Does the Vatican endorse a Presidential candidate?

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Brendan:

That is the most sensible thing I have read in a long time!!!

And I am glad that it was the Pope that said it, even if he was Cardinal at the time!

🙂

Scott
 
IAmEdmund said:
Pro-choice means the person beleives that one of the acceptable choices is an abortion. Hence, they are OK with abortion… pro-abortion.

Paint the pig chartreuse and give it a bowtie… its still a pig.

Pro-choice=pro-abortion= approving the murder of children.
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I disagree. Pro choice means that you do not set yourself as an authority over someone else’s body. Instead you allow them the right to decide what they believe about God and faith. Many if not most pro-choice people I know are very much against abortion and are willing to expend serious money to offer alternatives. They just in the end recognize that it is each person’s choice and not to be dictated to by a religiously motivated body.
 
SpiritMeadow said:
I disagree. Pro choice means that you do not set yourself as an authority over someone else’s body. Instead you allow them the right to decide what they believe about God and faith. Many if not most pro-choice people I know are very much against abortion and are willing to expend serious money to offer alternatives. They just in the end recognize that it is each person’s choice and not to be dictated to by a religiously motivated body.
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Wrong. No one has the right to kill another innocent human being. Abortion IS setting yourself up as an authority over someone else’s body–the baby. And it’s not exclusively a religious argument and groups like Atheists for Life prove that.
 
SpiritMeadow said:
Many if not most pro-choice people I know are very much against abortion and are willing to expend serious money to offer alternatives.
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Murder is an alternative??

Where are these rights for the CHILD to choose his/her own desitny, based on their beleifs??

Oh wait… they can’t form any… they are the silenced dead.
 
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IAmEdmund:
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SpiritMeadow:
Many if not most pro-choice people I know are very much against abortion and are willing to expend serious money to offer alternatives.
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Murder is an alternative?
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The claim is not that what you call murder is the alternative. The statement is that these people are against what you call murder and are attempting to offer alternatives to what you call murder.
 
Green_Tea said:
The claim is not that what you call murder is the alternative. The statement is that these people are against what you call murder and are attempting to offer alternatives to what you call murder.
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Thanks for clarifying although I am not convinced that this will be good enough for the close-minded.
 
SpiritMeadow said:
I disagree. Pro choice means that you do not set yourself as an authority over someone else’s body. Instead you allow them the right to decide what they believe about God and faith. Many if not most pro-choice people I know are very much against abortion and are willing to expend serious money to offer alternatives. They just in the end recognize that it is each person’s choice and not to be dictated to by a religiously motivated body.
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By being Pro-abortion, you are setting yourself as an authority over the body of the unborn.

Abortion is the ultimate case of imposing a belief on another. Abortionists kill children and rationalize it by either saying that the children “aren’t people” or that the children are just “part of the mother”. Being anti-abortion is not only for religious peoples, it is for whoever wants to save the lives of children.

If we are going to end abortion, it is time to stop being so wishy washy, and compromise none.

ALL pro-abortionists are gravely disordered. One should be no more “accepting” of this sort of behavior than we would be expected to be “accepting” of genocide.
 
I am very Pro-Life. I am Pro-Life in the sense that I NEVER want to see a baby murdered, and let’s be honest, it is what it is - murder. I am not pro-abortion but I also do not believe that I should be able to impose my beliefs no more on a woman than she should be able to impose her beliefs on an unborn child. I see no harm in spending money on other options such as putting out more information on abstinence until marriage, adoption instead of abortion, etc.

Maybe I am wrong in my thinking, but if we make abortions illegal, we will only see the same results as far as the senseless murder of unborn children, but also a rise in the deaths of the mothers as well due to the fact that they will be seeking other options to abort their babies which will more than likely be more harmful to them than ever before.
 
RodneyJ said:
I am very Pro-Life. I am Pro-Life in the sense that I NEVER want to see a baby murdered, and let’s be honest, it is what it is - murder. I am not pro-abortion but I also do not believe that I should be able to impose my beliefs no more on a woman than she should be able to impose her beliefs on an unborn child. I see no harm in spending money on other options such as putting out more information on abstinence until marriage, adoption instead of abortion, etc.

