Does Vicar of Christ=Anti-Christ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter IGotQuestions
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
These are about the Church as hierarchy being the vicar of Christ

2 Corinthians 2:10

“Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ.”

Matthew 10:40

“He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me.

This is about the Church as a whole being vicar of Christ

Acts 22

And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you are persecuting.’

These are about Peter being vicar of Christ

Matthew 16

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Luke 22:32

Simon, Simon… I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.”

John 21:15

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.”
 
You must have missed my response.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13265650&postcount=53

Just because you do not agree with, or like the answer, doesn’t mean one wasn’t given.
I very much appreciate your response. Personally I believe that the whole ‘antichrist issue’ is wrapped up in the question of the actual authority of the Confession in which those accusations are found. Was that authority based on some kind of divine interaction with the Holy Spirit, or was it based merely on human opinion, or a human and therefore fallible interpretation of Scripture.

In fact, I did read your post number 53 and responded to it. Unfortunately I did not recognize it as being an actual answer as to the authority of your Confessions. Now that I know that you consider it to be an answer, I will address it in more detail. I will probably have to make some assumptions or fill in the gaps a little bit. If I do and you believe that I have misrepresented your position, please correct me specifically and exactly.

In post number 53, with regard to the authority of the Lutheran Confessions, you stated:
Krauth’s statement actually says the confessors did not fail. We believe the confessions rightly reflect scripture.
The statement that ‘we believe’ tells me that this is based on a personal or corporate interpretation of Scripture. In other words, it is the opinion of Lutheranism that their confessions ‘rightly reflect scripture’.
No. infallibility implies an incapacity to fail. Scriptures are inerrant, the confessions are not. The writers (confessors) could have been in error, but were not.
Here you state that your confessors COULD have been in error, BUT WERE NOT. You state that they were NOT with an amazing certainty. It appears that you have claimed that there is no question but that the writers of your confessions did not err. I guess the question then becomes the source of that assurance. Let’s use the Formula of Concord as an example of the Lutheran Confessions.

It appears to me that something like 1 – 2% of Christianity believes that the F of C represent Scripture ‘rightly reflected’. Of course Lutheranism also believes, at least generally, in the clarity of Scripture. If Scripture is ‘rightly reflected’ in the F of C, and Scripture is clear on the important doctrines, then it would follow that a LOT more than 1-2% of Christianity would find the F of C to be ‘correct’. If this were true, the F of C Lutheran communions would be attracting an increasing percentage of Christian laity, rather than decreasing as a percentage of the whole.

It seems that the statement of Krauth, that the confessors did not fail, as well as your explanation, are based ONLY on the corporate opinion of your F of C communions. What I don’t see Jon is any rational explanation that is any different than any of the other factions of Protestantism which believe that it is THEIR communions and confessions which ‘rightly reflect scripture’.

OK, with all that in place – by what explanation can you ‘distance yourselves’ from the claims of other Protestants. In other words, can you offer a rational which singles out your confessions and justifies your certainty – one that they CANNOT use by that weak tactic of using your exact words and substituting in THEIR words?

At the core, the question is directed at Lutherans as follows:

What is it, specifically and exactly that causes you to believe that your communion is any better at Scriptural exegesis than all of those Protestant communions which disagree with you doctrinally?

You have said that you don’t believe that the Lutheran Confessions are infallible. We should probably take a look and see how the LCMS addresses the matter. From the LCMS website:

The Lutheran Confessions

Drawn from God’s Word, the Lutheran Confessions are a true and binding exposition of Holy Scripture and serve as authoritative texts for all pastors, congregations and other rostered church workers of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod.

What are the Lutheran Confessions?
The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod accepts the Scriptures as the inspired and inerrant Word of God, and the LCMS subscribes unconditionally to all the symbolical books of the Evangelical Lutheran Church as a true and unadulterated statement and exposition of the Word of God.

We accept the Lutheran Confessions as articulated in the Book of Concord of 1580 because they are drawn from the Word of God, and on that account we regard their doctrinal content as a true and binding exposition of Holy Scripture and as authoritative for all pastors, congregations and other rostered church workers of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod.To be continued:
 
OK Jon, now we are getting somewhere. This is the official position of the LCMS. In the first underlined sentence, they state that they ‘subscribe unconditionally’ to the symbolical books, as ‘true and unadulterated’. This does not tell me WHY, specifically and exactly, they believe this.

