Does "Thou Shalt Not Kill" include the unborn?

[distracted]

just wondering… 'cause some people think that the life of a mass murderer (who plans to go on mass murdering) is on the same level as that of an unborn child…

hmmm… do you think so?

Of course what the Word meant to say is “Thou shalt not commit murder” (otherwise we would all be going to Hell for eating steak…

or lamb… [as in the Passover meal]

 

[andrewagill]

Of course. Both the unborn and mass murderers are human, and both are deserving of every protection against murder that we can give them.

Also, a man who intends to continue murdering is someone whom we must protect even more, since killing him would do no good, but rather simply enroll him in the ranks of Hell. Reforming the murderer so that both he and we may be in Heaven should be our goal.

 

[Carlan]

Of course. Both the unborn and mass murderers are human, and both are deserving of every protection against murder that we can give them.

Also, a man who intends to continue murdering is someone whom we must protect even more, since killing him would do no good, but rather simply enroll him in the ranks of Hell. Reforming the murderer so that both he and we may be in Heaven should be our goal.

Amen, Andrew.Though sometimes these kinds of questions can be bated, forgive me for my ,skepticism but I was recently caught and tried.:doh2:Carlan

 

[andrewagill]

Amen, Andrew.Though sometimes these kinds of questions can be bated, forgive me for my ,skepticism but I was recently caught and tried.:doh2:Carlan

I’m not sure what you mean, as I was being very serious. I am sorry to hear about your legal troubles, and I hope that you have reconciled yourself to God.

Incidentally, looking back on my comment, it occurs to me that what I said might be misconstrued as needing to protect a murderer even more than an unborn child. That is of course wrong. We must protect both equally, but it gives us another reason why we must protect the murderer just the same as we would protect any other human…

 

[Carlan]

I’m not sure what you mean, as I was being very serious. I am sorry to hear about your legal troubles, and I hope that you have reconciled yourself to God.

Incidentally, looking back on my comment, it occurs to me that what I said might be misconstrued as needing to protect a murderer even more than an unborn child. That is of course wrong. We must protect both equally, but it gives us another reason why we must protect the murderer just the same as we would protect any other human…

I am sorrry Andrew, I know you were being serious, I was the unclear one. I should have said that I was caught in a highly political debate ,unaware at the beginning that it would turn into such. I am afraid I am not greatly experienced at this, hopefully I’ll get better, this 83 year old girl, for the most part ,is enjoying being here. Carlan

 

[DorianGregorian]

just wondering… 'cause some people think that the life of a mass murderer (who plans to go on mass murdering) is on the same level as that of an unborn child…

hmmm… do you think so?

Of course what the Word meant to say is “Thou shalt not commit murder” (otherwise we would all be going to Hell for eating steak…

or lamb… [as in the Passover meal]

The Commandment according to the Catechism and the Vulgate is Thou shalt not kill.

The context of the Commandment clearly applies only to fellow humans, not animals, because in Genesis; God gave man dominion over Earth when he allowed Adam to name the beasts of the Earth.

This Commandment does not prohibit absolutely the taking of life. The Church still allows for the death penalty in extreme circumstances. The Church allows for Just War.

However, there is an absolute prohibition on taking innocent life. This is why abortion is condemned. Also the killing of civilians in war.

I’d consult the Catechism for a more thorough teaching.

Laus Deo

 

[distracted]

Of course. Both the unborn and mass murderers are human, and both are deserving of every protection against murder that we can give them.

Also, a man who intends to continue murdering is someone whom we must protect even more, since killing him would do no good, but rather simply enroll him in the ranks of Hell. Reforming the murderer so that both he and we may be in Heaven should be our goal.

the older i get the more i feel (strongly) that many people in society have commited the unforgivable sin… They say NO to God over and over and over again… True, as long as they live, they have some (albeit probably extremely slim) chance to turn around & repent… but sin hardens a person … .the more sin, the more hardness, the more resistance to God… separation from Him… the more sold out to the devil…

an abortionist such as Tiller heard God’s word (etc, etc). He went to church… he had people try to evangelize to him and get him to stop murdering the unborn… I don’t know for sure but looks to me as though he committed the unforgivable sin a long time ago… said a resounding (eternal) NO to God (Holy Spirit)… My point is that people like this (who murder over & over and are not repentant) are not to be molly-coddled by society forever… at the expense of their innocent victims… The Bible says that “God’s Spirit will not always strive with man”…

