Does the welfare system/state make people feel more useless?

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So do you do any of the hard, menial work? Are you empathetic to your workers? Do you envy those who do the “hard work” and would be willing to trade positions with them? Yes, they have choices. but they neither desirable or easy.

It is easy to be detached from the material adversity of the workers such as having more physically grueling tasks and lower pay than management, and still condescendingly condemn them for being “lazy”.
In my company, the owners and the employees do the same type of work. We all do whatever needs to be done to serve our customers. I have some very good people that I work with and that is my mentality, who understand that they are sucessful if the company is sucessful.

Do I work hard? Yes at times I do. There is not an employee that I have ever had that I demanded more from him/her than I did myself. That is the way alot of bosses are in this country. Not all of them but the best ones usually came up through the ranks and understands the work and responsibilities of those below them.

One question, what is so bad about working hard? I have worked hard my entire life no matter what job I had whether it was working on a farm, bailing hay in the summer, working as a stockboy at the local grocery store in the evenings and even at night, being a contract forester, a member of the United States Marine Corps, going to college, working as a field service technician, a electrician, a service manager, engineering manager, product manager and now a small business owner. In every facit of my life I have worked hard. I have climbed the latter at the companies I worked for by working harder than anyone else. Quite honestly I wouldn’t want to have a job that didn’t require working hard and heavy. It would be boring and the day would stretch out to forever. In fact it drives me crazy when it gets slow at work. I would prefer it to be full speed all day. There is nothing wrong with working hard for what you get. In fact it is the right thing to do.

When I worked for minimum wage, I work just as hard for my paycheck as I do today. That is just how I was raised I guess.

What I am saying. Work hard at what you do and normally good things will happen. They may not happen immediately, but they will come. I wouldn’t be where I am at without being willing to do whatever it took to take care of what I was reponsible for. If it meant cleaning toilets, walking miles upon miles each day, working in adverse and even dangerous conditions, working sometimes 12, 16, 22+ hour days and at times working around the clock a few days to get the job done. I did what it took. Do I make millions no. But I make a comfortable living that meets my needs and I am happy with where I am at. In fact, i do not care if I do make millions, that is not my goal. My goal is to take care of my family. As long as I am doing that then I am happy.

God bless.
 
The constant emphasis that the poor deserve to be poor is ridiculous and does no justice to your position. You are creating a straw-man and you are committing the fallacy of composition. Your argument appears to imply that because there are some workers who lazy around, that therefore this can be applied to poor people in general. You are trying your very hardest to make the poor look bad in-order to justify your position. I see a great degree of dishonesty in that attitude. There are many reasons why people are replaced by others such as the level of natural human ability as opposed to a lazy attitude, and who knows what hidden physiological or psychological impediment that may be holding them back. Your black white argument is conveniently ignoring the many shades of Gray and colour in-between.
You are trying to imply something that isn’t there so stop doing it. lazy and poor or rich and hard working are not necessarily compatable. I know many people who are lazy that make a decent living because they know the right person here or there.

But I also know a good number of people that you would call poor that work hard, but don’t make as much as they should, but they are happy with what they are getting and do not want to do any better. Not everyone is chasing after wealth, my friend. Most of us out here are just trying to make a living and that is all we truly care about.

What we do not like is that there is a group of people that live on welfare, who are able body folks, that are milking the system because they do not want to work. We have a problem with that no matter if we are rich or poor. I don’t want my money going to someone milking the system, but I do not have a problem with my money going to someone that needs it. That is the way most people are.

Quite honestly I think that you owe St. Francis an apology for accusing him of something that he didn’t say.
 
You are trying to imply something that isn’t there so stop doing it. lazy and poor or rich and hard working are not necessarily compatable. I know many people who are lazy that make a decent living because they know the right person here or there.

But I also know a good number of people that you would call poor that work hard, but don’t make as much as they should, but they are happy with what they are getting and do not want to do any better. Not everyone is chasing after wealth, my friend. Most of us out here are just trying to make a living and that is all we truly care about.

