. And in spite of the disunity there, I believe that you can still have people who have virtue in the Russian Orthodox Church and in the Greek Orthodox Church. IOW, as pointed out above, IMHO the CCC is wrong when it declares that
" Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity ,
Your example of the one way RO and GO schism is an example of where virtue may exist, even though you do not have complete unity.
Those in complete union with the successor to St Peter are by definition one in the Catholic Church, because that means in extension, they are in union with all those in union with the Chair of Peter as well. I’d say that’s virtuous.
unity with Peter and his successors and everyone united with them is the prayer of Jesus. That’s what He wants. “Perfect” unity. I’d say that’s virtuous
Therefore
can you show me where schism is approved in scripture?
What’s the consequences for those who die in that sin?
what does that sin do to virtue in the individual?
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twf
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You’re talking about events that occurred a thousand years ago. There are plenty of married clergy within the Catholic Church today.
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twf
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I see no contradiction. The Latin Church is a particular church. Each Orthodox Church is a particular church. These particular churches are sister churches.
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Isaac14
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You’ve already kindly and gently provided the quotes above that reveal me and all my fellow Orthodox Christians are condemned to hell.
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