As a civilized society, we are called to make choices as to who roams the streets free and who does not… It is not the government’s job (We are the gov’t, supposedly… ) to know the state of one’s soul but we still have to protect the innocent. Since the govenrment doesn’t, maybe “we the people” need to do things the government doesn’t always condone… No, i’m not saying we should all just go out and shoot all abortionists… We should try to conver them…

Tiller wouldn’t listen to those trying to convert him…

he was no better than Ted Bundy and actually killed more people than Bundy…

so he got what Bundy got…

boo hoo…

 

[distracted]

Amen, Andrew.Though sometimes these kinds of questions can be bated, forgive me for my ,skepticism but I was recently caught and tried.:doh2:Carlan

and found…??

 

[distracted]

I’m not sure what you mean, as I was being very serious. I am sorry to hear about your legal troubles, and I hope that you have reconciled yourself to God.

Incidentally, looking back on my comment, it occurs to me that what I said might be misconstrued as needing to protect a murderer even more than an unborn child. That is of course wrong. We must protect both equally, but it gives us another reason why we must protect the murderer just the same as we would protect any other human…

so… a murderer who kills your loved one is just as entitled to live free in society as someone who has not murdered anyone?

… ok…

 

[distracted]

The Commandment according to the Catechism and the Vulgate is Thou shalt not kill.

The context of the Commandment clearly applies only to fellow humans, not animals, because in Genesis; God gave man dominion over Earth when he allowed Adam to name the beasts of the Earth.

This Commandment does not prohibit absolutely the taking of life. The Church still allows for the death penalty in extreme circumstances. The Church allows for Just War.

However, there is an absolute prohibition on taking innocent life. This is why abortion is condemned. Also the killing of civilians in war.

I’d consult the Catechism for a more thorough teaching.

Laus Deo

I’m consulting my conscience… and don’t feel i say anything against the catechism…

the Church is against cap punishment if there is no other way to keep murderers locked up… apparently, there is no other way…

after 36 yrs of Roe v Wade… milliions of unborn humans created in God’s image who have never sinned… are being butchered…

but oh well… it’s not ME being butchered…

 

[andrewagill]

so… a murderer who kills your loved one is just as entitled to live free in society as someone who has not murdered anyone?

… ok…

Absolutely not. All murderers need to be separated from the society that they have proven that they cannot be a part of.

If you think that you can steal judgment from the Lord and steal from Him another’s life, may God have mercy on your soul.

Romans 12:17-19: Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

If you are convinced that you are speaking for God by killing another, be very sure: punishment for false prophecy can range from blindness (Acts 13:6-12) to death (Deuteronomy 13:1-5).

As to the Catechism

If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Do you proclaim yourself a public authority?

 

[patrick457]

just wondering… 'cause some people think that the life of a mass murderer (who plans to go on mass murdering) is on the same level as that of an unborn child…

hmmm… do you think so?

Of course what the Word meant to say is “Thou shalt not commit murder” (otherwise we would all be going to Hell for eating steak…

or lamb… [as in the Passover meal]

From a linguistic POV:

The Hebrew word used in Exodus 20 is ratzakh. It originally referred to killing one person in retaliation for killing someone else; ultimately the word came to mean any killing motivated by animosity. Ratzakh is used only a few times in the Old Testament - 46 times in total. In long passages in Numbers 35, Deuteronomy 19, and Joshua 20-21, it is used to describe the act of someone who has committed what we might call manslaughter. In many contexts (Judges 20:4; 1 Kings 21:19; 2 Kings 6:32; Job 24:14; Psalm 62:3, 94:6; Proverbs 22:13; Hosea 6:9) the word is used to refer to any killing that is done in the manner of a predatory animal; i.e. 1) as an angry reaction to stimulus; or 2) lying in wait, as a predator waits for its prey. Opponents of abortion have painted it as a “predatory” act - that is, an act done for personally advantageous purposes, and whether they are right is dependent on the identity of the fetus. If a fetus is human, then yes, abortion is a violation of the fifth Commandment - “you must not ratzakh”.