What we do not like is that there is a group of people that live on welfare, who are able body folks, that are milking the system because they do not want to work. We have a problem with that no matter if we are rich or poor. I don’t want my money going to someone milking the system, but I do not have a problem with my money going to someone that needs it. That is the way most people are.

Quite honestly I think that you owe St. Francis an apology for accusing him of something that he didn’t say.
 
What I am saying. **Work hard at what you do and normally good things will happen. They may not happen immediately, but they will come. **I wouldn’t be where I am at without being willing to do whatever it took to take care of what I was reponsible for. If it meant cleaning toilets, walking miles upon miles each day, working in adverse and even dangerous conditions, working sometimes 12, 16, 22+ hour days and at times working around the clock a few days to get the job done. I did what it took. Do I make millions no. But I make a comfortable living that meets my needs and I am happy with where I am at. In fact, i do not care if I do make millions, that is not my goal. My goal is to take care of my family. As long as I am doing that then I am happy.
The constant emphasis that the poor deserve to be poor is ridiculous and does no justice to your position. You are creating a straw-man and you are committing the fallacy of composition. Your argument appears to imply that because there are some workers who lazy around, that therefore this can be applied to poor people in general. You are trying your very hardest to make the poor look bad in-order to justify your position. I see a great degree of dishonesty in that attitude. There are many reasons why people are replaced by others such as the level of natural human ability as opposed to a lazy attitude, and who knows what hidden physiological or psychological impediment that may be holding them back. Your black white argument is conveniently ignoring the many shades of Gray and colour in-between.
Those two posts seem inconsistent: in the first response directed towards me, you affirm a strong link between hard work and “good things” happening, but your second one you directly deny a strong link by acknowledge that a “good number of people” who “work hard” are “poor”. Of course, you second post best reflects reality. So which is it?

You may rebut that reality is not that concrete, but I will ask this question. Assuming that “hard work” can be accurately quantified, what do you think will be the r^2 on a simple linear regression of “hard work” vs income?
 
Would someone on this thread who supports government welfare tell me one thing?

Who or what do you think “the government” is? What makes up “the government?” Who is in charge of “the government?”

I think it would be good if we all understand what each side believes that “the government” actually means.
 
Those two posts seem inconsistent: in the first response directed towards me, you affirm a strong link between hard work and “good things” happening, but your second one you directly deny a strong link by acknowledge that a “good number of people” who “work hard” are “poor”. Of course, you second post best reflects reality. So which is it?

You may rebut that reality is not that concrete, but I will ask this question. Assuming that “hard work” can be accurately quantified, what do you think will be the r^2 on a simple linear regression of “hard work” vs income?
It is not really a contradiction, if you look at it correctly. If you want to move up in your company or make your small business potentially more successful it requires work and effort.

But there are people out there that are quite content with their position in life. Even though they are not making a great deal of money, the money they are making meets their economic needs and they are content with that. So there is no contradiction.

The problem many people have is that they equate happiness with wealth that just is not reality. There are many a begger that are quite happy with the existence they are living and there are many a rich person that is not happy.

I know and am related to many people who do a job that doesn’t make them a great amount of money but they love doing that job and they love the life that they are able to live. They live within their means and don’t stretch past that point. There is nothing wrong with this mentality, they just have priorities other than wealth and having alot of things.
 
One of the distortions of our society is the widely held and promoted belief that money or wealth = happiness. As if when our bank account total increases, we will automatically achieve happiness and satisfaction.

But I would say that even very wealthy people are not truly pursuing money or wealth for its own sake, but it is almost a by-product of what they are doing. Take Bill Gates for example. He didn’t set out to make a bajillion dollars. He is still merely a geek’s geek. The money has never been the mission.

Even Donald Trump, who seems to be all about money, gets his enjoyment more from the power and the excitement than the dollars themselves.

Americans can choose the level of wealth they wish to achieve, and if they stop climbing the ladder at any point, that is their own choice. Wealth does NOT bring happiness and I have a clear example of this in my family.

