Does this article (obviously from an Eastern Orthodox perspective) accurately represent Catholicism?

[Hesychios]

An off-shoot of the Russian Orthodox Church.

It is a self headed daughter church founded by Russian missionaries.

It actually has Romanian and Albanian dioceses (holdovers from when the old Russian Metroipolia was the official church in north America) as well as the Russian, Ruthenian, Ukrainian and mostly Anglo parishes in the main diocesan structures. Most of these worship in English and have a healthy proportion of native born citizens. There is also a diocese in Mexico and a strong presence in Canada, so there are also parishes with Spanish and French speaking congregations and monasteries.

I’m pretty sure you realize that the Ecumenical Patriarch denied the ROC’s ability to do this, declaring it a violation of Canon 28 of the Council of Chalcedon. So add it as yet one more Orthodox denomination in the US.

The EP doesn’t actually have any say in this, and the OCA is not a denomination (and I think perhaps you threw that out to be deliberately antagonistic and insulting). The OCA is in full communion with all other Orthodox including (gasp ! ) the EP itself. In fact I have seen Greek Orthodox, ACROD and Ukrainian Orthodox bishops (all under the omophorion of the EP) and priests concelebrate with OCA bishops and priests at large public gatherings in the USA.

This is a question of procedure, nothing more. It doesn’t even qualify as a schism of any sort.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You tend to not agree with Catholics on much of anything really. I don’t say that in a nasty tone, just a fact. You’re more into the Orthodox, specifically the Copts, etc. I agree with you about the unleavened bread. I can’t for the life of me understand how anyone could think that a heresy when Our Lord Himself used unleavened bread on the Passover the night of the upper room?

That’s fine, Gurney. I only made the statement to begin with to show that I am not motivated by a desire to win the favor of the EO, but nonetheless agree with them more than the Catholics on this occasion (or, rather, I agree with that position more than the most common position I have heard from Catholics). Again, if we were discussing a different issue (say, the supposed “heresy” of using unleavened bread) then my sympathies could be just the opposite. It really depends on what we’re talking about, so I felt Jam’s characterization to be a bit hasty.

 

[josephdaniel29]

An off-shoot of the Russian Orthodox Church.

I’m pretty sure you realize that the Ecumenical Patriarch denied the ROC’s ability to do this, declaring it a violation of Canon 28 of the Council of Chalcedon. So add it as yet one more Orthodox denomination in the US.

How many Catholic denominations are there here in the States? I know you have at least the Latin Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Maronite Catholic and Chaldean Catholic. That’s at least five. Did I miss any?

 

[dzheremi]

I should hope I would agree with the Orthodox on most things, as I am trying to become (Coptic) Orthodox. I’m just saying it’s not some sort of blind allegiance to everything asserted as the “Orthodox” position, as many of the things presented here on CAF as the Orthodox position are not so (as has happened in this very thread, oddly in the response to what are seen as Orthodox distortions of Catholicism).

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Let the polemics…begin!

How many Catholic denominations are there here in the States? I know you have at least the Latin Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Maronite Catholic and Chaldean Catholic. That’s at least five. Did I miss any?

 

[Hesychios]

I should hope I would agree with the Orthodox on most things, as I am trying to become (Coptic) Orthodox…

I have a strong interest in this church myself, and intend to visit them before the summer, if possible.

 

[GaryTaylor]

How many Catholic denominations are there here in the States? I know you have at least the Latin Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Maronite Catholic and Chaldean Catholic. That’s at least five. Did I miss any?

Zero, we don’t have Denominations in the Catholic Church. That only exists “outside” the CC.

 

[Hesychios]

How many Catholic denominations are there here in the States? I know you have at least the Latin Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Maronite Catholic and Chaldean Catholic. That’s at least five. Did I miss any?

All of the United States is covered in overlapping jurisdictions by bishops of these particular churches in the papal communion.

1. 
   *]Chaldean
   *]Latin
   *]Maronite
   *]Melkite
   *]Ruthenian
   *]Romanian
   *]Syrian
   *]Syro-Malabarese
   *]Ukrainian
   
   The Syro-Malankarese now have a bishop in the USA (since 2010), I seem to remember something about that but it doesn’t come up in the usual lists yet. That would be #10
   
   One probably should not include the Anglican Ordinariate, because the church does not regard it as a legitimate separate rite, but a variation of the Latin. But it could count as an ethnic subgroup under the same terms as the others, and for the same reasons. The issue is not too important yet for purposes of this discussion, there are so many other overlapping jurisdictions already and they might not get bishops of their own.
   
   There is (or are) a separate bishop for Opus Dei, which has a relatively new organizational type (personal prelature) that crosses diocesan bounds. I don’t know if any are resident in the USA. There might be only the one in Rome but his jurisdiction would cover the members in the USA, it is worth a look-see.
   
   The Knights Hospitaller (and possibly the Teutonic Order) used to have it’s own bishops for it’s members. Abbeys usually have an abbot of episcopal rank, his jurisdiction as a bishop is limited to the house but he can ordain clergy.
   
   Those EC who have not had a diocese erected for them are served by the Latin bishops.
   
   There are no bishops for the Russian Catholic parishes in the USA, nor for the Italo-Albanian Catholics, so there are other arrangements. I don’t know what the Armenian Catholics are up to, I can’t find anything on them in north America.

 

[Hesychios]

Zero, we don’t have Denominations in the Catholic Church. That only exists “outside” the CC.

Well, that’s the point, and I think you’ve gotten it.

The term is no more appropriate to describe Orthodox jurisdictions than it is to describe Roman Catholic ones.

 

[Belloc_Fan]

The EP doesn’t actually have any say in this, and the OCA is not a denomination (and I think perhaps you threw that out to be deliberately antagonistic and insulting). The OCA is in full communion with all other Orthodox including (gasp ! ) the EP itself. In fact I have seen Greek Orthodox, ACROD and Ukrainian Orthodox bishops (all under the omophorion of the EP) and priests concelebrate with OCA bishops and priests at large public gatherings in the USA.

This is a question of procedure, nothing more. It doesn’t even qualify as a schism of any sort.

The description of the feud between the EP and the OCA seems much bigger than you’re describing it, if Orthodox sources like this one are to be trusted. Usual caveat: I’m not Eastern Orthodox, so I’ve only got an outsiders’ view.

That said, it really does seem nearer two different denominations than something like two Rites of the Catholic Church. Within Catholicism, while there are different liturgical styles, there’s a common governance structure at the top (the Magisterium, headed by the pope), and each of the 23 Rites exists with the full consent of the earthly head of the Church.

In contrast, the Greek Orthodox and the OCA are pretty openly feuding, have different governing structures, etc. I don’t know if it is still this way, but I know that for a while, at least, the Russian Orthodox Church in Australia wouldn’t even concelebrate the Liturgy with the Greek or Antiochian Orthodox Churches over doctrinal differences. And because there’s nothing like a papacy or Magisterium, I don’t even see a way for these differences to be settled once for all. You’ve declared that the “EP doesn’t actually have any say in this,” while he clearly thinks he does. One of you is wrong, but nobody is in a position to say who. This strikes me as an intrinsic structural failure in having a system without a “court of last say.”

 

[Belloc_Fan]

How many Catholic denominations are there here in the States? I know you have at least the Latin Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Maronite Catholic and Chaldean Catholic. That’s at least five. Did I miss any?

All of the United States is covered in overlapping jurisdictions by bishops of these particular churches in the papal communion.

1. 
   *]Chaldean
   *]Latin
   *]Maronite
   *]Melkite
   *]Ruthenian
   *]Romanian
   *]Syrian
   *]Syro-Malabarese
   *]Ukrainian
   
   The Syro-Malankarese now have a bishop in the USA (since 2010), I seem to remember something about that but it doesn’t come up in the usual lists yet. That would be #10
   
   One probably should not include the Anglican Ordinariate, because the church does not regard it as a legitimate separate rite, but a variation of the Latin. But it could count as an ethnic subgroup under the same terms as the others, and for the same reasons. The issue is not too important yet for purposes of this discussion, there are so many other overlapping jurisdictions already and they might not get bishops of their own.
   
   There is (or are) a separate bishop for Opus Dei, which has a relatively new organizational type (personal prelature) that crosses diocesan bounds. I don’t know if any are resident in the USA. There might be only the one in Rome but his jurisdiction would cover the members in the USA, it is worth a look-see.
   
   The Knights Hospitaller (and possibly the Teutonic Order) used to have it’s own bishops for it’s members. Abbeys usually have an abbot of episcopal rank, his jurisdiction as a bishop is limited to the house but he can ordain clergy.
   
   Those EC who have not had a diocese erected for them are served by the Latin bishops.
   
   There are no bishops for the Russian Catholic parishes in the USA, nor for the Italo-Albanian Catholics, so there are other arrangements. I don’t know what the Armenian Catholics are up to, I can’t find anything on them in north America.
   

1. 
   While you’re at it, why not just include every diocese as a separate denomination? You seem to be just going ad absurdum here. I never said (nor has anyone else, to my knowledge) that separate Rites alone are enough to create denominationalism.
   
   But when you have two separate governing structures, neither accountable to one another or to a common head, and when those two structures periodically cut off Communion with each other over feuds, how are they not separate denominations? If two Presbyterian churches behaved this way, we’d have no trouble saying that it was another Protestant split. So please, cut the snark and provide a straight answer. I wasn’t being flip before – this is genuinely how it seems to outsiders.

 

[Nicea325]

How many Catholic denominations are there here in the States? I know you have at least the Latin Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Maronite Catholic and Chaldean Catholic. That’s at least five. Did I miss any?

Wrong! They are not denominations,but Eastern Rites.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well Catholic’s defend the heritage of Second Vatican Council and the history of the Catholic Church.

This of course doesn’t mean that the Eastern Churchs are not “genuine” churchs. They are just not in communion with the Pope.

In this sense unity with the Pope is not constitutive for the particular church. Nevertheless the lack of unity is also an intrinsic lack in the particular church. For the particular church is ordered to membership in the whole. In this respect, non-communion with the Pope is a defect in the living cell of the particular church as it were. It remains a cell, it is legitimately called a church, but the cell is lacking something, namely its connection with the organism as a whole. And that is the Bishop of Rome, the Pope.

The Pope, Bishop of Rome is the “protos” as defined by the Council of Nicaea. All Catholic Churchs are in communion with Rome.

 

[Nine_Two]

An off-shoot of the Russian Orthodox Church.

I’m pretty sure you realize that the Ecumenical Patriarch denied the ROC’s ability to do this, declaring it a violation of Canon 28 of the Council of Chalcedon. So add it as yet one more Orthodox denomination in the US.

The controversy over the OCA is whether it is autocephalous or autonomous, which has nothing to do with what you said. You said there were no non-ethnic Orthodox Churches in North America. By and large both the OCA and Antiochan Churches are “ethnicly” American/Canadian.

 

[Nine_Two]

Let the polemics…begin!

That was page 1. Or is it only plemical when it isn’t a Catholic doing it?

 

[jam070406]

The controversy over the OCA is whether it is autocephalous or autonomous, which has nothing to do with what you said. You said there were no non-ethnic Orthodox Churches in North America. By and large both the OCA and Antiochan Churches are “ethnicly” American/Canadian.

There is an all American/English speaking OCA Church not too far from me. Actually, I think there may be a couple.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Wrong! They are not denominations,but Eastern Rites.

It seems you have a very poor understanding of Catholic ecclesiology. Methinks you need to spend more time learning about your Church…maybe spend some time on the Eastern Catholicism forum. It would be a shame for an Orthodox to have to explain to a Catholic what their own Church teaches.

 

[Nine_Two]

There is an all American/English speaking OCA Church not too far from me. Actually, I think there may be a couple.

