Does the Pope Sin?

[pablope]

According to the dicitionary, ‘representative, deputy or substitute’

When we go to the bible Jesus makes it clear that the substitute in His absence is the Holy Spirit (John 14).

Christ is the Head of the Church correct?

No…He sends the Holy Spirit to guide…16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.

But whom does the HS guide? Does the HS guide all of us the same way?

 

[Jeanne_S]

Jesus left a line of authority on earth. He knew that it would be needed. If left to ourselves, we would be all over the place with our own ideas about what to believe and all that. So, Jesus left a line of defense.

In other words,the some 40,0000protestant faiths,all claiming to have the truth

 

[Goya]

According to the dicitionary, ‘representative, deputy or substitute’

When we go to the bible Jesus makes it clear that the substitute in His absence is the Holy Spirit (John 14).

Christ is the Head of the Church correct?

Christ left us a Church, comprised of the Apostles, and the paraclete to guide them and their successors.

(NB: Christ did not leave us a Bible; the Holy Spirit through Sacred Tradition, and Chirst’s Church, guided the Church to assembling and preserving the Bible–no mention of the Bible substituting the Church, until Martin Luther came along).

The paraclete (i.e.–Holy Spirit) has further guided Sacred Tradition, yielding that magnificent spectacle you surely witnessed today (which probably brought you here)…

…and further yielding that awesome selection of…

Pope Francis I, successor to the Bishopric of St. Peter, and Vicar of Christ.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[johnnyc176]

All it would have taken was one apostle saying, “Hey, Pete, get your head out of the clouds! Who made you boss?”

lol…and then said apostle would have went off to find another church.

 

[mymamamary]

Ephesians 2:19-20
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone

None of Jesus’ discples had any authority to do anything on their own.
All of the glory goes to Christ. Christ is the Head of the Church, not Peter. Don’t you agree?

My million dollar question:

Where is sola scriptura in the bible?

 

[bobbyhillisabro]

The pope has infallibility, not impeccability. And he is only infallible while speaking ex-cathedra and it must be on the subject of faith or morality. Any where else, any other time, any other topic he is fallible. I believe the pope goes to confession every week?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Christ spoke the following to a specific audience, His apostles and not the multitudes. They were those He chose and appointed.

**Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” **

When reading John, notice the specific audience being addressed, starting at chapter 13 and on.

**Joh 15:16 You have not chosen me: but I have chosen you; and have appointed you, that you should go and should bring forth fruit; and your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. **

All those men, that He chose and appointed, were sinners.

 

[Steve_Jay]

We are all representatives of Christ correct?
What makes the pope any different?
I’m afraid I disagree. If there’s a distinction between ‘representatives of Christ’ which I can’t find in the bible, I just can’t see why you believe that.

Hello
Last year on May 21st. Jesus failed to return as “prophesied” by one Harold Camping. As a result, a lot of people were left with dreadful debts having given their all to Harold Camping. Then there were the many whose faith was left in tatters. Then there were those who even committed suicide. That’s just one little cult that went global. It should be clear then that it isn’t everyone who is listening to the Holy Spirit for guidance.
That’s an example of why God has been giving successors of St.Peter to the world for 2,000 years. Correct guidance in feeding the sheep as good shepherds.
There is power in prayer and Cardinals pray for guidance when electing a new pope.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The following is from notes compiled over the years, and saved on my computer. I think it pertains to some of your concerns. I emphasized a portion towards the end.

Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Caesarea Philippi is a mountain, which primarily consisted of a massive rock. Originally, Caesarea Philippi was Panion, the city of the Greek God Pan. Pan was the God of shepherds and flocks, among other things. It was believed by people of the time of Christ and before, that there was an entrance to a great abyss, or hades/hell, located in the mountain.

Panion had statues of Zeus, as well as Pan, on this pagan holy place.

Why, of all places, did Christ choose Caesarea Philippi, so named Caesarea in honour of Caesar Augustus? Herod the Great, Herod Philip, had built a temple to Augustus there. This place, where men worshipped side by side the forces of nature and political power, was the place chosen by our Lord. The same place His divinity was professed by Peter.

It was not chance, it was meaningful. The place that had kept men from the kingdom of heaven was chosen by our Lord to be the place where He announced His Church that would bring men to the kingdom of heaven.

This was the place He re-named Simon, Kipha, rock, Peter. This was the place He said He would give the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven to Peter. The same place He stated, “…and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

Name changes in the Bible were significant. Name changes in the Old Testament always included explanations. Abram becomes Abraham because God will make of him a great nation. Jacob becomes Israel because he contended and had power with God and with men and prevailed.