 

[distracted]

i guess man-made laws are the all important difference between what makes putting one man to death via cap punishment Right / Just (legal)- and another man a “murderer” (Roeder). Are the ones who administer cap punishment legally murderers too?



if we are right to put Dahmer and Bundy (etc) to death then

why is “everyone” defending tiller? and totally neglecting to mentioin, in a christian and concerned way… Scott Roeder?

as if what tiller did was more understandable / acceptable than what the aforementioned capital punishment recipients did …

Roeder is guilty of one thing: capital punishment enforcement (unauthorized). OK, punish him for that but not murder…

seems to me that… valuing man’s (often) stupid laws over the laws of God is idolatry… and that is something God demanded capital punishment for (OT) Jesus said not one jot or one tittle of the law will pass away…

God doesn’t change… He mentions 7 things (sins) that He particulary hates and one of them is "hands that shed innocent blood"

 

[andrewagill]

Say, distracted, did you read my message? What was your opinion of it?

Or did you come only to preach at us and proudly proclaim yourself King of the Righteous while not listening to the counsel of the lowly Christians?

why is “everyone” defending tiller? and totally neglecting to mentioin, in a christian and concerned way… Scott Roeder?

None are defending Tiller. He was a man who committed evil acts and needed to repent or be separated from society for doing them.

as if what tiller did was more understandable / acceptable than what the aforementioned capital punishment recipients did …

Roeder is guilty of one thing: capital punishment enforcement (unauthorized). OK, punish him for that but not murder…

Unauthorized capital punishment is murder.

seems to me that… valuing man’s (often) stupid laws over the laws of God is idolatry… and that is something God demanded capital punishment for (OT) Jesus said not one jot or one tittle of the law will pass away…

Do you consult the Bible before you make these proclamations, or do you just say whatever you think sounds good?

Please consider what you say before you say it, and think about what the Church has said about this:

Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right. (1 Pet 2:13-14)

Recall also how Jesus (Whom we are called to be like) did not raise a hand against the civil authorities when they tried Him, and in fact stopped Peter from using his sword when the authorities came to take Jesus away.

Jesus did, however, use strong force when cleaning out the Temple from the people who were proclaiming false teachings in His name.

God doesn’t change… He mentions 7 things (sins) that He particulary hates and one of them is “hands that shed innocent blood”

And others are a lying tongue, a false witness who breathes out lies and a heart that devises wicked plans:

There are six things which the LORD hates, seven which are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and a man who sows discord among brothers. (Proverbs 6:16-19)

 

[distracted]

Say, distracted, did you read my message? What was your opinion of it?

Or did you come only to preach at us and proudly proclaim yourself King of the Righteous while not listening to the counsel of the lowly Christians?

None are defending Tiller. He was a man who committed evil acts and needed to repent or be separated from society for doing them.

Unauthorized capital punishment is murder.

Do you consult the Bible before you make these proclamations, or do you just say whatever you think sounds good?

Please consider what you say before you say it, and think about what the Church has said about this:

Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right. (1 Pet 2:13-14)

Recall also how Jesus (Whom we are called to be like) did not raise a hand against the civil authorities when they tried Him, and in fact stopped Peter from using his sword when the authorities came to take Jesus away.

Jesus did, however, use strong force when cleaning out the Temple from the people who were proclaiming false teachings in His name.

And others are a lying tongue, a false witness who breathes out lies and a heart that devises wicked plans:

There are six things which the LORD hates, seven which are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and a man who sows discord among brothers. (Proverbs 6:16-19)

i don’t answer ad hominem…

 

[andrewagill]

i don’t answer ad hominem…

That’s very convenient for you, who has been making oblique comments about the rest of us and our purported impiety by refusing to kill a man.