You know the old saw, “How much money is enough?”

“Just a little bit more.

a lot of people know that grasping for more money is always chasing the wind.

Only JESUS brings joy, not happiness. And his offering is FREE to us, it cost him his life.
 
It is not really a contradiction, if you look at it correctly. If you want to move up in your company or make your small business potentially more successful it requires work and effort.

But there are people out there that are quite content with their position in life. Even though they are not making a great deal of money, the money they are making meets their economic needs and they are content with that. So there is no contradiction.

The problem many people have is that they equate happiness with wealth that just is not reality. There are many a begger that are quite happy with the existence they are living and there are many a rich person that is not happy.

I know and am related to many people who do a job that doesn’t make them a great amount of money but they love doing that job and they love the life that they are able to live. They live within their means and don’t stretch past that point. There is nothing wrong with this mentality, they just have priorities other than wealth and having alot of things.
Don’t evade my request; just answer my question: Assuming that “hard work” can be accurately quantified, what do you think will be the r^2 on a simple linear regression of “hard work” vs income?

I guess the reason for your evasion is so you can maintain rhetorical flexibility where you can deny a strong correlation between “hard work” and income when it is convenient, but you can invoke a strong correlation when you want to blame the financially insecure for laziness. So what proportion of the variance in income in the United States is due to the differences in work ethic? By declaring a number, you may deny yourself one of the aforementioned options.
 
Black_Rose, can you answer my question in post #63?

Who or what do you think “the government” is? What makes up “the government?” Who is in charge of “the government?”
 
Black_Rose, can you answer my question in post #63?

Who or what do you think “the government” is? What makes up “the government?” Who is in charge of “the government?”
I have to go now… will be back in a few hours:

But this may indirectly answer your questions from the perspective of normative political philosophy; it does not actually describe the current system of government. (This was from previous posts and I have the file on Word):

Socialists see poverty, not as the result of individual failure, but injustices caused by social and economic phenomenon amendable to amelioration through state intervention. Socialists seek to govern by the principle salus populi suprema lex esto (the welfare of the people is the supreme law) by identifying with interests of the massive proletariat who can be rural peasants, urban factory workers, or, in the case of the developed economics in the modern age of globalization, workers in the service sector. The justification for abandoning the spirit of voluntarism is one of pragmatism and utilitarianism since one cannot realistically expect most people to selflessly surrender their economic surplus to serve the needs of the poor. While humble and sincere voluntarism are morally commendable, it is unrealistic to expect that these means can provide satisfactory funding for social agendas even if it is assumed that voluntarism is more efficient than state programs.

In order to grant the right of a decent and secure standard of living for its citizens, a regime of redistributive taxation is necessary. This right would not be contingent on the condition of the labor market or the availability of generous charitable contributions. Since this becomes a right, it therefore removes the stigma of accepting aid as it is acknowledged as an entitlement not the consequences of personal inferiority and inadequacy. Government-financed programs providing “a decent and secure standard of living” include universal health care, social security, free education, and unemployment insurance. Therefore, successful governance will be defined by using the public largess to efficiently provide public goods efficiently and justly because the incentives of the free market do not provide adequate motivation for one to do so. The availability of social capital may limit this approach since it is only successful in countries with a common culture and homogenous ethnic groups such as the Scandinavian welfare states.

Friedrich von Hayek gloomily predicted the resurgence of serfdom as an undesirable consequence of an expanded state because it violated the liberty of its citizens by extracting resources through taxation. But unlike feudal lords of medieval times who used their economic surplus for conspicuous consumption while neglecting the needs of their serfs, the state would spend the money in the interest of public welfare.

