Does the split between the Catholic and Orthodox Church matter?

[crumblymunky]

The split between the Catholic and Orthodox Church, and excuse me if I’m posting outside the correct forum, but, does it matter?

Yes, there are some differences between us, and these do prevent us from union, but we both espouse to live out the same life (charity and what not) and I wonder whether God really thinks one Church is right or wrong, or if we simply find the same thing in a different way?

We are similar, and lots of what I see as divisions between the Church are more like theological disputes rather than grounds for separation. For example, the Filioque, it is a small doctrinal issue. Original sin, another matter of explanation. Immaculate Conception, somewhat related to original sin.

Papal supremacy seems to be the biggest issue, but has anyone considered that maybe, just maybe, the western church was supposed to develop this. We don’t know how God works, so what if it was his will that we develop the Papal supremacy doctrine?

I am really tired and speculating, so what do you guys think? Especially about the Papal Supremacy. Do you think that it is possible that God willed for the Western Church to take this path in order to save it from something that we, as humans, cannot perceive? I mean, both Churches have miracles, sacraments, apostolic succession, and claim to be the true church of Christ.

I guess what I meant was does it matter in terms of salvation and adherence to the true faith, and not to us, but to God. What do you guys think?

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

the Filioque, it is a small doctrinal issue.

I don’t agree that the doctrinal issue that describes the essence of God revealed to us both in the Bible & the Ecumenical Councils is “small”.

To answer your question “Does it matter”? I have to say, “Yes! Truth always matters.”

 

[GaryTaylor]

“Yes! Truth always matters.”

What is the truth?

 

[GaryTaylor]

I guess what I meant was does it matter in terms of salvation and adherence to the true faith, and not to us, but to God. What do you guys think?

What is the true faith and what distinguished marks does it have to indicate its the True Faith so that one will know they are indeed following the True Faith?

 

[crumblymunky]

When I say “a small doctrinal issue,” as in the filioque, many times I’ve seen people handle this in ecumenical matters as saying the same thing in different ways. Orthodox see it as proceeding from the Father, through the Son (correct me if I’m wrong) and Rome sees it as the spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son.

They are close to each other, so close in fact that I hardly think one church could really present this as a major stumbling block

 

[Nita]

If it mattered to Our Lord, then it should matter to us.
Jesus’ *final prayer *to the Father before leaving the Last Supper to begin His passion, was a plea to Him for unity and truth for His followers.

John, Chapter 17:
When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come; … I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine;… Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. … Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. … And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,** that they may all be one**; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, **that they may be one **even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me…

18:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples across the Kidron valley, where there was a garden, …

 

[1ke]

Not only does the truth matter, but real, visible unity matters. If the East and West had not split, the world would look very different today.

Although it is mere speculation, I believe Islam would not be what it is today, Russia would never have become the atheistic communist government that it did spreading its ideology far and wide (repressing the Church in the process), perhaps wars would have been avoided, and most likely the Reformation too.

YES, it matters.

 

[brb3]

Yes it matters. We point out to Protestants they cant agree among themselves…and they respond … " what about Rome and Constantinople ? …get your own house in order "

 

[PaulVF]

Did not St. Paul go forth and evangelize the Gospel to the East where St. Peter went West towards Rome; both sent by Our Lord. Due to the geographic distances of both it is of no wonder that differences of view emerged. The message remained the same. Which can be said to be the true Orthodox view of Christianity?

 

[Ignatius]

Papal supremacy seems to be the biggest issue, but has anyone considered that maybe, just maybe, the western church was supposed to develop this. We don’t know how God works, so what if it was his will that we develop the Papal supremacy doctrine?

The Catholic Church, especially the Eastern Catholic Churches, has no doctrine of Papal Supremacy. Christ and His Church have always held to the Primacy of the See of Peter, this is one of presiding in love, not supremacy.

 

[steve_b]

The split between the Catholic and Orthodox Church, and excuse me if I’m posting outside the correct forum, but, does it matter?

Scripture condemns division. So the answer is Yes, it matters.
c:

Yes, there are some differences between us, and these do prevent us from union, but we both espouse to live out the same life (charity and what not) and I wonder whether God really thinks one Church is right or wrong, or if we simply find the same thing in a different way?

The issue is over primacy and authority. Where have we seen that before?

An argument broke out with the apostles overwho was the greatest among THEM. [Lk 22: 24-32.] That’s an argument over primacy. …right?

• Jesus confirms one of them would be the greatest,
• Jesus said to Peter, It’s Satan sifting like wheat, that’s why the apostles are in an argument over primacy. But notice, Jesus says I’m praying for you Peter, so that you confirm and strengthen your brothers. Argument over. The apostles have their answer. Peter has primacy over THEM
• Add to that, again Jesus said to Peter in front of all the apostles, feed, tend, rule my sheep.

