Does the welfare system/state make people feel more useless?

[Black_Rose]

I wanted to start a new topic on this: some have alleged that the welfare state demeans the poor.

I will just post response I made in previous threads as a primer for this thread:

Regarding the poor being “useless” doesn’t their financial state already indicate that, to put it quite bluntly? One reason is that they are poor is the lack a stable income source, and that is because the labor market does not deem their labor valuable, so in a sense their poverty is a value judgment from the market about the lack of any valuable innate talent or trainable skills. So the notion that a welfare state increase the perception of worthlessness among the poor and unemployed is ridiculous especially when the labor market already made that judgment.

…

They do not need to told by anyone that they are incapable of taking care of themselves and need “to be taken care of by their fellow citizens”. They already realize that themselves since they are aware that they do not valuable skills to derive income from labor or assets that provide steady cash flows to finance a dignified livelihood. (For instance, receiving food from a food bank is not dignified livelihood since it is rather humiliating.)

Now seriously, what could they actually give if they are unable to materially provide for themselves and their immediate family?

 

[edwest2]

The welfare program began as a desire to address poverty in America. It was not meant to be a multi-generational entitlement program. A little background history is required to understand the intent of the program:

welfareinfo.org/history/

God bless,
Ed

 

[jilly4ski]

I am hesitant to jump in here, because of my specific circumstances, but here we go.

I am on “welfare” specifically Food Stamps, Medicaid and the WIC program. Do these programs make me feel useless? in some ways yes in others no.

We are on these programs because we moved so I could attend law school, unfortunately for my husband, the city where I attend law school is (and has been) in a severe depression with losing jobs and population. It took him 6 months just to find a low paying non skilled job, even though he has a double major, BS and BA. Since I am in school I do not work and we just could not afford to pay our bills at $8-9 dollars an hour, which is what he gets for being a security guard at different sites.

Now the worst at making one feel useless is probably WIC. (maybe it is just me, because I agree with the goals of the program itself ) When I go in for my checks I an often there for 3 hours at a time. There is nothing like waiting in a depressing office for 3 hours to make one feel useless. Also (probably because of the demographic they deal with the most, unfortunately the graduation rates in the area highschools are atrocious, close to 50% in the city schools) you get talked to like you have no or little education and don’t know the basics of nutrition and safety. (though I must say this might just be NY, because I think I felt the same when we spend all afternoon at the DMV )

Medicaid and food stamps are better, they allow us to care for our family without worrying too much while I get my education and then become a taxpayer (in a high bracket hopefully ). We only have to register through the mail every 6 months or so, and only had to spend one afternoon in the social services building, instead of every 3 months.

When my husband was unemployed it was probably the hardest on him, (so this is not necessarily the welfare state, but rather just the economic circumstances at the time). He felt useless and that he couldn’t provide for us, and that is difficult for most people.

For us, since we are actively working to get out of the condition where we need the help, I don’t generally feel useless, except of course when I am spending my day at the WIC office, or when I worry about what people will think at the grocery store when I use the WIC checks or the food stamp card. I keep busy with school work and watching my son (no daycare, since my husband works a graveyard shift right now to allow us to avoid daycare), and he keeps busy either watching our son or sleeping when I am home. If we weren’t so busy, my feelings might be different on whether I felt useless.

 

[St_Francis]

I would say yes, and part of the reason is precisely what your attitude shows: when the idea socially is that the worth of the person is tied in to money and earning power, and a person does not have money or earning power, then, Surprise! the person will end up feeling worthless.

What can poor people do? They can help others. First of all, we are not solely materials beings, we are also spiritual beings, and as I showed in my example of a paralyzed nun, even those who cannot move can still help others. Other poor people can also help others in this way. But even on a human level, most poor people can do things to help out their neighbors. They can do the laundry for an elderly person, they can run an errand for a pregnant neighbor, etc. They can visit the elderly in nursing homes, volunteer at soup kitchens and hospitals.

All of these are things which ought to be encouraged, because sitting around and doing nothing except waiting for the check to come in merely reinforces the material idea that they are worthless.

 

[St_Francis]

In addition to the self=perceptions of the poor, there is the perception of others. When we “give” in a remote way–when money is taken out for taxes we don’t ever even have the money–then the poor just become a number. And when we think about people in terms of their ability to earn money, they become “worthless” in our eyes as well. Additionally, their problems become merely a lack of money. The poor become blank-faced numbers without worth and without money whom we give money to because everyone seems to think that is the right thing to do, and that takes care of any obligation that we have towards them. There is no reason for caritas, because the government has taken care of those in need.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Yes, taking from others without giving back kills the soul of a man. And being forced to give to others who aren’t giving back anything makes the men being forced resentful and angry.

It is anti-Biblical to make the government your Father.

It is wrong.

God wants us all to help others and also to help ourselves.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Yes, taking from others without giving back kills the soul of a man. And being forced to give to others who aren’t giving back anything makes the men being forced resentful and angry.

It is anti-Biblical to make the government your Father.

It is wrong.

God wants us all to help others and also to help ourselves.

People cannot help them selves if they are robed of the means of production.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

No one here in this country has been robbed of the means of production. Not unless the government takes it away from them. Take your communist utopia and visit Cuba.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

No one here in this country has been robbed of the means of production. Not unless the government takes it away from them. Take your communist utopia and visit Cuba.

You don’t know what communism is, you don’t the what the means of production is, you don’t know what it means fundamentally to have property, and you don’t know what the church teaches in terms of economy and the nature of the state, and you obviously don’t know whats going on around you. I am not a communist. I represent natural human rights. The theological evidence that supports my position has been posted on numerous occasions. I really don’t care if you cannot accept it. Calling me a communist, amounts to nothing more than a red herring and a straw-man.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Yes, I do, and I understand more than you do. But I won’t waste my time in fruitless arguments. “Red herring” and “straw-man” are logical fallacies that do not apply in this case, since we are not having a debate.

You have zero real-life experience with these systems. It’s pretty obvious that you are in love with your theories and words. Talked to anyone from Eastern Europe or the former Soviet Union? I have. They don’t have good things to say about communism or “socialism” as you want to call it. That’s just one short step away from the full control of the state.

“Means of production.” Snort.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Yes, I do, and I understand more than you do. But I won’t waste my time in fruitless arguments. “Red herring” and “straw-man” are logical fallacies that do not apply in this case, since we are not having a debate.

You have zero real-life experience with these systems. It’s pretty obvious that you are in love with your theories and words. Talked to anyone from Eastern Europe or the former Soviet Union? I have. They don’t have good things to say about communism or “socialism” as you want to call it. That’s just one short step away from the full control of the state.

“Means of production.” Snort.

You are saying that i support communism and socialism by equating my defense of basic natural human rights with socialism or communism. Thats where the red-herring and straw-man exists in words, since you obviously don’t understand the difference or you intend to make synonymous the two because you have a deceptive agenda. I have not said anything in support of socialism or communism as defined by the church. And whether you think we are having a debate or not is irrelevant to the fact that you are talking fallacies, since one doesn’t have to be debating in-order to express a logical fallacy or something that is untrue.

 

[Aboveallbereal]

Yes, taking from others without giving back kills the soul of a man. And being forced to give to others who aren’t giving back anything makes the men being forced resentful and angry.

It is anti-Biblical to make the government your Father.

It is wrong.

God wants us all to help others and also to help ourselves.

Succinct, morally correct and healthy viewpoint.

Long term welfare is demeaning to those in receipt of it and intrusive on those forced to fund it.