Next we find that the Confessions, including the Book of Concord ‘are drawn from the word of God’. This of course is exactly the same justification that ALL of Protestantism use to defend their particular ‘confessions’ or teachings. The last sentence is the payoff though. Even though the authority of the Confessions has not been proven in any way whatsoever, they are ‘binding’ and ‘authoritative for all Lutherans. This doesn’t make any sense. There should be some solid reasoning as to why the Lutheran Confessions are authoritative and must be held to.

This is where I think the Lutheran argument falls apart. If the ‘authority’ or validity of the Confessions are based on nothing more than a ‘belief’ that they are correct, then by what authority are or could Lutherans be bound to them.

Couldn’t ANY Lutheran who choses to disagree, claim the same ‘right to Private Interpretation’ that Luther used for the first 7 years or so of his Reformation and claim that they, as individuals, know better than the Church, exactly the way that Luther did?

In other words, there is absolutely nothing compelling about the Lutheran claims with regards to the authority of their Confessions. In fact, the explanation that you and Krauth and your LCMS website offer are internally inconsistent and illogical.

Personally, I think that all of this comes down to the ‘right to Private Judgment’, a Luther innovation.

Hopefully I have correctly understood your position. If I have not, please correct me specifically and exactly so that I will know where and how you feel your position has been misrepresented. When you do that I will be able to deal with a more accurate representation of your beliefs.
 
=Randy Carson;13273373]I did note that.
As you know since you pointed it out, the Catechism of the Catholic Church specifically states:
838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”
In this statement, the Church IS being “inclusive” and “charitable” - the very things you seemed to suggest that we are not being by standing by that position. If we were being exclusive and uncharitable, we would insist that only formal Catholics could be saved, wouldn’t we?
You know me, Randy, I find the position of the CC on this issue as, indeed, attempting to be charitable and inclusive. This is, from what I understand, the positive re-formulating spoken of in CCC 846:
**846. How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [cf. St. Cyprian, Ep 73:21; PL 3:1169; De Unit PL 4:509-536] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” [Vatican II LG 14]**
But even here there is an air of triumphalism, unless one accept “Catholic Church” as meaning more than simply in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
But okay.
Conversely, as you know because it has been pointed out, the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod specifically states:
OF THE ANTICHRIST
**As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. **All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist “as God sitteth in the temple of God,” 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ’s sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation — these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is “the very Antichrist.” (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.) (Source.)
Now, in this statement, the LCMS is being anything but charitable and inclusive, and I reject all attempts to explain this away. If all that scripture teaches concerning the anti-Christ is fulfilled in the office of the papacy, then what does that say about the Church that maintains that office and follows the leadership of the man who holds that office?
And yet, prior to the “positive re-formulating”, this is what is meant by Pope Boniface VIII
"“That there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church we are compelled by faith to believe and hold, and we firmly believe in her and sincerely confess her, outside of whom there is neither salvation nor remission of sins…Furthermore we declare, state and define that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of all human beings that they submit to the Roman Pontiff.”
In fact, the wording is active: “that they submit”, as opposed to the passive of the positive reformulation.
You can’t spin this, Jon. Either own it or reject it.
And, as a Catholic, positive reformulation (spin?) or not, either you own it or reject it.

But as for me, you say:
Indeed, you may not even be a Confessional Lutheran if you do not hold that the papacy is the antichrist:
continued
 
