Does the treasury of merit exist?

[joe370]

Those in heaven who offer to God our prayers are not just angels, but human souls as well. John sees that “the twenty-four elders (the leaders of the people of God in heaven) - fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” Rev. 5:8 John also says "Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. Rev. 8 The simple fact is, as these passage show: These saintly souls in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth, and their prayers are far more efficacious than the saints on earth for they are now perfectly united to God.

These saintly souls have finally passed into the inner circle spoken of in the book of Revelation, and have drawn near to the Throne of God, forever gazing upon the golden vials full of incense, which represent the prayers of the saints. These prayers of the saints in heaven, (which in no way take anything away from the infinite merits of Christ or add anything to the infinite merits of Christ) - before the golden alter and throne of God, must serve a purpose, otherwise, what would be the point of their prayers, on our behalf, being offered up to the throne of God? If they do serve a purpose, which, logically speaking, would be to draw people, on earth, closer to Christ, then is it safe to say that these prayers do indeed have a certain meritorious value, drawing Christians to Christ, again, without taking anything away from the infinite merits of Christ or adding anything to the infinite merits of Christ? If so, then certainly Christians would have no problem viewing these meritorious prayers of the heavenly saints, as a treasury of merit - right?

 

[dzheremi]

I don’t understand why this idea has developed regarding the prayers of the saints. The mechanics seem much less important to ponder (much less develop an entire hypothetical scenario based on logical prerequisites) than the effects of the prayers.

I am tempted to say “it doesn’t matter whether this concept exists, because the saints exist regardless and their prayers are effective regardless of how we conceive of them operating.”

 

[joe370]

I don’t understand why this idea has developed regarding the prayers of the saints. The mechanics seem much less important to ponder (much less develop an entire hypothetical scenario based on logical prerequisites) than the effects of the prayers.

I am tempted to say “it doesn’t matter whether this concept exists, because the saints exist regardless and their prayers are effective regardless of how we conceive of them operating.”

You didn’t answer the question but thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut anyway…

 

[dzheremi]

I didn’t answer the question because the concept does not make sense to me. Is there a way to explain this concept so that it is something other speculation for speculation’s sake? It’s hard to write too much about the possible existence of a theoretical construct…

So, um…maybe?

 

[joe370]

I didn’t answer the question because the concept does not make sense to me. Is there a way to explain this concept so that it is something other speculation for speculation’s sake? It’s hard to write too much about the possible existence of a theoretical construct…

So, um…maybe?

In the book of revelation the author John clearly makes the distinction between angels and elders, so the author knew that the elders were not angels. In the book of revelation, do you believe that the incense represents our prayers, and that the 24 elder in heaven present our prayers to God? If so then could there be some sort of meritorious value to this intercession? If not then I understand why you said: So, um…*maybe?

“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hands of the angel before God.” (Rev. 8:3-4)*

 

[dzheremi]

I guess I’m not really seeing how this concept of a “Treasury of Merit” is explicitly (or even really implicitly) connected to the scripture you quoted. By that, I mean that I believe in everything stated (incense has long been connected with prayer, and of course our prayers are brought before God in heaven) but do not see how it adds up to this “treasury of merit”, which as I understand it is more about the transactional details/exchanges than about what you’ve mentioned in connection with it.

So, yes, maybe, though I am personally disinclined to believe in it (since I don’t see why it is necessary to believe in it).

 

[joe370]

I didn’t answer the question because the concept does not make sense to me. Is there a way to explain this concept so that it is something other speculation for speculation’s sake? It’s hard to write too much about the possible existence of a theoretical construct…

So, um…maybe?

I suppose the first step in going from um…maybe, to yes, is discovering via scripture, if those souls in heaven can actually hear our prayers. When we turn to the bible, we see the continued awareness of the soul after death. For example, Hebrews 12:22-24 says:

“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.”