Maybe I am wrong in my thinking, but if we make abortions illegal, we will only see the same results as far as the senseless murder of unborn children, but also a rise in the deaths of the mothers as well due to the fact that they will be seeking other options to abort their babies which will more than likely be more harmful to them than ever before.
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Not necessarily- outlawing abortion may cause this, but to a very limited extent. Much more likely is that there will be a rise in other contraceptives- the legalization of abortion actually caused a rise in unwanted pregnancies, as people saw abortion as a backup plan- no need to use condoms. We may see a rise in adoption- women who end up having children they cannot afford to raise themselves will put their newborns up for adoption. Hopefully, though, we will ultimately see a fall in such pregnancies due to the reason that less people will have sex if they have to take the risk of having an unwanted pregnancy.
 
Tim_Kirchoff said:
Not necessarily- outlawing abortion may cause this, but to a very limited extent. Much more likely is that there will be a rise in other contraceptives- the legalization of abortion actually caused a rise in unwanted pregnancies, as people saw abortion as a backup plan- no need to use condoms. We may see a rise in adoption- women who end up having children they cannot afford to raise themselves will put their newborns up for adoption. Hopefully, though, we will ultimately see a fall in such pregnancies due to the reason that less people will have sex if they have to take the risk of having an unwanted pregnancy.
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If this is the case, I am with you 100%. I am absolutely NOT for the murder of unborn children and I will not be portrayed as someone who is.

My mother had an abortion before I was born and I am very thankful that I was not the aborted baby. I don’t know why she had the abortion but I know that she is very strong Christian woman now and that she regrets it fully.I don’t like seeing the regret in her eyes and I would never wish the regret on anyone else.
 
RodneyJ said:
If this is the case, I am with you 100%. I am absolutely NOT for the murder of unborn children and I will not be portrayed as someone who is.

My mother had an abortion before I was born and I am very thankful that I was not the aborted baby. I don’t know why she had the abortion but I know that she is very strong Christian woman now and that she regrets it fully.I don’t like seeing the regret in her eyes and I would never wish the regret on anyone else.
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That sort of regret is very common- abortion causes undue suffering to all persons involved (except the abortionist:mad: ) including the father. The man really doesn’t have much say in the situation either. If the woman has the baby even though the man wanted an abortion, the man has to pay child support. If the woman has an abortion even though the man wanted the child, then that’s unfair too. There are plenty of cases where the woman is pressured into the abortion by the man, where the woman loses her say.

Also to be considered is the abuse scenario- a man who abuses, say, his stepdaughter. Abortion gives the man an easy out and keeps the relationship a secret, as long as he can keep the girl intimidated.:mad: :mad: :mad:
 
Murder will happen no matter what.

This doesn’t mean we should legalize murder.

Same for abortion.
 
Scottgun said:
Wrong. No one has the right to kill another innocent human being. Abortion IS setting yourself up as an authority over someone else’s body–the baby. And it’s not exclusively a religious argument and groups like Atheists for Life prove that.
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When you claim the right to force a woman to carry a child she does not want to, you are silencing her, and forcing your views upon her. You are of course exercising authority over her body. I did not say it was strictly a religious issue, but of course it is proposed mostly by religiously motivated persons, and of those, almost exclusively reactionary right religious believers.

The issue remains when a fetus can be declared human. I personally believe life begins at conception. I have no idea when such a life is declared a human being. So far it has not reached the womb. The impact on any number of other legal issues is seldom addressed by the far right.

I remain in the majority of Catholics on this issue. It is a difficult and painful one for us all.
 
IAmEdmund said:
Murder is an alternative??

Where are these rights for the CHILD to choose his/her own desitny, based on their beleifs??

Oh wait… they can’t form any… they are the silenced dead.
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It is not murder, at least in this country and in most of the world. Pejorative words do not help the discussion.

The point is somebody’s rights are going to be violated. We have so far opted that the functioning adult is to be preferred up to a point in this difficult issue.

To suggest that the situation is a sad one, and that abortion is a cruel and unhappy choice is true. To rant convinces no one, and simply fans the flames of extremism and causes people to go out and do things which land them in prison as common criminals themselves.