Simon becomes Peter, Kipha/rock, because his strength of faith would have Christ’s Church built upon it.

**To understand the symbolism of the “keys”, I suggest reading the passage containing Isaiah 22:22.

Isa 22:22 And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open.

1Chron 9 details the specifics of the keys.

The person who was designated as the keeper of the keys was the “right hand man” of the king. He literally sat at the right hand of the king’s throne.

1Ch 29:23 And Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king instead of David his father, and he pleased all: and all Israel obeyed him.

The keeper of the keys serves as prime minister to the King. He sits upon the earthly throne…until Christ returns.**

 

[adrift]

Ephesians 2:19-20
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone

None of Jesus’ discples had any authority to do anything on their own.
All of the glory goes to Christ. Christ is the Head of the Church, not Peter. Don’t you agree?

18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Explain why Jesus changed Peter’s name?
Explain why Jesus gave the Keys to Peter which gave authority to him to bound and loosen?

 

[LilyM]

Vicar, as by definition, is a representative. So by “Vicar of Christ” he means that the Pope is like Christ. Therefore, he has no sin. But, he does sin. No one here on Earth is perfect. We all sin and we all NEED to go to confession.

Hit two birds with that stone, haha.

Not at all. Our country, Australia, has the Queen of England as our head of state.

Her deputy in this country, her vicar if you will, is our Governor-General.

Apart from having some (not all) of the same powers, and at present both being women, the Queen and our GG have nothing in common. Our GG is not royal, nor British, nor did the GG inherit her role from her father as the Queen did.

 

[ChristCrucified]

No, it is not. We are all called to emulate Christ as we strive to follow His teachings, but only the Pope is Christ’s representative on Earth, that is, only the Pope speaks for Christ.

1 John 4:13
By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

No what’s not?

If you are a born again Christian, the Holy Spirit dwells within you.
Why do you think that the Holy Spirit only dwells withing the Pope?
Also, if we all have the bible (God’s Word), we can speak for Christ because we know His word correct?

Feel free to start new threads on these topics b/c forum rules require one topic per thread. this is a tangential topic, so it should be on its own thread.

Thanks for the info.
If I can respond, you never really pointed out a difference so it’s safe to say there is none correct?

Not all in the same manner. While all one body, we are indeed many parts.

That doesn’t equate to some parts being lesser than others though as Christ is the head. We are the body (1 Corinthians 12)

The authority given to him by God, through his Church.

Christ is the Head of the church. The body of the church (that would include the pope for catholics) are under the Head. There is no partiality.

The verse I cited doesn’t say anything about glory going to Peter and his successors. Peter is the rock on which Jesus built his Church. He {Peter} is the most prominent apostle. Jesus gave his apostles authority {with Peter having top authority}. Is it by some power of their own? Of course not! {How silly! } Yes, it’s from God because it was given to them by God.

Jesus Christ is the cornerstone. The Holy Spirit is the Substitute in Christ’s absence.
Christ is the Head. The authority Peter had was no different from the authority all of the disciples had.

John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Jesus left a line of authority on earth.

He Left The Holy Spirit.

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

But who speaks for Christ here on earth? When you have a question of faith and morals, to whom would you go to?

Good Question.
I go to God’s Word (The Bible).
Jesus Christ is The Word - John 1:1
Jesus Christ says " “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

But whom does the HS guide? Does the HS guide all of us the same way?

We all have different gifts and talents by the grace of God. We are the bride. Christ is the bridegroom who will come back for us upon His second coming.
By no means is one part of the body greater or lesser than the other. (1 Corinthians 12)

In other words,the some 40,0000protestant faiths,all claiming to have the truth

1 Corinthians 12:4
*There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. *

This verse completely contradicts the claim that the RCC is the ‘church’ one must be under to be saved. Why Catholics argue this point makes no sense either when scripture is very clear that their position is wrong on this matter. But there’s more where that came from. Don’t want to derail.

 

[ChristCrucified]

Christ spoke the following to a specific audience, His apostles and not the multitudes. They were those He chose and appointed.

When reading John, notice the specific audience being addressed, starting at chapter 13 and on.

All those men, that He chose and appointed, were sinners.

Yes, this doesn’t just apply to the disciples mind you.
We never chose Christ either. God chose us!

Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Hello
Last year on May 21st. Jesus failed to return as “prophesied” by one Harold Camping. As a result, a lot of people were left with dreadful debts having given their all to Harold Camping. Then there were the many whose faith was left in tatters. Then there were those who even committed suicide. That’s just one little cult that went global. It should be clear then that it isn’t everyone who is listening to the Holy Spirit for guidance.
That’s an example of why God has been giving successors of St.Peter to the world for 2,000 years. Correct guidance in feeding the sheep as good shepherds.
There is power in prayer and Cardinals pray for guidance when electing a new pope.

That’s not a valid reason to cling to the idea of popes and cardinals. One could look at the scandals around the RCC and conclude the same thing. How do we know when God’s word is being preached? When it lines up with scripture, God’s Word.

Acts 17:11
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

Jesus said himself no one knows the day or hour.
When people continue to put man’s word before God’s, you will always get the same tragic results.

Explain why Jesus changed Peter’s name?
Explain why Jesus gave the Keys to Peter which gave authority to him to bound and loosen?

Paul’s name was changed as well. Not by man’s doing, but God.
Abraham, Jacob as well. In fact, you can go all throughout the bible and see this. The verse you’re quoting (Ephesians 2) even addresses this. What’s the problem? They all had authority under Christ. Why? Faith and the Grace of God.

 

[snarflemike]

Christ is the Head of the church. The body of the church (that would include the pope for catholics) are under the Head. There is no partiality.

That is highly unscriptural!

14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single organ, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

Is it your belief that the apostles were no different in any manner from other believers?

 

[Evan]

John 14:26
I go to God’s Word (The Bible).
Jesus Christ is The Word - John 1:1
Jesus Christ says " “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

1 Tim 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Yes, this doesn’t just apply to the disciples mind you.
We never chose Christ either. God chose us!

Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love.

Then why did Christ speak different things to the men He chose and appointed, and the multitudes?

Why did He speak parables to the multitude, but explain all things to the men He chose and appointed?

Mar 4:34 And without parable he did not speak unto them; but apart, he explained all things to his disciples.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

1 Tim 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Here’s another one…

Eph 3:10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Yes, this doesn’t just apply to the disciples mind you.
We never chose Christ either. God chose us!

I was wondering why you did address the renaming of Simon, or the Hebrew understanding of the keys when Christ gave the keys to Peter?

 

[Church_Militant]

1 John 4:13

By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

No what’s not?

If you are a born again Christian, the Holy Spirit dwells within you.No problem here. That is Catholic teaching.

Why do you think that the Holy Spirit only

dwells withing the Pope? Where do you see that asserted by any of us? You don’t…so please don’t sit there and misinterpret what we tell you. We say what we mean. As does the Church.

Also, if we all have the bible (God’s Word), we can speak for Christ because we know His word correct?

Just because one has a Bible in hand does not mean that what one preaches is authentic Christian doctrine. For example, the n-C doctrine of Sola Scriptura is a fundamental error that actually is not found in the Word of God.
(See the following threads:

•                                                                                                                      ["If anyone teaches/preaches something that is not in scripture"](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=613009)

• It’s NOT in the Bible, okay?
• It’s NOT in the Bible, okay? (Part II)

That doesn’t equate to some parts being lesser than others though as Christ is the head

. We are the body (1 Corinthians 12)According to your own interpretation, but Hebrews 13:17 says " Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you." and James 3:1 says "Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness. ".

Christ is the Head of the church. The body of the church (that would include the pope for Catholics) are under the Head

. There is no partiality.That’s not what the above verses tell us.

Jesus Christ is the cornerstone. The Holy Spirit is the Substitute in Christ’s absence.
Christ is the Head. The authority Peter had was no different from the authority all of the disciples had.

John 20:22

*And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.*You really shouldn’t cherry pick outside the context of the Word of God like that. Here’s what the passage actually says.
"21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

How do you reconcile the clear statement that Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ makes there telling us that he has given His church the commission and power to forgive or retain sins? Catholic teaching has always been that we all receive the Holy Spirit and that some, by virtue of their obedience and commitment to Our Lord are more filled with the Holy Spirit than others, which is what the New Testament (and in fact, the whole Bible) teaches.

He Left The Holy Spirit

.

John 14:26
*But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.*Again, context is everything. Take note.
21 He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him." 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me. 25 "These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. 28 You heard me say to you, `I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place, you may believe.
(Cont’d)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

He Left The Holy Spirit.

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Specific instructions, spoken ONLY to the Apostles. No one else was present, and he said, ‘…bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.’ He was not promising to remind those who He had not spoken too.