Exactly, most major cities have them. If anyone wants to discuss the proliferation of ethnicly based parishes outside their ethnic lands and why this is a bad thing, I will not only engage in that discussion, I will actively agree with such a position. My old parish was the only English speaking Orthodox Church in the city, I am right on that bandwagon.

But when people want to condemn us for having them, as many users in this thread have (you’re quoted at the top of this post jam, but that certainly isn’t you), then they need to look in the mirror. The issue is affecting Catholic Churches as well. They’re hypocrites.

Anyone who wants to condemn us for our ecclesiastical structure, you’re free to do so. Yes, we lack a monarchy. Councils form the fulcrum of our faith. Disputes occasionally break out among sister churches. But so what? They get solved. Look at the chaos in the Latin Church over practices and in some cases, doctrines and dogmas. Tell me to my face that your monarch has served you better, that it has maintained control, and ensured the preservation of the faith among the young. Even our insane liberals who hold views out of step with the church don’t dare go as far as yours.

This thread is no good for keeping a Lenten mindset, so peace and God Bless, I hope to see some of you around at other threads.

 

[josephdaniel29]

While you’re at it, why not just include every diocese as a separate denomination? You seem to be just going ad absurdum here. I never said (nor has anyone else, to my knowledge) that separate Rites alone are enough to create denominationalism. Then what is? The head of the Melkite Church is

But when you have two separate governing structures, neither accountable to one another or to a common head, and when those two structures periodically cut off Communion with each other over feuds, how are they not separate denominations? If two Presbyterian churches behaved this way, we’d have no trouble saying that it was another Protestant split. So please, cut the snark and provide a straight answer. I wasn’t being flip before – this is genuinely how it seems to outsiders.

Then what is the criteria for denominationalism? Separate governing structures? The head of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church is Patriarch Gregory III. The Melkite Church is governed by its own bishops and synod. The head of the Syriac Catholic Church is Mar Ignatius Joseph III Younan. The Syriac Church is governed by its own synod. The head of the Maronite Catholic Church is Patriarch Bechara Boutros al-Rahi. The Maronite Church is governed by its own synod. How’s that for denominationalism? Four Catholic Patriarchs of Antioch, all with their separate synods and governing structures!

As to the various Orthodox Churches not being accountable to each other that simply is not true. Each bishop and by extension each synod is responsible to each other and to their flocks for upholding the Apostolic Faith. If a bishop falls into heresy he is removed from the synod. If an entire Church falls to heresy the primate is struck from the diptych’s of the other Orthodox Churches. That has happened many times in the history of the Church including the striking of Rome.

 

[jam070406]

Exactly, most major cities have them. If anyone wants to discuss the proliferation of ethnicly based parishes outside their ethnic lands and why this is a bad thing, I will not only engage in that discussion, I will actively agree with such a position. My old parish was the only English speaking Orthodox Church in the city, I am right on that bandwagon.

But when people want to condemn us for having them, as many users in this thread have (you’re quoted at the top of this post jam, but that certainly isn’t you), then they need to look in the mirror. The issue is affecting Catholic Churches as well. They’re hypocrites.

Anyone who wants to condemn us for our ecclesiastical structure, you’re free to do so. Yes, we lack a monarchy. Councils form the fulcrum of our faith. Disputes occasionally break out among sister churches. But so what? They get solved. Look at the chaos in the Latin Church over practices and in some cases, doctrines and dogmas. Tell me to my face that your monarch has served you better, that it has maintained control, and ensured the preservation of the faith among the young. Even our insane liberals who hold views out of step with the church don’t dare go as far as yours.

This thread is no good for keeping a Lenten mindset, so peace and God Bless, I hope to see some of you around at other threads.

While I tend to agree with you I would in no way throw the chaos on the Pope. He’s done a very good job of weathering the storm and teaching clear Truth. It’s actually amazing the job he has done, miraculous. Everyone has a free will, including those that rail against the Church whether inside or out. He has preserved the Faith even when many chose not to listen or practice their Faith. You can go on the Vatican youtube channel and hear all the wisdom that the Pope teaches that the Western world ignores. It’s no wonder he asked that we pray that the wolves don’t devour him.