The general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, and the spirits of just men made perfect, are those God-loving souls who have passed from this life to be with Christ, in the next. They are now part of the Church in heaven (the “Church Triumphant”) - living consciously and eternally with Jesus, though still awaiting His Second Coming, when they will be clothed with their glorified bodies at the resurrection of the dead.

My point is: Surely this would NOT say, that in the Church’s worship, we are in the presence of the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven and the spirits of just men made perfect - if in fact the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heavens, and those spirits of just men made perfect - were somehow inactive and unaware - yes, no?

Your thoughts friend…

 

[joe370]

I guess I’m not really seeing how this concept of a “Treasury of Merit” is explicitly (or even really implicitly) connected to the scripture you quoted. By that, I mean that I believe in everything stated (incense has long been connected with prayer, and of course our prayers are brought before God in heaven) but do not see how it adds up to this “treasury of merit”, which as I understand it is more about the transactional details/exchanges than about what you’ve mentioned in connection with it.

So, yes, maybe, though I am personally disinclined to believe in it (since I don’t see why it is necessary to believe in it).

Perhaps implicitly…? If the prayers of those saintly souls in heaven can in some way draw us closer to Jesus, then their prayers and intercession seem to possess a certain degree of meritorious value, something the CC identifies as, the treasury of merit, when those meritorious prayers are taken as a whole. Of course, like the Trinity, that term is nowhere found in scripture.

 

[dzheremi]

Ah, I see. Well, I would not say “if the saints x, y, z” to begin with, as that is one thing I would not treat as speculation, as we have more than enough evidence from tradition to show the prayers of the saints working miracles. See, for instance, a a short list from Bishop Mettaous’ book “The Sublimity of Monasticism”.

Again, this is something that I believe is absolutely true, but I do not see how it leads to a belief in the concept of a treasury of merit.

 

[De_Maria]

I guess I’m not really seeing how this concept of a “Treasury of Merit” is explicitly (or even really implicitly) connected to the scripture you quoted. By that, I mean that I believe in everything stated (incense has long been connected with prayer, and of course our prayers are brought before God in heaven) but do not see how it adds up to this “treasury of merit”, which as I understand it is more about the transactional details/exchanges than about what you’ve mentioned in connection with it.

So, yes, maybe, though I am personally disinclined to believe in it (since I don’t see why it is necessary to believe in it).

Is the concept of a “treasury” the question?

Or the concept of “merit” before God?

Or the concept that merit can be applied to another?

Or all of those?

If the treasury is in question, Scripture explicitly identifies the treasury in these verses:
Mark 12:43
And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

Obviously, the woman did not put more money in the treasury than the other folk. So, she cast something of greater value in the heavenly treasury.

There is another verse here. Jesus says:
Matthew 6:20
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

I don’t think Jesus is talking about actual money or gold in heaven. But of some spiritual quality.

What did the widow put in the treasury? What did Jesus call our treasure in heaven?
Luke 12:33
Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

In Luke, Jesus adds the admonishment, give alms. Alms are gifts to the poor. Good works. Apparently, God attributes to our good works some value. Here it is again:
Luke 11:41
But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.

These good works, of which giving alms is apparently one of the most important, even “justify” the doer. Justification is the remission of sin. And the terminology, “all things are clean unto you” means that your sins are forgiven.

So, I think that is where the concepts of treasury and merit come from.

While St. James reveals that God looks upon some people’s prayers with more esteem than others. I interpret it to mean that they have gained more merit in God’s eyes:
James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

I think St. James is here advising us to pray for each other. At the same time he reveals that the prayer of RIGHTEOUS men avails much. I take that to mean, more than those of ordinary sinners like most of us.

Anyway, that’s the way I understand it. I hope it helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[joe370]

Ah, I see. Well, I would not say “if the saints x, y, z” to begin with, as that is one thing I would not treat as speculation, as we have more than enough evidence from tradition to show the prayers of the saints working miracles. See, for instance, a a short list from Bishop Mettaous’ book “The Sublimity of Monasticism”.

Again, this is something that I believe is absolutely true, but I do not see how it leads to a belief in the concept of a treasury of merit.

Thanks for the feedback brother. I’ll check out that list.

 

[joe370]

Thanks for the scripture verses brother. Scripture seems very clear that those saintly souls in heaven can hear our prayers in Hebrews 12, and scripture is also clear, in the book of Revelation, that those heavenly saints offer up our prayers to the throne of God. If God answers their prayers in a way that is beneficial to someone on earth, such as drawing him/her closer to Jesus, then a meritorious value can be attached to the prayers of those heavenly saints, without taking away or adding anything to the infinite merits of Christ.It’s easy, for me anyway, to see how the CC views the heavenly prayers of all those heavenly saints, (who are still members of Jesus’ Mystical Body, only more perfectly) - as a “treasure of merit,” when taken collectively. And we know that these prayers are far more efficacious than our prayers on earth, for who could be more righteous or pray more fervently and perfectly than those already perfected and now, forever in the Lord’s presence, perfectly conformed to His will? Furthermore, we know that they care for us for scripture says: “There will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents…”

Is the concept of a “treasury” the question?

Or the concept of “merit” before God?

Or the concept that merit can be applied to another?

Or all of those?

If the treasury is in question, Scripture explicitly identifies the treasury in these verses:
Mark 12:43
And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

Obviously, the woman did not put more money in the treasury than the other folk. So, she cast something of greater value in the heavenly treasury.

There is another verse here. Jesus says:
Matthew 6:20
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

I don’t think Jesus is talking about actual money or gold in heaven. But of some spiritual quality.

What did the widow put in the treasury? What did Jesus call our treasure in heaven?
Luke 12:33
Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

In Luke, Jesus adds the admonishment, give alms. Alms are gifts to the poor. Good works. Apparently, God attributes to our good works some value. Here it is again:
Luke 11:41
But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.

These good works, of which giving alms is apparently one of the most important, even “justify” the doer. Justification is the remission of sin. And the terminology, “all things are clean unto you” means that your sins are forgiven.

So, I think that is where the concepts of treasury and merit come from.

While St. James reveals that God looks upon some people’s prayers with more esteem than others. I interpret it to mean that they have gained more merit in God’s eyes:
James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

I think St. James is here advising us to pray for each other. At the same time he reveals that the prayer of RIGHTEOUS men avails much. I take that to mean, more than those of ordinary sinners like most of us.

Anyway, that’s the way I understand it. I hope it helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Swiss_Guy]

I think it exists. Christ has unlimited merits by his death on the Cross, and the saints have merits because of the grace of God and merits of Christ, and the unlimited merits in the “treasury” can be used to benefit us on earth in a positive way. That’s how I see it.

 

[dzheremi]

“Christ has unlimited merits by his death on the Cross”…

What do you guys mean when you talk about “merits” or “meritorious” qualities (of prayers or what have you)?

 

[joe370]

I think it exists. Christ has unlimited merits by his death on the Cross, and the saints have merits because of the grace of God and merits of Christ, and the unlimited merits in the “treasury” can be used to benefit us on earth in a positive way. That’s how I see it.

That makes sense.

The infinite merit of Christ is all any Christian needs, and of course we cannot merit our way into heaven or someone else into heaven; that is possible only through the infinite merits of Christ. Nonetheless, Jesus still commands, via scripture, that each Christian pray and intercede for other Christians, and these prayers, if answered by God, are quite meritorious for they draw the beneficiary closer to Christ, and of course the meritorious prayers of the benefactor derive all of their merit from Christ, the infinite source of all merit.

“First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people…”

“Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints…”

 

[joe370]

“Christ has unlimited merits by his death on the Cross”…

What do you guys mean when you talk about “merits” or “meritorious” qualities (of prayers or what have you)?