The unfortunate thing is that present Catholic teaching against birth control leaves the Church with virtually no alternative to help women in need other than to offer to support their pregnancy and take the child. Such is not a solution for many. Would that we could offer people safer and better means to avoid pregnancy when they are not ready for that responsibility. We cannot of course, since we have gotten into such a silly mess regarding birth control. The so-called natural method is but a pretense. It’s just birth control with a new name. And sadly, not nearly effective enough to be used by all.
 
CapIV said:
By being Pro-abortion, you are setting yourself as an authority over the body of the unborn.

Abortion is the ultimate case of imposing a belief on another. Abortionists kill children and rationalize it by either saying that the children “aren’t people” or that the children are just “part of the mother”. Being anti-abortion is not only for religious peoples, it is for whoever wants to save the lives of children.

If we are going to end abortion, it is time to stop being so wishy washy, and compromise none.

ALL pro-abortionists are gravely disordered. One should be no more “accepting” of this sort of behavior than we would be expected to be “accepting” of genocide.
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It seems you are being particularly authoritative yourself when you insist that in your opinion all pro-abortionists are ‘gravely disordered.’ By the way, much as you may wish it to be so, it is not. Nobody is pro-abortion. Your attempt to use code words is one reason why your rhetoric carries no weight.

I cannot be wishwashy. I speak for me. I am past the time of child bearing, so one can say I can easily say that I would not abort. The truth is, could I, I would not. I believe in the spirit that enters life at the first joining of sperm and egg. Yet, I do not condemn anyone for believing differently. I leave it to God to decide if someone is wrong here.

The complete and utter disdain of the woman is troubling in the extreme and seems a basic holdover from the earliest old paternalistic beliefs that women are by nature evil and must be controlled by men. This goes back to Eve, and many here would agree that Eve was the evil tempted one who led Adam astray.

I personally urge every means possible to reduce unwanted pregnancy by means short of abortion. I fully support contraceptive use, and adoption. I will not set myself up as moral police on this issue.

What is morally reprehensible to me as a human being is the steps that some ultra right wing fundamentalist Catholics are willing to follow. I have read more than a few posts by women who have been told by doctors not to have unprotected sex because of serious life-threatening consequences should they become pregnant. They “trust” in God and continue, much the same way that Jehovah’s witnesses refuse blood transfusions. It is simply mental illness to tempt God in this way.

Your attempt to paint all pro-choice people as being engaged in genocide is both unfortunate and pejorative. It serves no purpose and does not help the discussion.
 
SpiritMeadow said:
It seems you are being particularly authoritative yourself when you insist that in your opinion all pro-abortionists are ‘gravely disordered.’ By the way, much as you may wish it to be so, it is not. Nobody is pro-abortion. Your attempt to use code words is one reason why your rhetoric carries no weight.

I cannot be wishwashy. I speak for me. I am past the time of child bearing, so one can say I can easily say that I would not abort. The truth is, could I, I would not. I believe in the spirit that enters life at the first joining of sperm and egg. Yet, I do not condemn anyone for believing differently. I leave it to God to decide if someone is wrong here.

The complete and utter disdain of the woman is troubling in the extreme and seems a basic holdover from the earliest old paternalistic beliefs that women are by nature evil and must be controlled by men. This goes back to Eve, and many here would agree that Eve was the evil tempted one who led Adam astray.

I personally urge every means possible to reduce unwanted pregnancy by means short of abortion. I fully support contraceptive use, and adoption. I will not set myself up as moral police on this issue.

What is morally reprehensible to me as a human being is the steps that some ultra right wing fundamentalist Catholics are willing to follow. I have read more than a few posts by women who have been told by doctors not to have unprotected sex because of serious life-threatening consequences should they become pregnant. They “trust” in God and continue, much the same way that Jehovah’s witnesses refuse blood transfusions. It is simply mental illness to tempt God in this way.

Your attempt to paint all pro-choice people as being engaged in genocide is both unfortunate and pejorative. It serves no purpose and does not help the discussion.
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Could not have said it better myself. 👍
 
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