In order for socialism to be successful, a culture of secular bureaucracy is needed where administrative competence and technical aptitude is highly valued since these are necessary to manage the complex affairs of the state in order to satisfy the people’s desires. The members of this bureaucracy are distinguished by their intellectual work in contrast to the masses earn their living through manual labor. The members of this bureaucracy are not motivated by private economic gain, a desire to generate an ostentatious display of “charity”, or from a humble, selfless love of their neighbor, but from the self-gratification they derive from exercising their technical competence to achieve the end of administering a prosperous state. This division of labor is even legitimized and acknowledged; for instance, the German Democratic Republic’s Coat of Arms features compass, a hammer, and a grains of wheat respectively symbolizing the union of the intelligentsia, the factory workers, and farmers providing for the common welfare. But this detachment would acceptable since it would be narrower than the wealth inequality inherent in capitalism and free market caused by an asymmetry of market power by those owning capital and possessing highly-demanded skills. This culture diverges from the American perception of government and bureaucracy as a cumbersome, inefficient manifestation of “big government” that unjustly trifles with the liberty of its citizens.

One advantage this approach is that is able to effectively raise funds through taxation or by issuing sovereign debt as it credit worthy entity although the latter can be undermined by a history of default resulting in the bond market requiring a higher premium in the form of high interest rates. In addition, because of its emphasis on bureaucratic and technical competence, the state has an ability process and assimilates information enabling it to understand the current circumstances and intervene effectively. This gives the state the unprecedented ability to coordinate resources on a scale that would be impossible through the free market or private charity.
 
Don’t evade my request; just answer my question: Assuming that “hard work” can be accurately quantified, what do you think will be the r^2 on a simple linear regression of “hard work” vs income?

I guess the reason for your evasion is so you can maintain rhetorical flexibility where you can deny a strong correlation between “hard work” and income when it is convenient, but you can invoke a strong correlation when you want to blame the financially insecure for laziness. So what proportion of the variance in income in the United States is due to the differences in work ethic? By declaring a number, you may deny yourself one of the aforementioned options.
I didn’t evade your question I answered it. You just don’t want to accept it for it destroys your belief that people are poor because they are forced to be by all of the evil rich people our there. There are two types of hard working people out there. Those who are happy with their station in life and those that want more. Those who are happy with their place in life, you couldn’t promote them to a higher position without them threaten to quit. They just don’t want the headache that comes with higher positions.

My previous point was this. If you want to move up then work for it. I can guarantee you one thing, if you sit on your hands and not produce what is expected of you then you will get either fired or left in a spot that has no future except for what you do. Lazy people do not get promoted. If there is a layoff they are the first that gets cut.
 
I didn’t evade your question I answered it. You just don’t want to accept it for it destroys your belief that people are poor because they are forced to be by all of the evil rich people our there. There are two types of hard working people out there. Those who are happy with their station in life and those that want more. Those who are happy with their place in life, you couldn’t promote them to a higher position without them threaten to quit. They just don’t want the headache that comes with higher positions.
I asked for a quantification for your beliefs.

But regarding my alleged belief that “that people are poor because they are forced to be by all of the evil rich people our there” where I have posted this specifically on this forum?
 
I asked for a quantification for your beliefs.
Actually no you didn’t. You challenged a potential contradiction, so you need to get you questions squared away. Also I have also posted that I am not using data but experience. I don’t know if there is data like this out there. All I know is my experience as an employee and manager as well as my unique position to work with and talk about these issues with individuals from the bottom of a company to the top.
But regarding my alleged belief that “that people are poor because they are forced to be by all of the evil rich people our there” where I have posted this specifically on this forum?
So you do not believe this? You haven’t came out and said this straight out but you definitely imply it especially by challenging my comments you have kinda supported the position of the original poster I was responding to who made comments like this. You know “birds of a feather, flock together” type of thing.
 
I have to go now… will be back in a few hours:

But this may indirectly answer your questions from the perspective of normative political philosophy; it does not actually describe the current system of government. (This was from previous posts and I have the file on Word):

Socialists see poverty, not as the result of individual failure, but injustices caused by social and economic phenomenon amendable to amelioration through state intervention. Socialists seek to govern by the principle salus populi suprema lex esto (the welfare of the people is the supreme law) by identifying with interests of the massive proletariat who can be rural peasants, urban factory workers, or, in the case of the developed economics in the modern age of globalization, workers in the service sector. The justification for abandoning the spirit of voluntarism is one of pragmatism and utilitarianism since one cannot realistically expect most people to selflessly surrender their economic surplus to serve the needs of the poor. While humble and sincere voluntarism are morally commendable, it is unrealistic to expect that these means can provide satisfactory funding for social agendas even if it is assumed that voluntarism is more efficient than state programs.

In order to grant the right of a decent and secure standard of living for its citizens, a regime of redistributive taxation is necessary. This right would not be contingent on the condition of the labor market or the availability of generous charitable contributions. Since this becomes a right, it therefore removes the stigma of accepting aid as it is acknowledged as an entitlement not the consequences of personal inferiority and inadequacy. Government-financed programs providing “a decent and secure standard of living” include universal health care, social security, free education, and unemployment insurance. Therefore, successful governance will be defined by using the public largess to efficiently provide public goods efficiently and justly because the incentives of the free market do not provide adequate motivation for one to do so. The availability of social capital may limit this approach since it is only successful in countries with a common culture and homogenous ethnic groups such as the Scandinavian welfare states.

Friedrich von Hayek gloomily predicted the resurgence of serfdom as an undesirable consequence of an expanded state because it violated the liberty of its citizens by extracting resources through taxation. But unlike feudal lords of medieval times who used their economic surplus for conspicuous consumption while neglecting the needs of their serfs, the state would spend the money in the interest of public welfare.

In order for socialism to be successful, a culture of secular bureaucracy is needed where administrative competence and technical aptitude is highly valued since these are necessary to manage the complex affairs of the state in order to satisfy the people’s desires. The members of this bureaucracy are distinguished by their intellectual work in contrast to the masses earn their living through manual labor. The members of this bureaucracy are not motivated by private economic gain, a desire to generate an ostentatious display of “charity”, or from a humble, selfless love of their neighbor, but from the self-gratification they derive from exercising their technical competence to achieve the end of administering a prosperous state. This division of labor is even legitimized and acknowledged; for instance, the German Democratic Republic’s Coat of Arms features compass, a hammer, and a grains of wheat respectively symbolizing the union of the intelligentsia, the factory workers, and farmers providing for the common welfare. But this detachment would acceptable since it would be narrower than the wealth inequality inherent in capitalism and free market caused by an asymmetry of market power by those owning capital and possessing highly-demanded skills. This culture diverges from the American perception of government and bureaucracy as a cumbersome, inefficient manifestation of “big government” that unjustly trifles with the liberty of its citizens.

One advantage this approach is that is able to effectively raise funds through taxation or by issuing sovereign debt as it credit worthy entity although the latter can be undermined by a history of default resulting in the bond market requiring a higher premium in the form of high interest rates. In addition, because of its emphasis on bureaucratic and technical competence, the state has an ability process and assimilates information enabling it to understand the current circumstances and intervene effectively. This gives the state the unprecedented ability to coordinate resources on a scale that would be impossible through the free market or private charity.
Bunch of gobbledy-gook. WHO are said bureaucrats? Exactly WHOM will be in power, in charge of your life and mine? Is it someone like Barack Obama? Like Bernadine Dorn? Bill Ayers? Even Van Jones? Who is it? Tell me who you trust to take charge over your very life.
 
Bunch of gobbledy-gook. WHO are said bureaucrats? Exactly WHOM will be in power, in charge of your life and mine? Is it someone like Barack Obama? Like Bernadine Dorn? Bill Ayers? Even Van Jones? Who is it? Tell me who you trust to take charge over your very life.
Agreed, nonsense prattle from someone who probably never had to meet a payroll. I’m glad I don’t live wherever he lives. I’d fire everyone I employ and move to a friendlier business environment that didn’t see the need to “redistribute” wealth as a goal. Which I actually did a few years ago.

As should be obvious to anyone, the most talented people aren’t working for the government.
 
