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malphono
Guest
Abraham? Or do you mean Melchisidech?
Whatever, it was most likely wheat.
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Whatever, it was most likely wheat.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I mean, yeah Melchisidech sacrifised them but they were from AbrahamAbraham? Or do you mean Melchisidech?
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JGMendes4049
Guest
I suppose you could omit the salt and the Crisco. Salt is always optional, right?
B
boldlygo
Guest
Our parish has traditionally baked their own bread from day one, almost 40 years ago. The ministry of bread baking is an important one. A skilled baker can produce wonderful bread using only wheat flour and water; an unskilled baker produces a disaster.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Well, depends on what you mean by disaster. Bread is bread, you can’t really go wrong with mixing flour and water. The worst part is it doesn’t form the way you intend it to form, but it is still edible and does not go to waste. I’ve had my prosphoras for breakfast for a long time before I produced one worthy to be at the altar. But it is still bread.
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MarkThompson
Guest
Hey, I resemble that remark!
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malphono
Guest
I’d say you **can **go wrong mixing flour and water … if the proportions are incorrect you get paste! Perhaps the worst part is what happens when you **bake **the paste: it turns into some sort of inedible substance that resembles clay. Not too yummy. [insert green barf-face here]
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sedonaman
Guest
I believe this was the “cake” referred to in, “Let them eat burnt cake.”
A priest on EWTN encountered a parish once that had a “Betty Crocker” recipe for the hosts. He said they had been using it for 10 years, and in all those years no one in that church received Jesus.
This is what happens when you let people get too creative in church affairs.
I say it should be reported to the bishop.
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Julia_Mae
Guest
Depends on how far back the day was, I guess. The bread in Ezekial 4:9 was made of wheat, barley, legumes, millet and spelt. I’m not sure when in history we began using bread made totally from wheat, but it would have been food of the upper class, originally, and maybe that’s why altar breads are supposed to be made of it.
Jesus bread certainly wasn’t all wheat, unless the Jews did something unusual around Passover, but then, the Last Supper wasn’t actually the Passover meal, iirc. Wheat was the binder because it makes gluten so easily, but it’s not as nutritious as a lot of other grains. Not that I suppose they knew it, but, seriously, wouldn’t you rather have some nice dark rye toasted with garlicky oil on it or slathered with sweet butter than white bread?
Or maybe the rule is a food science one: white wheat flour should make enough gluten naturally that when baked there are few crumbs and it doesn’t dry out and fall apart.
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Julia_Mae
Guest
I don’t believe that. Jesus wasn’t passing out pure white flour and water bread to His disciples and He gets to be Present when He wishes. I cannot imagine Him withholding Himself from the faithful because someone followed a different recipe.
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sedonaman
Guest
You are free to believe what you want. As for me, I believe the priest. :sad_yes:
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Julia_Mae
Guest
I believe Jesus Who said, “Where two or more are gathered in my name there will I be also.”
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Interesting. A friend of mine likes baking bread using a really gooey dough. We tried it for prosphora once. Super deformed and the bread just pop-ed right back out erasing the seal. Still good bread though, we had a delicious mid-afternoon snack. How much water did you use in this case? I’ve made bread with 50/50 water/flour mix and it is good (not for prosphora though). I haven’t gone with more water than 50/50. As for prosphora, the dryer the dough, the better. I actually have a mix that for me is the best mix. But I do it by sight and touch. I start with a 50/50 mix and gradually add flour. If I disturb the balance (it is too dry and thus flaky) then I add water and then flour again. It must be like playdough, dry but still sticky enough that it doesn’t flake or can be formed easily. But it doesn’t stick to your hands.
For all we know they weren’t that strict into what goes into the bread, which is why we don’t have any writings way back then to know what ingredients must strictly be used. It’d be interesting what historians would say about the types of bread used back then and if there is any good reason to use one type over another for the Eucharist.
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malphono
Guest
It’s been so long that I don’t remember, but whatever it was it was done on purpose to create paste (it was something we learned in First Grade, or maybe it was kindergarten). And it was baked on purpose too to create that clay stuff. (I remember making an ashtray out of it – after adding some blue food coloring – despite the fact that no one in my house smoked.)
Y
YoungTradCath
Guest
Invalid matter results in nothing. If a priest uses invalid matter and then says words of consecration, it remains a biscuit, cracker, piece of bread.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
This does not validate invalid matter.
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DarkLight
Guest
I have to say I always found this weird - what is the deal with only wheat bread? I’ve never seen anyone give a reason for it.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
Is this parish even in your diocese? If you sent a note to the pastor or whoever they give contact information for and say that you stumbled on their website, are not sure if their recipe is valid, but you plan to report them to the bishop - oh and you are from a diocese half-way across the country, I have a feeling they’ll think you are a kook.
If this parish is in your diocese, then you have a better shot of getting the question answered, and if there is indeed a problem, having it corrected.
If the recipe calls for crisco (oil) brushed on the loaf before baking, than the bread isn’t actually made with additional ingredients. The purpose of the oil is to keep the top of the loaf from cracking.
The perrier (carbonated) probably allows for a bit of rising without actually leveaning the bread. The salt may be also for this purpose - or just flavor. But salt may not be a problem even in Latin (roman) altar bread.
Finally, even if there is a recipe on the website, it doesn’t mean that the parish is actually using home baked breads, or using this recipe.
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Gorgias
Guest
No. This isn’t accurate, to the best of my knowledge.
(Emphasis mine)
Notice that the stipulation is not “wheat flour and water only”, but rather, simply that there aren’t additional ingredients to the extent that “it would not commonly be considered wheat bread”. Adding salt does not violate this requirement (unless the quantity of salt were sufficiently great that the resulting product would more likely be considered a “salt stick” than "wheat bread).
Adding a bit of salt, and brushing on a little Crisco would not change the common consideration that what is produced is “wheat bread”.
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Julia_Mae
Guest
As I said: I don’t believe that. I don’t mean to be rude, but it’s nonsensical to me. I mean, when did it change? They didn’t have white flour in Palestine. Wheat was one of the lesser grains, bread had multiple grains. So for all these centuries we have no Eucharist until a Pope somewhere along the line decided we should only use special flour and water?
There are lots of rules about things in the modern Church that I understand, including this one. But what the bread is made out of cannot possibly affect whether God acts or not.
BTW, where do we find the definition of “valid” in this context?
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