You’re completely wrong. the very fact that there is now ongoing dialogue, since Vatican II, is a huge change. Give the Spirit credit where movement is happening.
Jon
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Jon
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MaryT777
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No, I am completely right. The LCMS still holds to the antichrist issues you yourself have posted on this thread in spite of the issues noted. Unless they’ve changed since two days ago and I didn’t get the Memo!~ LOL…
Of course ongoing dialogue is wonderful.
Mary.
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Starwarsfan2
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I respect LCMs as fellow confessional Lutherans , but their acceptance of the following is troubling:No, I am completely right. The LCMS still holds to the antichrist issues you yourself have posted on this thread in spite of the issues noted. Unless they’ve changed since two days ago and I didn’t get the Memo!~ LOL…
Of course ongoing dialogue is wonderful.
Mary.
Apology , an explanation of a creed , not meant to be a creed
Smalcald Articles , notes for a ecemunical council ( that we’re still waiting for)
Foc , a book for apologetics, not supposed to be a creed .
Some subdivisions of the Lutheran church needs to drop the pope being the antichrist thing , then maybe talks about a particular church would get further .
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IGotQuestions
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Great info!
Thanks to everyone.
Thanks to everyone.
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Pepband_Mom
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Maybe this has been said already but: Why do people call each Pope “the AntiChrist”?!
The AntiChrist is only 1 person, not every Pope that is elected :blackeye:
The AntiChrist is only 1 person, not every Pope that is elected :blackeye:
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Michael68
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It is an irritating assertion
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Tomyris
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Why do you even care what the Lutherans think about the Pope?
If I got upset at every nasty thing said…
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Starwarsfan2
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Who brought this thread back up anyway?
Exactly. That’s why the Lutheran understanding has to do with the teachings of the office, previously mentioned, and not the individual men who have held. Those teachings we consider opposed to Christ. To believe the Pope John Paul II, or Pope Benedict XVI, or any pope that has since passed away or is living today is or was “THE Antichrist” is ludicrous.
Jon
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rcwitness
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Because they are brothers and sisters in Jesus.
So would you consider anyone who occupies the office as “AN Antichrist”? Since they are embracing, fulfilling and upholding an office which you believe is opposed to Christ.
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MaryT777
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The Concord book which LCMS Pastors swear to at their ordination still contain this:
This teaching shows forcefully that the Pope is the very Antichrist, who has exalted himself above, and opposed himself against Christ because he will not permit Christians to be saved without his power, which, nevertheless, is nothing, and is neither ordained nor commanded by God. 11] This is, properly speaking to exalt himself above all that is called God as Paul says, 2 Thess. 2:4. Even the Turks or the Tartars, great enemies of Christians as they are, do not do this, but they allow whoever wishes to believe in Christ, and take bodily tribute and obedience from Christians.
(Smalcald Article)
Somehow there is either a development of doctrine to the OFFICE of the Papacy is AntiChrist or a different standard for the lay people. They need only believe the office is / AntiChrist and not the Pope himself as the Concord book reads for the LCMS Lutheran Pastors.
The interesting part is the majority of Lutherans have apparently come to realize or never did believe any such nonsense by Luther and do not believe currently either the office of the Pope or the Pope himself is AntiChrist. It has come to my attention that those of the Lutheran World Federation which include the ELCA don’t believe as such, StarWars here does not, and Pastor Kiesnik (sp)
does not either.
Thus only a few die hards left.
It’s a man made doctrine which Catholics reject and sadly had to excommunicate Luther for these and other heretical views.
Obviously viewing the office of the Pope or the Pope himself as AntChrist today impedes ecumenical dialogue.
Mary
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rcwitness
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I don’t know where this (particularly the bolded) has its basis!
I don’t believe this would be an acceptable expression of the Catholic faith!
We believe Jesus our Lord expresses and Confirms the faithful THROUGH the leaders of His Church what is necessary to be saved.
And that this office HAS Confirmed salvation is made possible to all who have been Baptized and maintain faith to their end. And it’s even possible for those who through no fault of their own, have not known the Gospel and it’s Sacraments are also able to enter His kingdom because He alone judges men, and He knows our hearts.
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Tomyris
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Some things I just chalk up to ignorance or unfortunate malevolence or even “consider the source” and let it go, brothers and sisters in Jesus or no.