Agreed, nonsense prattle from someone who probably never had to meet a payroll. I’m glad I don’t live wherever he lives. I’d fire everyone I employ and move to a friendlier business environment that didn’t see the need to “redistribute” wealth as a goal. Which I actually did a few years ago.

As should be obvious to anyone, the most talented people aren’t working for the government.
Where are you now? Hard to find anywhere on the planet where wealth re-distribution isn’t a main goal of government. That used to be the USA, but no longer.

All I am trying to do is draw attention to the fact that these socialists/marxists always seem to trust “the government” like a benevolent parent…that some institution formed by men would ever be wholly benevolent is a ridiculous proposition. The most idealistic are the youth, I used to be one so I know the mindset. I really did believe that everyone was intrinsically good. Then I got out there in the real world and found out that Yes Virginia, There is Evil and It Walks Among Us. A few years of paying taxes so that other people could sit on their asses on my dime took me the rest of the way…

I’m tired of all these airy-fairy discussions about “the government.” WHO are these people and what right do they think they have to tell me how much money I can make or whom I have to give it to? Who are they to decide what medications my family can get, or if they can get any at all? Why do liberals trust that someone else is more qualified to make these kinds of decisions? They seem to be stuck in childhood forever.
 
Where are you now? Hard to find anywhere on the planet where wealth re-distribution isn’t a main goal of government. That used to be the USA, but no longer.

All I am trying to do is draw attention to the fact that these socialists/marxists always seem to trust “the government” like a benevolent parent…that some institution formed by men would ever be wholly benevolent is a ridiculous proposition. The most idealistic are the youth, I used to be one so I know the mindset. I really did believe that everyone was intrinsically good. Then I got out there in the real world and found out that Yes Virginia, There is Evil and It Walks Among Us. A few years of paying taxes so that other people could sit on their asses on my dime took me the rest of the way…

I’m tired of all these airy-fairy discussions about “the government.” WHO are these people and what right do they think they have to tell me how much money I can make or whom I have to give it to? Who are they to decide what medications my family can get, or if they can get any at all? Why do liberals trust that someone else is more qualified to make these kinds of decisions? They seem to be stuck in childhood forever.
Let’s charitably assume that our socialist friends are academics of some sort without experience in making an honest living or with the problems faced by ordinary small businesses or even how a capitalist economy creates wealth.

There’s no reason I’ve ever seen to believe that the government knows what’s best for me; at all levels, I consider all politicians and civil servants talentless hacks and placeholders whose best contribution to governing is to do as little as possible and stay out of the way or at least stay bought.

And even if, against all possible odds, a philosopher-king got himself elected with his crystal ball and knew what was best for everyone, I still don’t want government setting one foot beyond the limits of power the public has given it.

That’s the difference in mindset between a citizen and a drone-on-the-dole.
 
Let’s charitably assume that our socialist friends are academics of some sort without experience in making an honest living or with the problems faced by ordinary small businesses or even how a capitalist economy creates wealth.

There’s no reason I’ve ever seen to believe that the government knows what’s best for me; at all levels, I consider all politicians and civil servants talentless hacks and placeholders whose best contribution to governing is to do as little as possible and stay out of the way or at least stay bought.
Could you define “wealth” for me?
 
Could you define “wealth” for me?
Yeah, its what people pay me for my services, its what I use to pay my employees, pay myself, pay the mortgage, insurance, food, taxes, fees, club dues, vet bills, polo pony stabling, Italian shotguns, charitable contribs and the other hundred things that I’m morally or legally responsible for.

Apparently, its also what you want to separate me from, so I also pay CPAs and tax lawyers to keep as much out of your hands as possible.
 
I think it does for some. I know that for me, I often feel useless because I have to rely on the welfare system. But I honestly have no choice. I am very much disabled and if it wasn’t for the welfare system, I’d be out on the streets in a cardboard box relying on soup kitchens for meals and homeless shelters for occasional shelter from storms.
 
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