This teaching that the Papacy is the Antichrist is not a fundamental article of faith. . . . It is not an article on which saving faith rests, with which Christianity stands or falls. We cannot and do not deny the Christianity of a person who cannot see the truth that the Pope is the Antichrist.
Yet it is an important article and should not be side-stepped or slighted. It is clearly revealed in the divine word, and there is nothing needless and useless in the Bible; God wants us to know about the Antichrist. . . . This article is clearly expressed in the Lutheran Confessions; whoever denies it does not stand in one faith with his fathers; he is not a confessional Lutheran. A Lutheran preacher should know, believe, and teach this article or frankly confess that he no longer subscribes to the Confessions of the Lutheran Church. If we value the saving doctrine of the vicarious atonement through the blood of Jesus Christ, the God-man, in these latter days of the world, we shall do well to keep the facts concerning the Antichrist well in mind (“The Scriptural Doctrine of the Antichrist,” Our Great Heritage, Vol. 3, pp. 601,602). (Source.)
It is informative that you cite a WELS document, which actually accuses Missouri of moving away from confessional teaching. I disagree, but that’s not the point. Here is what I “own”.
  1. That the teaching of the papacy that the pope has universal jurisdiction over the whole Church on Earth is both opposed to scripture and opposed to the councils of the early Church.
  2. That the teaching that one must be in communion with the Bishop of Rome (even “imperfectly” as stated in CCC 846) in order to be saved, or one must submit to the Pope, as Pope Boniface stated it (infallibly?), is also opposed to scripture and Tradition.
  3. That one and two do not exclude Catholics, be they laity, priest, nun, bishop, cardinal, or pope, from being Christians, living under His grace, forgiven of sin through the sacraments. It is in this way, through Christ, that I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome, and all Catholics. And I thank God for that.
  4. That no pope, not one of them, is now or ever was, THE anti-Christ. Pope Francis is not the anti-Christ. Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI was not then, and is not now, the anti-Christ.
  5. That the charge found in the confessions is NOT doctrine, but a historical judgement, conditional upon the abilities of our two communions, guided by the Spirit, to reconcile this sad division between us.
But if you do reject it and you are no longer considered a Confessional Lutheran in good standing, then why would you want to continue being a member of the “church” that teaches this lie about your brothers and sisters in Christ?
Whether or not this statement places me outside the “definition” of confessional Lutheran, I will leave to the judgement of other confessional Lutherans, but I certainly do not think they are in any way outside the statements of the LCMS.

Jon
 
Thanks Star,

If I am ‘excessive’ sometimes, how would you characterize Luther’s ‘antichrist’ accusations, or his polemical style in general?

God Bless You Star, Topper
Sometimes, excessive. As were some of his opponents.
Is that the model of dialogue you think we should follow?

Jon
 
These are about the Church as hierarchy being the vicar of Christ

2 Corinthians 2:10

“Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ.”

Matthew 10:40

“He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me.

This is about the Church as a whole being vicar of Christ

Acts 22

And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you are persecuting.’

These are about Peter being vicar of Christ

Matthew 16

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Luke 22:32

Simon, Simon… I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.”

John 21:15

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.”
Thank you, Michael.
Instead of the polemics that swirl around this topic and CAF in the last year and a half, you provide a scriptural reference to Catholic belief; one every Lutheran here should ponder, myself included.

Jon
 
Thank you, Michael.
Instead of the polemics that swirl around this topic and CAF in the last year and a half, you provide a scriptural reference to Catholic belief; one every Lutheran here should ponder, myself included.

Jon
That’s such a kind response. Thank you!

I did intend to allow Scripture to represent our understanding of ‘vicar’. Of course many other passages could further help to define the role of ‘vicar of Christ’. Both what it means as well as what it does not mean.
 
Thank you for your answers! So many accusations easily answered. If only these preachers would open their ears.
Will the preachers open their ears? Do not bet on it. Sola Scripture argument is still raging on even though it has no biblical foundation. Some preachers preach what they want their unquestioning congregation to hear depending on the preacher’s agenda. I once heard a pastor tell his congregation that the Holy Spirit lead him to get a PHD in Theology!!..How about that… as if acquiring a PHD makes him a better pastor.

How a pastor, preacher or anyone else in this mordern time, can call the Pope an Anti-Christ is beyond my understanding. Yes there were bad Popes who did bad things that were conrary to Christ’s teachnings; regardless, the office of the Papacy cannot be labelled as Anti-Christ.
 
Will the preachers open their ears? Do not bet on it. Sola Scripture argument is still raging on even though it has no biblical foundation. Some preachers preach what they want their unquestioning congregation to hear depending on the preacher’s agenda. I once heard a pastor tell his congregation that the Holy Spirit lead him to get a PHD in Theology!!..How about that… as if acquiring a PHD makes him a better pastor.

How a pastor, preacher or anyone else in this mordern time, can call the Pope an Anti-Christ is beyond my understanding. Yes there were bad Popes who did bad things that were conrary to Christ’s teachnings; regardless, the office of the Papacy cannot be labelled as Anti-Christ.
The fact that there have been bad popes has nothing to do with it. Bad popes were not the anti-Christ, anymore than good popes were. It is the teachings that determine the charge of being opposed to Christ. Catholics, if they choose can say the same about some protestant teachings. For example, I consider withholding baptism from infants and young children to be opposed to Christ.

Jon
 
Hi Mary,
We all have different posting styles here. You’ll get used to us LOL. You are not rude nor do I think Topper is rude either. I appreciate the different style of all the posters. It would be dull to read a list of same way of speaking posts in my opinion.

As different as Catholic and Lutheran and as similar as two believing Christians…

Mary.
This is pretty much what it comes down too. What makes me laugh is that people could claim that what we do here is rude, and yet NO LUTHERAN is willing to rebuke or even chide Luther a little bit for accusing the Pope of being the antichrist. There’s that good ole double standard – again.

Personally, I think that Luther’s accusation and a lot of his other behavior and bizzare teachings are all cut from the same cloth. As such, it is important that we learn more about him, and especially the context into which we can place his ‘antichrist’ nonsense.

Hartman Grisar records Luther’s thoughts at the time of his ‘trial’ at Augsburg with Cajatan. This is of course before he was excommunicated from his Augustinian order, from the Church, and before he was declared an outlaw and an enemy of the state:

“and that the Pope is not the head of the Church by right Divine ; but I failed to see the inevitable consequence of all this, viz. that the Pope must needs be of the devil." Grisar, Vol VI, pg. 190

Of course he had already confided in a friend that the thought that the pope might be the antichrist. Rather than simply saying that the thought the pope was wrong on a matter of doctrine, Luther, ever the dramatic, had to use as harsh a language as he could muster.

I think that the biggest factor for Luther in accusing the Pope of being the antichrist was that the pope didn’t just wholesale buy into all of his dozens and dozens of radical theological innovations. (Apparently he didn’t realize that the churches that would follow him and bear his name would claim that it is the Church that determines doctrine, NOT the individual. However, that the Pope would reject his innovations AUTOMATICALLY made him the antichrist. Given that Scripture was exceedingly clear on all of those issues (at least to Luther), the only way that anybody could actually opposed him (in his mind) was if they were unknowingly in league with Satan.

There were also those who disagreed with Luther whom he called liars. According to Luther’s paradigm, it was SO OBVIOUS (to him) that he was right and they were wrong that they HAD to know it, and thus were lying about actually disagreeing with him. In truth, they actually agreed with him, but publically professed that they did not. And since they were LIARS, they deserved all of the hatred that he could deliver, which by the way he could deliver in massive quantities.

Another Lutheran Professor chimes in:

“With a growing conviction that the papacy is actually an instrument of the antichrist, Luther states his ecclesiological arguments ever more pointedly. The apocalyptic tone of his style becomes more pronounced. He feels himself increasingly dragged into the battle between God and Satan for the ultimate rule. This apocalyptic atmosphere of course leads Luther into making statements which in this form are no longer tenable in our modern ecumenical dialogue and which for that reason should not be repeated at all.” Markus Wreidt, (Lutheran Professor of Historical Theology) “Luther’s Theology”, in “The Cambridge Companion to Martin Luther”

If those statements are that bad and do not belong in modern dialogue, then they should be eradicated from the Lutheran Confessional documents. Replace them something which is not as offensive.

Luther actually believed that he was playing a key role in the end times, that he had been given a huge responsibility in the End Time battle between God and Satan. Since he was on God’s Side (of course), anybody who opposed him was on the side of Satan, and since they were on the side of Satan, there was NOTHING that was too horrible for him to say to them.

“Apocalyptic views and his vision of his own role in the final drama of the world play a highly significant role in his polemics. At this point there is need only to consider whether these views might in themselves be regarded as symptoms of psychological imbalance: and odd mixture of paranoia and delusions of grandeur. The older Luther did firmly believe that he was living on the eve of the Last Judgment. Once the papacy had been exposed by the Reformation as the antichrist seated within the church, the final battle had been joined. Satan had unleashed all his minions in a last, desperate attempt to defeat the servants of Christ. Luther’s polemics were a part of this final struggle.” Edwards, “Luther’s Last Battles”, pg. 97

I have actually met a few people who today believe that the papacy is the antichrist. However, virtually all Christians today are far too intelligent and scripturally sophisticated to believe such garbage. But Luther wasn’t. What would we think if there were some Christian leader today who held these wild beliefs and acted the way Luther did, slinging around the worst language and accusations he could dredge up? Would we possibly consider him to be potentially a ‘Reformer’ of the Christian Church?

What would we think of a Christian leader today who spouted such nonsense about the papacy and believe and acted like he was in the End Times? In the last quote Lutheran college President and Luther Scholar provides the only plausible answer by questioning Luther’s psychological balance. Of course as a Catholic, it would be inappropriate for me to mention that possibility, but it is not for a Lutheran Scholar.

God Bless You Mary, Topper
 
It boggles my mind how anyone, knowledgeable of scripture, would conclude that the pope could be the anti-christ.
The Anti-christ is a military leader who makes a protection deal with Israel. I believe he will be a Muslim.

However, a pope could be the False Prophet. Research the 3rd prophecy of Fatima for yourself.
Catholic Exorcist Warns: Pope Francis is NOT the …
Watch this interview on YouTube .
Or go to. trueexorcist.com
 
It boggles my mind how anyone, knowledgeable of scripture, would conclude that the pope could be the anti-christ.
The Anti-christ is a military leader who makes a protection deal with Israel. I believe he will be a Muslim.

However, a pope could be the False Prophet. Research the 3rd prophecy of Fatima for yourself.
Catholic Exorcist Warns: Pope Francis is NOT the …
Watch this interview on YouTube .
Or go to. trueexorcist.com
looked at the video. Who is that guy, Fr. Jack Ashcraft? What does he claim as his evidence?

Doing a quick search of him just opens a huge can of worms. It’s just mass debate and banter.
 
Topper , Since when do we not say he went to far with the course language, he made mistakes we know that , we know he wasn’t at the best of health , but for some reason you want to disqualify him from being a true reformer just because of his mistakes, that is the ridiculous claim, and really , questioning the intelligence of believers who view the pope as the antichrist , really , that view is not garbage , they take that view because of his usurping of power not given to him by God , and in their view , he’s taken so much power , the label of antichrist is the only one that fits , is it a legitimate view yes, is it the right view , no , not necessarily , and if we wish to debate it , debate it point by point .

Keep the faith , StarWarsfan .
 
Hi Mary,
I read the “Cliff Notes” version. Looks like Chemitz was as fond of the Papacy as your’s truly, Luther.

[PDF]Martin Chemnitz on the Doctrine of Justification

www.wlsessays.net/files/PreusChemnitz.pdf

Chemnitz’ Examination of Trent or his Loci Theologici, it becomes … dense darkness and the putrid filth and cesspool of the Antichrist and to restore the.
I know Mary, Chemitz was a real sweetheart too wasn’t he? “The putrid filth and cesspool of the antichrist…….”

Of course, he was some kind of theological genius (or something), that is - aside from the fact of misidentifying the antichrist and a few dozen other ‘minor details’.

In fact Mary, in spite of the ‘information’ in a recent post, Martin Chemitz had a great deal to do with the official accusation of Lutheranism that the pope is the Antichrist. As you know some of the most ridiculous and offensive language is contained in the Melanchthon’s “Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope”, which was written in 1537. However it wasn’t until 1580 that it was incorporated into the Book of Concord and became, at that point, ‘authoritative’, at least to a segment of Lutheranism. Would you like to guess who the driving forces were that assembled all of the various documents into the Book of Concord? Yep, that’s right – according to wiki:

“The Book of Concord was compiled by a group of theologians led by Jakob Andreae and Martin Chemnitz at the behest of their rulers”

As such we can’t blame Chemnitz for originating the ridiculous accusation about the antichrist, but he sure did more than his fair share to promulgate it. As such, his name is all over it. Those who revere him need to recognize that. You know Mary, this teaching Lutherans about Lutheran history is an endless task. Thankless too, as if you hadn’t noticed.

LCMS Pastor Fisk, known for his u tube video rants against the Catholic Church, has a very definite opinion about the antichrist issue, and one that of course he doesn’t mind sharing with the world. This self-appointed ‘spokesman’ for the LCMS, has never to my knowledge been admonished for his ravings:
Pastor Fisk rant: youtu.be/KxTglbyabk0

Excerpts:

“The Lutheran church exists because the teachings of the RCC is so abhorrent and so connected to the description of the abomination mentioned in the Book of Daniel and by Jesus in Matthew……The Jesuits are basically not even Trinitarian]….(the RCC) is Mary worshiping, saint idolizing, money grubbing, pedophile protecting”. When quoting the Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, fisk states: “Indeed they ought to curse the Pope and his minions” as the very realm of the antichrist.”

Mary, prepare to read about how my criticism of Fisk is unfair. Seriously, I am not kidding!

This is anti-Catholic bigotry in its most virulent form. THIS is the current state of the ‘ecumenical efforts’ by the LCMS. In fact though, one has to admire Fisk on one respect. At least he is willing to publically stand up for the official teachings of his communion. He is NOT timid and afraid to be unpopular.

My prediction regarding Fisk is that he is very consciously attempting to make a name for himself within the LCMS. The fact is that he certainly appears to be a rising star within the communion and it would seem that his over the top rhetoric is designed to further that goal. Given that there has not been any interruption in his regular web based rants, it does not appear that the LCMS leadership is trying to curb his ‘enthusiasm’.

When Luther used the term ‘antichrist’ in regard to the papacy, he did not mean something so mild as “someone or some authority that obscured the gospel.” To him, there was a much more “real” and physical meaning. Lutherans can wish that that is not true, but Luther’s thoughts on the matter are much too well documented:

“It truly seems to me that if this fury of the Romanists should continue, there is no remedy except that the emperor, kings, and princes, girded with force and arms, should resolve to attack this plague of all the earth no longer with words but with the sword. …If we punish thieves with the gallows, robbers with the sword, and heretics with fire, why do we not all the more fling ourselves with all our weapons upon these masters of perdition, these cardinals, these popes, and all this stink of Roman sodomy that ceaselessly corrupts the church of God and wash our hands in their blood so that we may free ourselves and all who belong to us from this dangerous fire.” Marius, page 282-3 WA6: 347

In 1521, even before he was excommunicated, Luther calls for people to wash their hands in the blood of Catholics. His comments were designed to incite the common people, and at that Luther was a master. We all know how that turned out for the ‘common people’ in the 1525 Peasant’s War, where 100,000 people were slaughtered.

What really astonishes me is how Lutherans can be upset that we would object to Luther and Lutheranism’s pathetic charges that the Pope is the Antichrist. As a demonstration of how tone deaf people can be, they attempt to claim that it is ONLY the office of which they speak. I guess they don’t think we haven’t noticed that the text of their Confessions do not mention the word ‘office’ even once in this context. What is amazing too is that they think that this particular spin is any less objectionable. Its as if the most revered office of our 1.1 billion member Church is said to be the antichrist, and, somehow THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE OK? I think that all of these ‘versions’ are extremely revealing, not about the Pope, but about Lutheranism, or at least the apparently small portion that holds to this nonsense.

Astonishing don’t ya think Mary?

God Bless You Mary, Topper
 
Hi Randy,
So, by upholding and supporting the office of the papacy every time I donate to the annual Peter’s Pence collection, I’m supporting the anti-Christ.
It is pretty ridiculous isn’t it Randy?

My wife and I once attended a Knights of Columbus celebration of our local chapter 100th anniversary. It was quite an event. My brother was in town and the next day I was driving him to the airport and describing this amazing event the night before.

He said” “At the church where I was saved, the preacher said from the pulpit, that the Knights of Columbus are…………………(long pause)”

I filled in the blank with: “Intrinsically Evil?” To which he said ‘Yes.’

I was so stunned that I didn’t know what to say and began to tell him about how the Knights donate more money and more member service hours than any other similar organization in the world. That didn’t make a difference to him. To him his little Bible Church was the most true expression of the Christian Faith. Of course in the 12 or so years since, he has been through at least a half a dozen churches, each of which is the ‘most true’.

What it really came down to, both with my brother, and also with Luther, is this: He (they) wanted that assurance of Salvation that the Church wanted to “steal from them” (exact words). They wanted an assurance today that would be ‘good’ for the rest of their lives. Of course we will hear that that is not what Lutherans believe, but it sure was what drove Luther to his Revolt.

This kind of hatred has a source. I recently read an intriguing book that MaryT777 recommended about a dozen or so Lutheran converts to Catholicism. Most of them were clergy so they had no choice but to be extremely committed to their decision. The following is an excerpt about Luther’s hatred for the Jews, which I think is cut from the same cloth as his hatred for Catholics in that both of them caused him to doubt himself as being led to ‘reform’ the Church:

In a section about his conversion entitled “Luther’s attitude towards Jews troubles me”, Anthony Gerring wrote about being assigned a research paper in college:

“The moment I heard the name Martin Luther, I knew what my [research paper] topic would be. While I had studied his life in high school, this seemed to be a good way to learn about my boyhood hero. However, as I began to do the research and read what Luther actually wrote about the Jews his comments began to trouble me……

Clearly, Luther’s writings against the Jews violated Christ’s teaching to ‘love your neighbor as yourself’. Moreover, his writings prompted me to question the esteem with which I held Luther. How could it be that the man God had chosen to rediscover the pure Gospel after having been obscured for so many centuries could become so hateful? At the time, I didn’t think about it too deeply and merely chalked it up to sin. After all, Luther had written these statements many years after having overcome what I thought were the false teachings of the Catholic Church and the Pope. What did it really matter, I thought? Many Godly men have fallen into sin and Luther was certainly no different. As I finished my [research] paper, I concluded with the thought that it was ‘sad to know that the great reformer, Martin Luther, could not show love to the Jewish people.” “Are You a Religious Person”, Anthony L. Gerring, in “There We Stood, Here We Stand”, Edited by Timothy Drake.

Gerring’s comments seem to mirror a common theme that we have seen here on CA from converts from Lutheranism. In their upbringing in Lutheranism, there were portions of the history of Martin Luther, and areas of his teaching, to which they had not been exposed (to put it nicely). Gerring mentions studying Luther (his “hero”) in high school, but apparently was not aware of the whole issue of Luther against the Jews. That is pretty common.

Gerring’s question is crucial:

“How could it be that the man God had chosen to rediscover the pure Gospel after having been obscured for so many centuries could become so hateful?”

I would suggest that Luther’s hatefulness was not some late career development. He was calling for the death of his enemies pretty much throughout his entire career. He called for his followers to wash their hands in the blood of Catholics, even before his excommunication.

“…If we punish thieves with the gallows, robbers with the sword, and heretics with fire, why do we not all the more fling ourselves with all our weapons upon these masters of perdition, these cardinals, these popes, and all this stink of Roman sodomy that ceaselessly corrupts the church of God and wash our hands in their blood so that we may free ourselves and all who belong to us from this dangerous fire.” Marius page 283

Are people supposed to believe that, as Gerring puts it, Luther was “the man God had chosen to rediscover the pure Gospel?” Are we supposed to believe that God also ‘chose’ Luther to teach about death for Jews, Anabaptists, Peasants, ‘reluctant wives’, and numerous other wild rants, all the while quoting Scripture (madly) but somehow ‘correctly’? Just exactly how plausible is that?

As Gerring attests, and so have many CA converts from Lutheranism, their former tradition has not exactly anxious to reveal the whole truth about Luther. As we have seen, people actually sometimes begin to question Lutheran doctrine when they become more aware of Luther’s actions and ‘lesser known’ teachings.

God Bless You Randy, Topper
 
Will the preachers open their ears? Do not bet on it. Sola Scripture argument is still raging on even though it has no biblical foundation. Some preachers preach what they want their unquestioning congregation to hear depending on the preacher’s agenda. I once heard a pastor tell his congregation that the Holy Spirit lead him to get a PHD in Theology!!..How about that… as if acquiring a PHD makes him a better pastor.

How a pastor, preacher or anyone else in this mordern time, can call the Pope an Anti-Christ is beyond my understanding. Yes there were bad Popes who did bad things that were conrary to Christ’s teachnings; regardless, the office of the Papacy cannot be labelled as Anti-Christ.
Well said!~ Welcome to the forums by the way; I see you are relatively new.
The office of the Papacy being the antichrist is a man made doctrine which Catholics of course reject as actually ridiculous at best.

Mary.
 
Topper , Since when do we not say he went to far with the course language, he made mistakes we know that , we know he wasn’t at the best of health , but for some reason you want to disqualify him from being a true reformer just because of his mistakes, that is the ridiculous claim, and really , questioning the intelligence of believers who view the pope as the antichrist , really , that view is not garbage , they take that view because of his usurping of power not given to him by God , and in their view , he’s taken so much power , the label of antichrist is the only one that fits , is it a legitimate view yes, is it the right view , no , not necessarily , and if we wish to debate it , debate it point by point .

Keep the faith , StarWarsfan .
I thought you noted one does not need to believe the Pope is the AntiChrist/in the seat of the antiChrist to be a confessional Lutheran. You say “they” take that view as if you do not hold to that view.

Can you clarify where you stand on the issue. Do you accept or reject that the Pope is/sits in the seat of the AntiChrist?

Who decided if that is part of the Lutheran belief then for a particular group of Lutherans?

Mary.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top