 

[Aboveallbereal]

You are saying that i support communism and socialism by equating my defense of basic natural human rights with socialism or communism. Thats where the red-herring and straw-man exists in words, since you obviously don’t understand the difference or you intend to make synonymous the two because you have a deceptive agenda. I have not said anything in support of socialism or communism as defined by the church. And whether you think we are having a debate or not is irrelevant to the fact that you are talking fallacies, since one doesn’t have to be debating in-order to express a logical fallacy or something that is untrue.

There is no logical fallacy in equating socialism and communism. They are synonyms.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

There is no logical fallacy in equating socialism and communism. They are synonyms.

I never said there was a fallacy in equating socialism with communism.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Long term welfare is demeaningto those in receipt of…

Not having a Job and not having a dignified wage for which a person can work for is demeaning to human beings. Job-seekers allowance and other benefits is morally and legally necessary and is a human right in a society that cannot provide work for those with out Jobs or are unable to work.

it and intrusive on those forced to fund it.

The Church says otherwise. Intrusiveness is not necessarily wrong; it depends on the context and the reason for that intrusion. In this case the context is about the value and dignity of human life whether you like it or not; and thankfully the power of the state frees me from the worry of wondering whether you give a dame about the value of your fellow human beings.

 

[St_Francis]

Not having a Job and not having a dignified wage for which a person can work for is demeaning to human beings. Job-seekers allowance and other benefits is morally and legally necessary and is a human right in a society that cannot provide work for those with out Jobs or are unable to work.

The Church says otherwise. Intrusiveness is not necessarily wrong; it depends on the context and the reason for that intrusion. In this case the context is about the value and dignity of human life whether you like it or not; and thankfully the power of the state frees me from the worry of wondering whether you give a dame about the value of your fellow human beings.

MOM2,
Have you read Centissimus Annus? (might be wrong on the spelling).

The thing about the Church is the She instructs us in a way that keeps us in the middle–that’s why Her teachings seem at times to contradict each other. While the Industrial Revolution was happening, there was a lot of abuse of workers. Three-year-olds had to get jobs or their families could not afford to feed them.

Now we have a different situation. Workers formed unions, laws were made to prptect them in many ways. Now we have drug addicts on the dole/welfare (which is not to say that all people on welfare are drug addicts!!!), is it right? Is it right that a woman can kick her husband out of the family because she knows she can get welfare benefits so she doesn’t need him?

It is important to understand that Church teachings keep us on the road, and that a person can get off the road both by too little and too much. In order to stay on the road, we need to losten to both sides.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

MOM2,
Have you read Centissimus Annus? (might be wrong on the spelling).

The thing about the Church is the She instructs us in a way that keeps us in the middle–that’s why Her teachings seem at times to contradict each other. While the Industrial Revolution was happening, there was a lot of abuse of workers. Three-year-olds had to get jobs or their families could not afford to feed them.

Now we have a different situation. Workers formed unions, laws were made to prptect them in many ways. Now we have drug addicts on the dole/welfare (which is not to say that all people on welfare are drug addicts!!!), is it right? Is it right that a woman can kick her husband out of the family because she knows she can get welfare benefits so she doesn’t need him?

It is important to understand that Church teachings keep us on the road, and that a person can get off the road both by too little and too much. In order to stay on the road, we need to losten to both sides.

There is no contradiction. The contradiction is in your interpretation. You are using the fact that there are abusers in-order to justify abuse. The church teachings on job-seekers allowance stands to day just as it stood in the past. Its a human right, not a social construct limited to a period in time; and to say that people out of work don’t need job-seekers allowance is just ridiculous and ignorant. And as for Drugs, you don’t know why people are really taking drugs, you are simply drawing on possibilities that serve your agenda by making the poor and the oppressed look like undeserving immoral lazy people. This is just an accusation with no substance. The fact that there are selfish and lazy people in the world is irrelevant. the fact is there are millions of people without work and a dignified wage is whats relevant. Thats the facts; and those people need job-seekers allowance whether you like it or not. Yes there are poor people on drugs. Why? Perhaps because they are born in to situations that undermine their dignity and value as human beings and thus some of them deal with that by turning to drugs for a solution in order to escape from the selfishness and abuse of society. In-doing so they become addicted. I do not look down on people like that; who knows what evil abuse they have been through? I pray for their salvation form selfish abusive people so they don’t ever have to feel the need to fall in to drug addiction ever again. But of course you will not find that agreeable since it is in your agenda to make people who are out of work look like slobs just so that you don’t have to pay for their dignity or feel guilty when they stave, or take responsibility for the common good in general. The way you think is repugnant and is quite simply a twisted perversion of true reality.

 

[St_Francis]

So you haven’t read Centissimus Annus?

There is no contradiction. The contradiction is in your interpretation. You are using the fact that there are abusers in-order to justify abuse. The church teachings on job-seekers allowance stands to day just as it stood in the past. Its a human right, not a social construct limited to a period in time; and to say that people out of work don’t need job-seekers allowance is just ridiculous and ignorant. And as for Drugs, you don’t know why people are really taking drugs, you are simply drawing on possibilities that serve your agenda by making the poor and the oppressed look like undeserving immoral lazy people. This is just an accusation with no substance. The fact that there are selfish and lazy people in the world is irrelevant. the fact is there are millions of people without work and a dignified wage is whats relevant. Thats the facts; and those people need job-seekers allowance whether you like it or not. Yes there are poor people on drugs. Why? Perhaps because they are born in to situations that undermine their dignity and value as human beings and thus some of them deal with that by turning to drugs for a solution in order to escape from the selfishness and abuse of society. In-doing so they become addicted. I do not look down on people like that; who knows what evil abuse they have been through? I pray for their salvation form selfish abusive people so they don’t ever have to feel the need to fall in to drug addiction ever again. But of course you will not find that agreeable since it is in your agenda to make people who are out of work look like slobs just so that you don’t have to pay for their dignity or feel guilty when they stave, or take responsibility for the common good in general. The way you think is repugnant and is quite simply a twisted perversion of true reality.

 

[athair_siochain]

I wanted to start a new topic on this: some have alleged that the welfare state demeans the poor.

I will just post response I made in previous threads as a primer for this thread:

Regarding the poor being “useless” doesn’t their financial state already indicate that, to put it quite bluntly? One reason is that they are poor is the lack a stable income source, and that is because the labor market does not deem their labor valuable, so in a sense their poverty is a value judgment from the market about the lack of any valuable innate talent or trainable skills. So the notion that a welfare state increase the perception of worthlessness among the poor and unemployed is ridiculous especially when the labor market already made that judgment.

…

They do not need to told by anyone that they are incapable of taking care of themselves and need “to be taken care of by their fellow citizens”. They already realize that themselves since they are aware that they do not valuable skills to derive income from labor or assets that provide steady cash flows to finance a dignified livelihood. (For instance, receiving food from a food bank is not dignified livelihood since it is rather humiliating.)

Now seriously, what could they actually give if they are unable to materially provide for themselves and their immediate family?

We live in a system that forces people to work, we are slaves to the rich and powerful. the welfare handed out is a kind of life jacket. also protects the rich from revolutionary activities,

Those on welfare need a job to be better off, not worse off,
those from the top end of town will try to keep the poor in their place, low wages handed out by greedy employers, ensure the workers never get a chance to better themselves,
Those poor are always living on Struggle Street.

 

[Captain_America]

I’m in much agreement with the above poster.

I believe there is an element of FEAR in this; employers are afraid workers will lack sufficient incentive unless they are paid a good deal less than they could be paid. The unspoken big question here is, what would happen if more profit went to labor?

It is interesting that the current economic system tends to favor the greedy. Most people aren’t very greedy—it comes and it goes. Most people need a variety of incentives (honor, appreciation, etc.) as well as just cash.