Hey dzheremi; I agree! Check out post 15…

 

[dzheremi]

Sorry, Joe, but I still don’t really understand the use of “merit” or meritorious". Swiss Guy used it in the plural, which implies that “merit” is something countable, like money. And if I understand you correctly, prayers are considered “meritorious” when (because?) they draw a person closer to God. Trying to connect the two (the countable, money-like “merits” and “meritorious” things that bring you closer to God), I am left thinking that you earn merits by/when drawing closer to God, and that these merits are what are stored and drawn from by the faithful. Am I close? I’m trying to understand, but this concept is very foreign to me. Even though I was RC for about 5 years, I don’t remember this idea ever coming up.

Here are some problems with this idea:

• It seems like a very financial and worldly way to approach spirituality
• We don’t really know the exact mechanics of how prayers are answered. I fail to see why this is something we should even need to look at. God answers prayer. That much we know. If we start asking how, and developing all kinds of theories about how, aren’t we bound to drive ourselves crazy? We can’t ever know such things, can we? I could see how this need for absolute epistemological could be very destructive, because it not forthcoming in this life.
• If by “meritorious” you mean “drawing a person closer to God”, and merits are some sort of individual unit of _____ (grace or something?) that are earned by those actions that draw a person closer to God, then what can we say about the inherent value of building a close relationship with God? This kind of understanding seems dangerously close to what I always thought was a more Protestant view, wherein (for instance) the entirety of the Christian life can be summarized as an attempt to “get to heaven”/“avoid hell”, leading to a human-centered idea of our relationship with God that seems an awful lot like an elementary school fund raising drive to sell enough newspapers to get a certain prize.

 

[joe370]

Hey Dzheremi, you said:

Sorry, Joe, but I still don’t really understand the use of “merit” or meritorious".

Even though it makes sense to me, that certainly doesn’t mean that my understanding is the correct one, which of course is why I defer to the church, I believe to be the church founded by Jesus, forever guided by the holy spirit into all truth, as I am sure you do regarding the church to which you belong.

I guess the big questions are:

1. Can the prayer of a Christian, be meritorious?

If so

1. can the merit of good works such as sacrifice and prayer, benefit another?

If it can’t then I don’t understand why Jesus expects us to pray for others or why scripture tells us that the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective? Why does a man/woman need to be righteous for the prayer to be powerful and effective?

Swiss Guy used it in the plural, which implies that “merit” is something countable, like money.

Yeah, I caught that, and should have mentioned something to him…but, if that’s what he believes, I do respect his right to believe it, but that’s not the teaching of the CC as far as I can tell.

And if I understand you correctly, prayers are considered “meritorious” when (because?) they draw a person closer to God.

If the "effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much, and the prayer of a righteous man draws another person closer to God, then surely there is some merit to the prayer, even though the actual outcome of the meritorious deed comes directly from Christ, for only Christ can measure one’s prayer and determine whether or not one’s prayers are in fact meritorious. To me, the merit of the prayer is rooted in the firm, fervent and sincere intention one brings to prayer, ergo the need for a “righteous man.” Prayers are meritorious, IMHO, because they are selfless acts of charity and sacrifice which are both pleasing to Jesus. If I pray with discipline, fervency and a sincere heart and love for 20 years, for my brother, I would think that Jesus would find that fervent effort righteous and meritorious, even to the point of answering my prayer, for He is the source of all merit - if it’s His will of course.

Continued…

 

[joe370]

Trying to connect the two (the countable, money-like “merits” and “meritorious” things that bring you closer to God), I am left thinking that you earn merits by/when drawing closer to God, and that these merits are what are stored and drawn from by the faithful.

Well, you lost me with the countable, money-like “merits.” I don’t think of it as earning countable, money-like “merits.”

Do you believe that a person can increase the sum of their spiritual merits by humble acts of charity and prayer for others, without actually knowing the spiritual value of their merits?

An act of charity or kindness toward someone, or a heartfelt prayer for a fellow Christian, or whoever, all have some meritorious value (so to speak) - to them, for Jesus asks us to pray and listens to our prayers, and it is only from the infinite merits of Christ that a persons meritorious act has any kind of value, monetarily speaking that is. LOL…Just kidding…Spiritually speaking of course…

Am I close? I’m trying to understand, but this concept is very foreign to me. Even though I was RC for about 5 years, I don’t remember this idea ever coming up.