But very well, the only arguments to a man that I should be making are arguments to The Man, our Lord Jesus Christ.

I reiterate my questions:

• Do you proclaim yourself a public authority and thus capable of administering capital punishment?
• Who here has stated that Tiller should have walked free in society?
• When has anyone committed unauthorized capital punishment and gotten favor with God? Please consider the case of Joab.
• What about what Peter says in 1 Peter?
• What about what Paul says in Romans?

I still encourage you as a fellow Christian to think before you speak. You will be accountable for what you say, and if you speak hastily or rashly, you will heap punishment upon yourself.

 

[distracted]

That’s very convenient for you, who has been making oblique comments about the rest of us and our purported impiety by refusing to kill a man.

But very well, the only arguments to a man that I should be making are arguments to The Man, our Lord Jesus Christ.

I reiterate my questions:

• Do you proclaim yourself a public authority and thus capable of administering capital punishment?
• Who here has stated that Tiller should have walked free in society?
• When has anyone committed unauthorized capital punishment and gotten favor with God? Please consider the case of Joab.
• What about what Peter says in 1 Peter?
• What about what Paul says in Romans?

I still encourage you as a fellow Christian to think before you speak. You will be accountable for what you say, and if you speak hastily or rashly, you will heap punishment upon yourself.

Again, i don’t validate ad hominem…

you seem to hate me… which is really bizarre since you don’t know me…

 

[andrewagill]

you seem to hate me… which is really bizarre since you don’t know me…

I do not hate you. I do not wish harm or evil upon you, and it is in my statements that I hope to turn you from evil. I hate evil, and I wish that you would turn from what I suspect to be a hatred of Tiller.

To desire grave harm to come to another is a mortal sin. If you desired grave harm to come upon Tiller or if you desire grave harm to come upon another for any reason, please see your confessor.

As Jesus says in Matthew 5:21-22:

"You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire.

The Catechism expands on this:

*By recalling the commandment, “You shall not kill,” our Lord asked for peace of heart and denounced murderous anger and hatred as immoral.
Anger is a desire for revenge. “To desire vengeance in order to do evil to someone who should be punished is illicit,” but it is praiseworthy to impose restitution “to correct vices and maintain justice.” If anger reaches the point of a deliberate desire to kill or seriously wound a neighbor, it is gravely against charity; it is a mortal sin. the Lord says, “Everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment.”

Deliberate hatred is contrary to charity. Hatred of the neighbor is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil. Hatred of the neighbor is a grave sin when one deliberately desires him grave harm. “But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.”*

As regards correcting vices and maintaining justice, St. Thomas Aquinas is cited by the Catechism saying

It is unlawful to desire vengeance considered as evil to the man who is to be punished, but it is praiseworthy to desire vengeance as a corrective of vice and for the good of justice; and to this the sensitive appetite can tend, in so far as it is moved thereto by the reason: and when revenge is taken in accordance with the order of judgment, it is God’s work, since he who has power to punish “is God’s minister,” as stated in Romans 13:4

And Romans 13:1-4 states

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.

 

[PJM]

=distracted -just wondering… 'cause some people think that the life of a mass murderer (who plans to go on mass murdering) is on the same level as that of an unborn child…

hmmm… do you think so?

Of course what the Word meant to say is “Thou shalt not commit murder” (otherwise we would all be going to Hell for eating steak…

or lamb… [as in the Passover meal]

***The answer to you’re OOPQ is YES!

But not only that, here are some others sins covered.

Contraceptive Sex, Ruining the good name of somebody, paying less than a living wage, causing scandal and this is the short list. Mortal or veniel sin depends on the conditions for a Mortal sin to being present.

Love and prayers,***

 

[Carlan]

Again, i don’t validate ad hominem…

you seem to hate me… which is really bizarre since you don’t know me…

Distracted, I haven’t read any where in this thread a person saying that they hate you. We are all trying to live Christian lives, sinners that we are.

In scripture I have read that we can judge sinful behavior , but only God judges the intentions of our hearts.“Dear Lord help us to practice what is preached”:getholy: