Does the state of Israel have eschatological significance?

[YHWH_Christ]

Whether or not you support the right of the state of Israel to exist, I mean, it’s gotta have some kind of eschatological significance, right? Not too long after the advent of our Lord the Jewish people as a nation were completely defeated, their Temple destroyed. They tried again a little while later but that too failed horribly, even worse than the first time actually. Skip to many many centuries later we have the rise of Adolf Hitler, the holocaust, and then a few years later the Jewish people finally have a home again after like 2000 years. Oh yeah and now Hebrew is a thing again, people actually speak it now in everyday life (though it has changed quite a bit from Biblical Hebrew).

Obviously the Temple hasn’t been rebuilt or anything like that, even though the west bank is occupied and Jerusalem is the declared capital of Israel. But then again, because of the absolute craziness that is human history, another slightly newer religion now claims that same spot which was once the holiest site of the original religion that was there before it. Oh and that new religion happens to be the one of your neighbors who really hate you because you’re occupying their land. (Judaism being the original and Islam being the latter).

Anyway, do you think that the state of Israel, good or bad, will be apart of or lead to some sort of event that may trigger the end? I’m not saying this will happen soon or even in the far future. No one knows at all. The Lord will come like a thief in the night and we should always be on watch. Still though, is there a Biblical way to interpret the state of Israel?

 

[Michael16]

The only way I see that Israel has any eschatological relevance is when the Third Temple is built and the Antichrist enters it. Then I’ll know the Apocalypse is about to happen.

Beyond that: I don’t think too much about it.

 

[YHWH_Christ]

Honestly I really don’t know. I believe in providence. But I also believe in free will. Maybe this is just humans being silly again but maybe it’s something more. I’m hoping to find answers and I want to see what my friends here on CAF think.

 

[Michael16]

I see how this can be an interesting question. For me though; questions of the end times I leave for the end times. I try to focus on the here and now and living a good Catholic life.

When I do think about Israel, I think we should support Israel as the only stable democracy in the area and that I’ve always been fascinated by Judaism.

 

[yankeesouth]

The Catholic end time scenario includes the conversion of all Israel as a condition before the second coming of Christ. Whether that means Israel as a nation or all Jews worldwide, I’m not sure.

 

[Dan_Defender]

Since I believe in Preterism and Amillenialism, Israel is currently not relevant IMO.

 

[YHWH_Christ]

Just because you’re a Preterist doesn’t mean you can’t have an eschatology. I believe the Catholic Church teaches there will be an Antichrist and second coming. As does the Orthodox Church. Full Preterism is heretical. Scripture can be interpreted in multiple ways and still have meaning. Jesus used Daniel to predict the destruction of the Temple although in its original context Daniel is about the Maccabean Revolt. The resurrection of Christ confirms our faith in his teachings.

 

[Dan_Defender]

??? I don’t understand your point. Of course eschatology stands. You were asking about the relevance of Israel, that’s the only point I answered. You can have eschatology without any big role for Israel. I’m always amazed at how OPs see disagreement in everything.

 

[on_the_hill]

I think political boundaries are human constructs, and God isn’t concerned with how we draw our maps from day to day. Same as with the consecration of Russia, or the U.S., or East Jabib. I can’t imagine these places are anything more significant to God than are doodles on paper.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Every time I answer my take on Israel, or at least the nation state of Israel, a lot of people get on the defensive, so you’re on your own on this one.

 

[yankeesouth]

The word ‘nation(s)’ is mentioned 719 times in Scripture with God saying the word about sixteen times right from the beginning in Genesis.

 

[on_the_hill]

God wasn’t talking about boundary lines on maps. They come and go. Aside from politics, national boundaries have little meaning. If I stand on one side of an imaginary line, I’m American. If I stand on the other, I’m Canadian. Does God care?

 

[Bithynian]

God wasn’t talking about boundary lines on maps.

Yes, I think we have to be careful and ensure that we don’t conflate the modern use of the word “nation” with the Scriptural use of the word נּרֹי (goy) and ἐθνός (ethnos).

Our modern use of the word “nation” has a strong geopolitical slant to it, embodying ideas about statehood, boundaries, citizenship and such. This is not especially coterminous with the general idea of “people” as נּרֹי and ἐθνός tend to describe. It’s possible to have a Jewish נּרֹי/ἐθνός without confusing it with a modern Jewish nation state.

 

[njlisa]

@on_the_hill

God promised Abram descendants and land.

Genesis 15:5
He [God] took him [Abram] outside and said: Look up at the sky and count the stars, if you can. Just so, he added, will your descendants be.

Genesis 15:7
He [God] then said to him [Abram]: I am the Lord who brought you from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land as a possession

 

[yankeesouth]

Yes, I think we have to be careful and ensure that we don’t conflate the modern use of the word “nation” with the Scriptural use of the word נּרֹי ( goy ) and ἐθνός ( ethnos ).

These are the sons of Ham, by their families, their languages, their lands, and their nations.

Same ethnicity (sons of Ham) but it does seem God is distinguishing between languages, lands and nations.

 

[yankeesouth]

Does God care?

Does God care what religion one has faith in? What Church one is a member of? Might not God care that a nation is founded on Judeo Christian principles? And then care that it shuns those principles? Perhaps that is why boundaries come and go.

 

[on_the_hill]

Does God care what religion one has faith in?

Yes, obviously.

Might not God care that a nation is founded on Judeo Christian principles?

When people say “founded on Judeo Christian principles,” they usually mean the U.S., and it usually means that “God likes our political party more than the other guys’.”

Our nation should be the one holy and apostolic church, not the national flag we wave.

 

[yankeesouth]

Yes thank you. Do you have an idea what ‘the conversion of all Israel’ means?

 

[Salibi]

Do you have an idea what ‘the conversion of all Israel’ means?

I think “the conversion of Israel” refers to the conversion of Jews as a nation, regardless of their nationality.

I think it would be proper here to point out that “nation” in the old sense of the world does not correspond with “state”. Numerous nations have no states (Druze, Kurds, Assyrians) and are spread across different states/ countries.

 

[yankeesouth]

Yes it has been mentioned before but again…

These are the sons of Ham, by their families, their languages, their lands, and their nations.

Same ethnicity (sons of Ham) but it does seem God is distinguishing between languages, lands and nations. And as posted earlier, land was promised to Abraham.