As a former protestant it was foreign to me as well. But in my heart I felt that only the catholic church or the eastern orthodox church could qualify as the church founded by God, and once I was drawn to the CC, as being the church founded by God, I knew it was time to at least try and understand this teaching.

Here are some problems with this idea:

• It seems like a very financial and worldly way to approach spirituality

I don’t get the whole financial thing, but yes, prayer is a very worldly approach…

• We don’t really know the exact mechanics of how prayers are answered.

Agreed.

I fail to see why this is something we should even need to look at. God answers prayer. That much we know. If we start asking how, and developing all kinds of theories about how, aren’t we bound to drive ourselves crazy? We can’t ever know such things, can we? I could see how this need for absolute epistemological could be very destructive, because it not forthcoming in this life.

I understand.

• If by “meritorious” you mean “drawing a person closer to God”, and merits are some sort of individual unit of _____ (grace or something?) that are earned by those actions that draw a person closer to God, then what can we say about the inherent value of building a close relationship with God?

Well, like I mentioned, I don’t see the meritorious act of prayer as an attempt earn anything per se. The merit, such as a prayer, is purely a selfless act, IMHO, with no return expected. Kind of like investing in Lowes stock. LOL…Like Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.” It seems to me that these meritorious acts of prayer would be pleasing to Jesus, who could in turn, make those petitions a reality. Does Jesus need these meritorious prayers? Not at all, but scripture tells us that He expects them.

For example, saint Gertrude offered her prayers and good works for the benefit of the suffering souls, which was so pleasing to God that He often showed her the souls who were in most need of her help. Of course she was the exception not the rule. Did Jesus really need her prayers and good works to help those suffering souls? Not at all. But He also doesn’t need us to pick up our crosses and follow Him, to redeem mankind, but He certainly expects it nonetheless. I believe the same can be said of meritorious prayer. To me, picking up our crosses and praying for others, are both more of a participatory matter.

Talk to you later brother…

 

[joe370]

Well, you lost me with the countable, money-like “merits.” I don’t think of it as earning countable, money-like “merits.”

Do you believe that a person can increase the sum of their spiritual merits by humble acts of charity and prayer for others, without actually knowing the spiritual value of their merits?

An act of charity or kindness toward someone, or a heartfelt prayer for a fellow Christian, or whoever, all have some meritorious value (so to speak) - to them, for Jesus asks us to pray and listens to our prayers, and it is only from the infinite merits of Christ that a persons meritorious act has any kind of value, monetarily speaking that is. LOL…Just kidding…Spiritually speaking of course…

As a former protestant it was foreign to me as well. But in my heart I felt that only the catholic church or the eastern orthodox church could qualify as the church founded by God, and once I was drawn to the CC, as being the church founded by God, I knew it was time to at least try and understand this teaching.

I don’t get the whole financial thing, but yes, prayer is a very worldly approach…

Well, like I mentioned, I don’t see the meritorious act of prayer as an attempt earn anything per se. The merit, such as a prayer, is purely a selfless act, IMHO, with no return expected. Kind of like investing in Lowes stock. LOL…Like Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.” It seems to me that these meritorious acts of prayer would be pleasing to Jesus, who could in turn, make those petitions a reality. Does Jesus need these meritorious prayers? Not at all, but scripture tells us that He expects them.

For example, saint Gertrude offered her prayers and good works for the benefit of the suffering souls, which was so pleasing to God that He often showed her the souls who were in most need of her help. Of course she was the exception not the rule regarding this sort of revelation. Did Jesus really need her prayers and good works to help those suffering souls? Not at all. But He also doesn’t need us to pick up our crosses and follow Him either, to redeem mankind, but He certainly expects it. I believe the same can be said of meritorious prayer. To me, picking up our crosses and praying for others, are both more of a participatory matter.

Talk to you later brother…