So yeah, seperation from Peter matters.

 

[steve_b]

The Catholic Church, especially the Eastern Catholic Churches, has no doctrine of Papal Supremacy. Christ and His Church have always held to the Primacy of the See of Peter, this is one of presiding in love, not supremacy.

That’s not correct

“The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office (munus) given in a special way by the Lord to Peter, first of the Apostles and to be transmitted to his successors, is head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entire Church on earth; therefore in virtue of his office (munus) he enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise.” (Canon 43 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches)

melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/are-we-orthodox-united-with-rome

Melkites are 100% Catholic

 

[Verbum]

Hi Crumbly,

At the last supper Jesus ( John 11) prayed for unity. If he prayed for it, it is something that we should all strive for.

Holy Father, keep in your name those whom you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. (15)

As you, Father, are in me and I in you, may they also be one in us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. (20)

Verbum

 

[TopResearcher]

The split between the Catholic and Orthodox Church, and excuse me if I’m posting outside the correct forum, but, does it matter?

Yes, there are some differences between us, and these do prevent us from union, but we both espouse to live out the same life (charity and what not) and I wonder whether God really thinks one Church is right or wrong, or if we simply find the same thing in a different way?

We are similar, and lots of what I see as divisions between the Church are more like theological disputes rather than grounds for separation. For example, the Filioque, it is a small doctrinal issue. Original sin, another matter of explanation. Immaculate Conception, somewhat related to original sin.

Papal supremacy seems to be the biggest issue, but has anyone considered that maybe, just maybe, the western church was supposed to develop this. We don’t know how God works, so what if it was his will that we develop the Papal supremacy doctrine?

I am really tired and speculating, so what do you guys think? Especially about the Papal Supremacy. Do you think that it is possible that God willed for the Western Church to take this path in order to save it from something that we, as humans, cannot perceive? I mean, both Churches have miracles, sacraments, apostolic succession, and claim to be the true church of Christ.

I guess what I meant was does it matter in terms of salvation and adherence to the true faith, and not to us, but to God. What do you guys think?

miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/coptic.html

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius;10331022:

The Catholic Church, especially the Eastern Catholic Churches, has no doctrine of Papal Supremacy. Christ and His Church have always held to the Primacy of the See of Peter, this is one of presiding in love, not supremacy.

That’s not correct

My point is expressed much better than I did in the following post:

The issue is over primacy and authority.

An argument broke out with the apostles overwho was the greatest among THEM. [Lk 22: 24-32.] That’s an argument over primacy. …right?

The more accurate expression is primacy, not supremacy. That was the point I was trying to express, however clumsily.

 

[marlo]

Yes, the truth matters, and here is the truth from a guy who usually post with vigor but now his spirit is gone

I have an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in my living room & she has always been A tangible “proof” to me that our Catholic Church is the is the True Church because she is the visible and heavenly painted image of the Ark of the Covenant described in Revelation Chapter 12. A woman with the moon under her feet and the crown of stars on her head.

do you know this guy Comehome2Rome?

To answer your question “Does it matter”? I have to say, “Yes! Truth always matters.”

 

[steve_b]

My point is expressed much better than I did in the following post:

The more accurate expression is primacy, not supremacy. That was the point I was trying to express, however clumsily.

this is not primacy vs supremacy. It’s not either/or, but both Peter’s primacy and supremacy. That’s why I quoted canon law

“The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office (munus) given in a special way by the Lord to Peter, first of the Apostles and to be transmitted to his successors, is head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entire Church on earth; thereforen virtue of his office (munus) he enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise.” (Canon 43 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches)

Where does this come from one might ask?

the apostles were in this very argument over who is the greatest among them, and Jesus answered them. Jesus validates one of the apostles will be the greatest among them. And everybody knows who that is.

Jesus says to Peter that he is

μείζων meizōn Lk 22:24 (Greatest among THEM)
ἡγέομαι hēgeomai Lk 22:26 (to rule, to command)
ποιμαίνω poimainō Jn 21:17 (to rule, to govern Our Lord’s sheep & lambs )

Jesus was talking to Peter “directly” in each case, and the apostles are there to hear what Jesus is saying to Peter. Which means Jesus put Peter over them, ergo the Church. And we see the following over history, as a result of Peter’s see in Rome

“The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office (munus) given in a special way by the Lord to Peter, first of the Apostles and to be transmitted to his successors, is head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entire Church on earth; thereforen virtue of his office (munus) he enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise.” (Canon 43 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches)