Does the RCC teach that non-Catholic Christians are anathema?

[ralphy]

Please show me where the pope says that we are to be called the Roman Catholic Church and not the Catholic Church.

Also, why is this ministry allowed to exist and call itself Catholic Answers, ralphy?

I will ask a simple question. Is the church that is run by Rome the RCC or is it not. In Chirstian love, Ralph.

 

[ralphy]

Here’s a quote for you, ralphy, from papalencylicals.net: (bold mine)

“We define” (declare the Fathers of the Council of Florence) “that the Holy and Apostolic See and the** Roman Pontiff hold the primacy of the Church throughout the whole world: and that the same Roman Pontiff is the successor of St. Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, and the true Vicar of Christ, the head of the whole Church**, and the father and teacher of all Christians; and that full power was given to him, in Blessed Peter, by our Lord Jesus Christ to feed, to rule, and to govern the universal Church, as is also contained in the acts of ecumenical councils and in the sacred canons” (Conc. Florentinum). Similarly the Fourth Council of Lateran declares: “The Roman Church, as the mother and mistress of all the faithful, by the will of Christ obtains primacy of jurisdiction over all other Churches.” These declarations were preceded by the consent of antiquity which ever acknowledged, without the slightest doubt or hesitation, the Bishops of Rome, and revered them, as the legitimate successors of St. Peter.

Who is unaware of the many and evident testimonies of the holy Fathers which exist to this effect? Most remarkable is that of St. Irenaeus who, referring to the Roman Church, says: “With this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, it is necessary that every Church should be in concord” (Contra Haereses, lib. iii., cap. 3, n. 2); and St. Cyprian also says of the Roman Church, that “it is the root and mother of the Catholic Church, the chair of Peter, and the principal Church whence sacerdotal unity has its source” (Ep. xlviii., ad Cornelium, n. 3. and Ep. lix., ad eundem, n. 14). He calls it the chair of Peter because it is occupied by the successor of Peter: he calls it the principal Church, on account of the primacy conferred on Peter himself and his legitimate successors; and the source of unity, because the Roman Church is the efficient cause of unity in the Christian commonwealth. For this reason Jerome addresses Damasus thus: “My words are spoken to the successor of the Fisherman, to the disciple of the Cross…I communicate with none save your Blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this I know is the rock on which the Church is built” (Ep. xv., ad Damasum, n. 2). **Union with the Roman See of Peter is to him always the public criterion of a Catholic. **“I acknowledge everyone who is united with the See of Peter” (Ep. xvi., ad Damasum, n. 2). And for a like reason St. Augustine publicly attests that, “the primacy of the Apostolic chair always existed in the Roman Church” (Ep. xliii., n. 7); and he denies that anyone who dissents from the Roman faith can be a Catholic. “**You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held” **(Sermo cxx., n. 13). So, too, St. Cyprian: “To be in communion with Cornelius is to be in communion with the Catholic Church” (Ep. Iv., n. 1). In the same way Maximus the Abbot teaches that obedience to the Roman Pontiff is the proof of the true faith and of legitimate communion. Therefore if a man does not want to be, or to be called, a heretic, let him not strive to please this or that man…but let him hasten before all things **to be in communion with the Roman See. **If he be in communion with it, he should be acknowledged by all and everywhere as faithful and orthodox. He speaks in vain who tries to persuade me of the orthodoxy of those who, like himself, refuse obedience to his Holiness the Pope of the most holy Church of Rome: that is to the Apostolic See." The reason and motive of this he explains to be that “the Apostolic See has received and hath government, authority, and power of binding and loosing from the Incarnate Word Himself; and, according to all holy synods, sacred canons and decrees, in all things and through all things, in respect of all the holy churches of God throughout the whole world, since the Word in Heaven who rules the Heavenly powers binds and loosens there” (Defloratio ex Epistola ad Petrum illustrem).

I did not see any sign of scripture in this long statement. This is simply RCC talking about themselves, and issuing authority to themselves. I cannot imagine that anyone could swallow that self appointed type of authority, and live by it without asking any questions. Where I come from this is called “being gullible”, like the police department investigating themselves. I see no “authority” of God in it. In Christian love, Ralph.

 

[PRmerger]

I did not see any sign of scripture in this long statement.

Well, ralphy, I haven’t seen Scripture in lots of your statements, either. Is that a fair statement?

This is simply RCC talking about themselves, and issuing authority to themselves. I cannot imagine that anyone could swallow that self appointed type of authority, and live by it without asking any questions. Where I come from this is called “being gullible”, like the police department investigating themselves. I see no “authority” of God in it. In Christian love, Ralph.

Oh, the irony. Each time you quote Scripture, ralphy, you are attesting to the authority of the CC!

 

[PRmerger]

I will ask a simple question. Is the church that is run by Rome the RCC or is it not. In Chirstian love, Ralph.

Yes, it is, ralphy.

It is the Catholic church, formally known as the Latin rite. The Roman pontiff, Pope B16, is the visible head of Christ’s body.

The Church is run by the Holy Spirit, BTW.

 

[ralphy]

Yes, it is, ralphy.

It is the Catholic church, formally known as the Latin rite. The Roman pontiff, Pope B16, is the visible head of Christ’s body.

The Church is run by the Holy Spirit, BTW.

The obvious and logical conclusion then is, that you are RC. In Christian love, Ralph.

 

[PRmerger]

The obvious and logical conclusion then is, that you are RC. In Christian love, Ralph.

LOL!

I have had “Roman Catholic” listed as my religion since I first joined the Catholic Answers Forums, ralphy.



Also, I noticed you didn’t use any Scripture in the above post. Nor the post before that?

 

[jlhargus]

Do you honestly believe that water can take away sin,

JL: The Gentile Syrian General Naaman 2Kings5:1-26. Who was a leper was told by Elisha the prophet of Israel to bath seven times in the Jordan. Naaman was angry and said, are not the rivers of Damascus just as good, can’t I be cleansed in them? He started to return to Syria, when one of his servants said, if the prophet had said to do something difficult would you not have done. Naaman went to the Jordan and bathed seven times and he was CLEANSED of his leprosy (sin), his skin became as A NEW BORN (born again a new creation). The water of the Jordan River has no power, it was the Holy Spirit ACTING thru that WATER, the Holy Spirit would not have ACTED thru a Syrian river. When Naaman did as instructed by the prophet of Israel, the Holy Spirit ACTED and the water accomplishes what God ordained. Just as in the sacraments Christ has given to his people. Had Naaman went to a river in Syria he would have remained a leper. Point is we must do it God’s way not our way.

Ask yourself, would Naaman’s skin have been regenerated had he not went to the WATER of the Jordan river AND bathed seven times, with the INTENTION of doing God’s will, as told by the prophet Elisha? Answer No.

Why wasn’t the WATER of the rivers of his country good enough, after all water is water? Answer, God designated or ordained the WATER of the Jordan river AND bathing seven times, thru which HE (God) would act in union with that water of the Jordan, giving the GRACE of regenerating Naaman’s skin. In Christ’s circumcision of the heart, Christian Baptism, God now ordaines any WATER AND the words in the NAME OF the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, with the INTENTION of doing God’s will, thru which HE will act and give GRACE to remit and WASH away our sins thru the blood of Christ. Do you think Peter walked on water, on his own, or thru the power of God acting THRU HIM? Water is only water and words are only words, but when God acts thru those signs it becomes a sacrament. A sacrament is a an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.

 

[jlhargus]

Do you honestly believe that water can take away sin, I do not see that stated anywhere in scripture, can you show me where I can find it…

JL: Yes when it is BOTH WATER and the SPIRIT in the sacrament of baptism. That’s HOW SINS ARE WASHED AWAY and one is BORN AGAIN a child of God, as Christ tells us in Jn3:5. I suggest you read all the scriptures. You have yet to SHOW ME one scripture that baptism only indicates one accepts Christ as savoir.

No one said water alone washes away sins. But the sacrament of baptism thur water AND the Spirit does take away sin. I will start with a couple OT prophets who foretold Christ’s baptism. Ezek36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean WATER upon you, and YE SHALL BE CLEAN: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Zech13:1 IN THAT DAY THERE SHALL BE A FOUNTAIN OPENED TO THE HOUSE OF DAVID and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem FOR SIN AND for UNCLEANNESS.

[Col 2:9 For IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY. 10 And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 IN WHOM also YE ARE CIRCUMCISED with THE CIRCUMCISION MADE WITHOUT HANDS, in **PUTTING OFF THE BODY OF SINS OF THE FLESH BY THE CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST: 12 buried with him in BAPTISM, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, BEING DEAD IN YOUR SINS AND THE UNCIRCUMCISION OF YOUR FLESH, hath he QUICKENED together WITH HIM, having FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES; 14 BLOTTING OUT the handwriting of ORDINANCES that was AGAINST US, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, NAILING IT TO HIS CROSS;]

[Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and **BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE THE gift of the HOLY GHOST.]

[Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and **BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.]

The Holy Spirit ACTS through ORDINARY WATER and the word, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Baptism is a, NECESSARY, part of the process OF SALVATION. Water is the SIGN, with the words, in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, THROUGH WHICH the Holy Spirit ACTS, as God ordained. Making the baptized a new creation, BORN AGAIN, by water AND of the Holy Spirit, WASHING AWAY OUR SINS. Giving to the REPENTANT REMISSION OF SINS and the GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, as the above scriptures CLEARLY tell us.

ACTS 19:1 And it came to pass that, while Apollos was at Corinth Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus and FINDING certain DISCIPLES 2 HE SAID unto them HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him WE HAVE NOT SO MUCH AS HEARD whether THERE BE ANY HOLY GHOST 3 And HE SAID unto them UNTO WHAT then WERE YE BAPTIZED? And THEY SAID UNTO JOHN’S BAPTISM 4 Then said Paul, JOHN verily BAPTIZED WITH the BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE SAYING unto the people that they should BELIEVE ON HIM WHICH should COME AFTER HIM that is ON CHRIST JESUS 5 When they heard this THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS

Evidently more is needed than BELIEF and faith in Christ, to be born again, because John’s baptism of WATER, was of repentance, believing or having faith in the one to come, Christ. They needed the sacrament of Christian baptism to be born again by water AND the Spirit. The Holy Spirit and Christian water baptism go hand and hand else why would Paul ask about baptism when he found they had not RECEIVED or even heard of the Holy Spirit? We receive the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit, in the sacrament of Christ’s baptism

 

[jlhargus]

JL: What happened?

 

[jlhargus]

God will judge us by His word and nothing else, that’s why He left His word with us, it will not change.

JL: Scripture tells us we will be judged by our works.

Hb5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto ALL them that OBEY him

Rev 22:12 And, behold I come quickly and my reward is with me to give every man according as his work shall be

2Cor5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that every one may receive** the things done in his body according to that he hath done whether it be GOOD OR BAD

1Pt1:17 And if ye call on the Father who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work pass the time of your sojourning here in fear

Mt7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven

Mt7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and DOETH them I will liken him unto a wise man which built his house upon a rock

Mt16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and THEIR WORKS DO FOLLOW THEM.

Rms2:6 Who will render to every man according to his DEEDS: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:

Rms2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that DOETH evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, TO EVERY MAN THAT WORKETH GOOD, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

And no the Church does NOT teach we are saved by works, we are saved by GRACE. Works are the fruit of a living faith, without works faith is dead and dead faith cannot save. Works are part of the process of salvation, just as are faith, hope, charity, repentance and the sacraments etc., but the greatest of these is charity, we will be JUDGED by our charitable or uncharitable deeds, according to scripture.
Jms 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, IF IT HATH NOT WORKS, is dead, being alone. [KJV above]**

 

[jlhargus]

Can you see what I am trying to say by using scripture that the RCC does not follow scripture, which makes it “another gospel”. Why don’t you take a few things taught in the RCC and match them up against the word of God, look for yourself and see what has been added, changed, or taken away.

JL: Yes I can see what you are trying to say, you don’t really know the teachings of the Church. You have simply been taugh and believed the traditions of men in regards to Church teaching. I have taken things taught in the Chruch and have found they MATCH up with the WORD of God, that’s one reason I became Catholic. [2Thes2:15 Therefore, **brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, WHETHER by word, OR our epistle.] I have taken things taught by SOME Protestant groups and found many things do not MATCH up with the WORD of God, whether by word OR epistle, such as faith alone, baptism symolic, baptism of adults only, communion symbolic, no sacraments, invisible chruch, secret rapture, dispensationalism, OSAS, sola scriptura, no oral Apostolic Tradition, etc… If you were not hidding the name of you particular faith group behind the word Protestant, I could tell you the traditions, of men, of your group.

 

[momtoo]

JL: Yes when it is BOTH WATER and the SPIRIT in the sacrament of baptism. That’s HOW SINS ARE WASHED AWAY and one is BORN AGAIN a child of God, as Christ tells us in Jn3:5. I suggest you read all the scriptures. You have yet to SHOW ME one scripture that baptism only indicates one accepts Christ as savoir.

No one said water alone washes away sins. But the sacrament of baptism thur water AND the Spirit does take away sin. I will start with a couple OT prophets who foretold Christ’s baptism. Ezek36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean WATER upon you, and YE SHALL BE CLEAN: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Zech13:1 IN THAT DAY THERE SHALL BE A FOUNTAIN OPENED TO THE HOUSE OF DAVID and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem FOR SIN AND for UNCLEANNESS.

[Col 2:9 For IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY. 10 And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 IN WHOM also YE ARE CIRCUMCISED with THE CIRCUMCISION MADE WITHOUT HANDS, in **PUTTING OFF THE BODY OF SINS OF THE FLESH BY

THE CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST: 12 buried with him in BAPTISM, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, BEING DEAD IN YOUR SINS AND THE UNCIRCUMCISION OF YOUR FLESH, hath he QUICKENED together WITH HIM, having FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES; 14 BLOTTING OUT the handwriting of ORDINANCES that was AGAINST US, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, NAILING IT TO HIS CROSS;]

[Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and **BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE THE gift of the HOLY GHOST.]

[Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and **BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.]

The Holy Spirit ACTS through ORDINARY WATER and the word, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Baptism is a, NECESSARY, part of the process OF SALVATION. Water is the SIGN, with the words, in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, THROUGH WHICH the Holy Spirit ACTS, as God ordained. Making the baptized a new creation, BORN AGAIN, by water AND of the Holy Spirit, WASHING AWAY OUR SINS. Giving to the REPENTANT REMISSION OF SINS and the GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, as the above scriptures CLEARLY tell us.

ACTS 19:1 And it came to pass that, while Apollos was at Corinth Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus and FINDING certain DISCIPLES 2 HE SAID unto them HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him WE HAVE NOT SO MUCH AS HEARD whether THERE BE ANY HOLY GHOST 3 And HE SAID unto them UNTO WHAT then WERE YE BAPTIZED? And THEY SAID UNTO JOHN’S BAPTISM 4 Then said Paul, JOHN verily BAPTIZED WITH the BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE SAYING unto the people that they should BELIEVE ON HIM WHICH should COME AFTER HIM that is ON CHRIST JESUS 5 When they heard this THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS

Evidently more is needed than BELIEF and faith in Christ, to be born again, because John’s baptism of WATER, was of repentance, believing or having faith in the one to come, Christ. They needed the sacrament of Christian baptism to be born again by water AND the Spirit. The Holy Spirit and Christian water baptism go hand and hand else why would Paul ask about baptism when he found they had not RECEIVED or even heard of the Holy Spirit? We receive the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit, in the sacrament of Christ’s baptism

I don’t know why Ralph was banned but this info is awesome! No matter how much I learn there is always more to learn! I was wondering as I read Ralph’s comments which Bible exactly he was using…the “original” with all the books (RCC version) or the “authorized” King James version (protestant). If Ralph is reading this I hope all the best for him. I will make sure to say a rosary for you Ralph. Thanks again for this great info!

 

[jlhargus]

I don’t know why Ralph was banned but this info is awesome! No matter how much I learn there is always more to learn! I was wondering as I read Ralph’s comments which Bible exactly he was using…the “original” with all the books (RCC version) or the “authorized” King James version (protestant). If Ralph is reading this I hope all the best for him. I will make sure to say a rosary for you Ralph. Thanks again for this great info!

JL: Thanks momtoo, I was hoping Ralph would be around for awhile. I think he is open to the truth, even though he has been taught and belongs to an anti-Catholic group. I prayed for him this morning a mass. Hopefully he got enough while here to see his position on baptism and the Church is only a tradition of men and a contradiction of scripture. I never stop learning, the more you learn the more you realize there is yet more to learn.

 

[Philthy]

I don’t know why Ralph was banned but this info is awesome! No matter how much I learn there is always more to learn! I was wondering as I read Ralph’s comments which Bible exactly he was using…the “original” with all the books (RCC version) or the “authorized” King James version (protestant). If Ralph is reading this I hope all the best for him. I will make sure to say a rosary for you Ralph. Thanks again for this great info!

I, for one, will not miss Ralph. After a while it becomes redundant, counterproductive, and senseless to continue to listen to the same, tired, ignorant claims that he puts forth with no apparent intention of absorbing any of the information offered to him. Initially it has the benefit of exposing just how weak and ingrained some of the “arguments” against Catholicism are, but after a while it becomes more of a nuisance than anything else.

 

[jlhargus]

I, for one, will not miss Ralph. After a while it becomes redundant, counterproductive, and senseless to continue to listen to the same, tired, ignorant claims that he puts forth with no apparent intention of absorbing any of the information offered to him. Initially it has the benefit of exposing just how weak and ingrained some of the “arguments” against Catholicism are, but after a while it becomes more of a nuisance than anything else.

JL: I know what you mean. You could be right I only debated with him briefly on this line. The prayer and hope is in time and in their continuing to study scriptures the truth will dawn on them, thru the Holy Spirit.

 

[normbetland]

I pose the question to you. If you are born into a Catholic Church and later choose to worship in another Church for genuine reasons why would the Lord of All of us , not understand?
jAll this talk of heresy etc does not help a genuine seeker who prefers to choose another way to worship does it? To seek

If only other denominations were “another way to worship”. Other denominations change teachings, not worship styles. They deny real truths about God. When they say that the Eucharist is not Jesus Christ, that’s not a worship choice, that’s a rejection of truth, a heresy. The concept of heresy does seek a genuine seeker, because how can one be a genuine seeker if they care nothing for truth, but only seek a community that has an atmosphere they like.