I am not sure hammering the Lutherans on this will do anything to soften their position. I think working towards them accepting your bona fides on other issues would.
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Starwarsfan2
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The view of the pope as antichrist although wrong is not heretical .
No. I would consider that the teachings they present, on the specific items mentioned before to be opposed to, or anti Christ.
Jon
Mary’s bolded is the understanding of the reformers regarding the claim, made in Unam sanctam and in other places, that salvation is contingent on being in communion with the pope.I don’t know where this (particularly the bolded) has its basis!
I don’t believe this would be an acceptable expression of the Catholic faith!
We believe Jesus our Lord expresses and Confirms the faithful THROUGH the leaders of His Church what is necessary to be saved.
And that this office HAS Confirmed salvation is made possible to all who have been Baptized and maintain faith to their end. And it’s even possible for those who through no fault of their own, have not known the Gospel and it’s Sacraments are also able to enter His kingdom because He alone judges men, and He knows our hearts.
Jon
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MaryT777
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But the majority of Lutherans disagree with you now it seems. It boils down to not who is right but who has the authority to determine who is right.
How do you as saying “I” represent any authority?
The Catholic Church has the authority given by Christ; not Luther.
Mary.
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Starwarsfan2
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That is debatable
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KathleenGee
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The pope is head of the universal church. He represents Christ over all of us of many cultures and languages.
I am more privvy to Pope John Paul II.
But I could experience Christ’s presence at work at P Francis’ visit…by people being released from the bonds of every day worry…to peace, to joy, to hope and simple blueprints to live a more Christian life in our secular world. In this context, the pope speaks in the living revelation of Christ for the world today and as we had seen, he speaks to all peoples, secular as well.
I would have to say yes, it was Luther who imprinted on the particular, I would say, English/American psyche that the pope is the antichrist, but Luther was a theologian and we must assume he knew prior that there were many great popes who were martyred for Christ and one cannot call them anti Christs…in fact the more people study the actual teachings of the popes, they will find nothing contradicting Christ.
The pope of Luther, those of the Borgias and De Medicis, all of them were prevented by the Holy Spirit from teaching anything.
Likewise in relation to the Orthodox, there were times the pope had the last say, other times the patriarchs and bishops…and process of administrating that was living, viable, flexible. I pray for our reunion soon.
Finally, SS Peter and Paul went to Rome to solely establish the ecclesia with no interest in an imperial church. The eastern churches evolved more into churches with imperial connections and there is merit in that as you see in Russia where the Orthodox have great devotion to their country and have much interior unity. In the Latin Church, we focus more on transcendence, universality and so our ‘politics’ are usually kept under the table for our basic parish fellowship where controversial topics are avoided…atleast in my diocese.
I am more privvy to Pope John Paul II.
But I could experience Christ’s presence at work at P Francis’ visit…by people being released from the bonds of every day worry…to peace, to joy, to hope and simple blueprints to live a more Christian life in our secular world. In this context, the pope speaks in the living revelation of Christ for the world today and as we had seen, he speaks to all peoples, secular as well.
I would have to say yes, it was Luther who imprinted on the particular, I would say, English/American psyche that the pope is the antichrist, but Luther was a theologian and we must assume he knew prior that there were many great popes who were martyred for Christ and one cannot call them anti Christs…in fact the more people study the actual teachings of the popes, they will find nothing contradicting Christ.
The pope of Luther, those of the Borgias and De Medicis, all of them were prevented by the Holy Spirit from teaching anything.
Likewise in relation to the Orthodox, there were times the pope had the last say, other times the patriarchs and bishops…and process of administrating that was living, viable, flexible. I pray for our reunion soon.
Finally, SS Peter and Paul went to Rome to solely establish the ecclesia with no interest in an imperial church. The eastern churches evolved more into churches with imperial connections and there is merit in that as you see in Russia where the Orthodox have great devotion to their country and have much interior unity. In the Latin Church, we focus more on transcendence, universality and so our ‘politics’ are usually kept under the table for our basic parish fellowship where controversial topics are avoided…atleast in my diocese.
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pablope
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And to make this teaching and position palatable…
It is a Jekyll and Hyde position…and this allows Lutherans to hold the view as explained by above.
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