Does Vicar of Christ=Anti-Christ?

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Is it appropriate to put phone numbers in a piblic post?
Clem - I posted Edwards public office number which was given to me by St. Olaf’s Office of the President. It is also the number that is listed for Edwards on the Harvard Divinity School website. It’s not like I posted his personal phone number or anything. 🙂

Is that a problem somehow?
 
Mary,
Would it be appropriate for Lutherans to say to Catholics, on any number of teachings, that the Catholic Church has the power to “develop doctrine”, as they deem it necessary?

If so, would it be appropriate for Catholics to say to Lutherans, on any number of teachings, that the Lutheran Church has the power to “develop doctrine”, as they deem it necessary?

IOW, are we on each side willing to listen to what the other says, and accept that as what we believe, even if we don’t like it? Is it not our responsibility to say, we disagree with what you actually believe?

Can we mutually apply Archbishop Sheen’s quote, “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be,” to both sides?

If not, if we cannot do as anonymous posters what even our respective leadership can do, then the hope of lively, charitable dialogue, once the hallmark of this forum, is done.

Jon
It’s perfectly acceptable to disagree with doctrine on this forum.

This is the first “sticky”

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Of course not, and that might have something to do with the direction each charge goes in. As the one on the receiving end of “heretical”, I frankly see absolutely no difference at all. Am I supposed to be less offended because you think the term antiChrist is worse?
I can’t believe that anybody would think that the charge that the “Pope is the VERY Antichrist” isn’t worse than being on the receiving end of ‘heretical’. To suggest that it is, I think, is taking ‘in the eye of the beholder’ to an amazing extreme. Your LCMS official statement says very clearly that the Pope is the “VERY Antichrist” AND that the LCMS “subscribes” to that statement, in total.
Its also obvious that we do not consider the Catholic Church “completely” opposed to Christ (antiChrist), since there is significant agreement on doctrine between us.
We are not “completely opposed to Christ" (antichrist) BECAUSE there is significant agreement on doctrine between us. Jon – that means that the reason that we ARE ‘antiChrist’ is BECAUSE we disagree with YOU. That is an absolutely astonishing statement, but then it is EXACTLY like what Luther would say.

In other words, we are correct where we agree with you and wrong where we don’t. Where does that leave all of those competing and conflicting Lutheran denominations which disagree with you. Your position means that of ALL of Christianity, your 2 million members of the LCMS are the ones who believe and teach the gospel ‘correctly’. ALL others should have their doctrinal beliefs judged by the standard of what YOU believe, by a Standard that YOU establish. How do you think that looks to all of the other 99.9% of Christianity?

This “you are right where you agree with us” reminds me of Luther’s self-verification of his own position.

Luther was pretty upset with the way that he had been treated by the Church.

“….the popes should not have treated him in such an arrogant way. Luther was not aware that a similar criticism might have been addressed against his own attitude toward the pope.” (Lutheran) Martin Brecht, Vol. III, pg. 362.

This Lutheran Scholar admits that Luther was not able to see that his argument could easily be turned around and used against him. He was clueless. You realize of course that those ‘other’ Protestants could just as easily say that Lutherans are correct where they agree with THEM, and in error where they are not, AND that they can make that argument using EXACTLY your argument very against you.

On the other hand, you of course realize that the arguments for the Authority of the Catholic Church and its Authority to Teach, are unique, and cannot be used by any Protestant communion, and that is because we do NOT believe in Sola Scriptura.

A lot of those other tens of thousands of Protestant communions offer up that exact same view of their own ‘almost infallibility’. And they are ALL based on the doctrines of man.

Your Confessions accuse the Pope of being the “Very Antichrist” with Antichrist capitalized.

Your Confessions also, in the very same manner, are extremely insulting to the ‘adherents’. In the past I have had a tremendous amount of difficulty in finding out who these ‘adherents’ actually are. Hopefully, this time I will be able to find out.
 
In the following Confessional document we find that the accusation against the Pope (that he is the VERY Antichrist), is very closely associated with the accusations leveled against the Catholic ‘adherents’. Hopefully we can find out specifically and exactly who these ‘adherents’ are. Possibly that will shed more light on the nature of the accusation that the Pope is the "VERY Antichrist).

The Formula of Concord - A Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, Treatise Compiled by the Theologians Assembled at Smalcald – 1537

INTRODUCTION TO THE TREATISE ON THE POWER AND PRIMACY OF THE POPE

“39] Now, it is manifest that the **Roman pontiffs, with their adherents, defend [and practice] godless doctrines and godless services. And the marks [all the vices] of Antichrist plainly agree with the kingdom of the Pope and his adherents. **

57] Therefore, even though the bishop of Rome had the primacy by divine right, yet since he defends godless services and doctrine conflicting with the Gospel, obedience is not due him; yea, it is necessary to resist him as Antichrist.

59] But those who agree with the Pope, and defend his doctrine and [false] services, defile themselves with idolatry and blasphemous opinions, become guilty of the blood of the godly, whom the Pope [and his adherents] persecutes, detract from the glory of God, and hinder the welfare of the Church, because they strengthen errors and crimes to all posterity…”

#39 makes it very clear that ‘all the marks of antichrist’ are on ‘Roman pontiffs, with their adherents’. #57 makes it very clear that the Pope – ‘him’ is antichrist. The ‘him’ is personal and does not refer to an office. #59 again mentions the Pope AND his ‘adherents’. Apparently though, all you have to do to ‘qualify’ to be an ‘adherent’ is “agree with the Pope”.

**There is absolutely NO mention of the ‘office’ of the papacy in this document. **The idea of the office of the papacy was well known when this document was written, and yet there is NO reference to the ‘office’. The reason is obviously because they didn’t want to “water down” their ultra-offensive accusation.

It would seem that the ‘adherents’ are people who, like me, are loyal to the Church and to the Bishop of Rome. Apparently according to the Lutheran Confessions, I, personally, bear the mark of the antichrist.

So Jon, these are your Confessions and I would like to get your opinion as to who these ‘adherents’ are. They “defend [and practice] godless doctrines and godless services.” These ‘adherents’ also bear all of the “marks, [all the vices] of Antichrist plainly agree with the kingdom of the Pope and his adherents.”

That’s a pretty serious accusation to lay on just ordinary laypeople like me, if that is what this is referring to. So again, I ask – who are the adherents?

**One last thing Jon – clearly the validity and authority of the Lutheran Confessional documents, including those which are so offensive to Catholics, rest upon the Authority (or lack thereof) of Martin Luther. In fact, those Confessions were actually FOUNDED upon Luther’s authority, and to some degree, were used to supplant the Authority of Luther after decades of a formal authority resting in either him personally, or his writings. **

Without Luther’s authority, your Confessions have none, at least none in terms of Authority actually from God. If that is the case, the accusations of the FofC Lutherans against the Pope and the adherents are no more serious than unjustified and unsupported name calling. But since FofC Lutherans take those accusations MUCH more seriously than that, it falls on them to prove that those Confessions have some kind of valid Authority in the Eyes of God. If Confessional Lutheranism cannot prove this, or if it doesn’t, then it would appear that even they don’t believe that they have any authority in God’s Eyes. In that case, they are just the opinions of a small group of men, and they could be dismissed as such, EXCEPT that you claim to desire reunion with us, and WILL NOT discard them in order to foster an environment in which that unity could progress.
 
Topper,
why do you feel the need to derail threads and go on anti-Lutheran rants? I’m a Catholic and I see it as well as others.
Here’s the bottom line: What Luther wrote in the confessional creeds no longer apply to the vast majority of Protestants. It’s an historical relic. They have no time machine available to change history, so why go on about it? The OP’s question has been answered.
You’re posting style and demeanor is a turn-off. Maybe you should heed the mod’s warning.
 
Topper,
why do you feel the need to derail threads and go on anti-Lutheran rants? I’m a Catholic and I see it as well as others.
Here’s the bottom line: What Luther wrote in the confessional creeds no longer apply to the vast majority of Protestants. It’s an historical relic. They have no time machine available to change history, so why go on about it? The OP’s question has been answered.
You’re posting style and demeanor is a turn-off. Maybe you should heed the mod’s warning.
The mod just noted to stick to the topic and the topic is not Topper. It’s against forum rules to make a poster the topic.

The topic IS Does the Vicar of Christ equal the antichrist and severalconfessional Lutherans have noted here that they feel the office of the Papacy is antichrist so it is ON TOPIC to discuss that.

Although there is no time machine to change history certainly the Lutherans that do still profess this could determine is no longer applies as a poster here says it is not necessary to profess this and remain a confessional Lutheran.

Then why profess it. Because some confessional Lutherans still believe as such.
Thus it’s open for discussion

Mary.
 
No “Vicar of Christ” doesn’t equal “Anti-Christ” except in the minds of those who are Anti-Catholic.
 
No “Vicar of Christ” doesn’t equal “Anti-Christ” except in the minds of those who are Anti-Catholic.
I agree with this that it takes some sort of an anti Catholic mindset to begin with to believe a doctrine that was man made by those that hated the Church and the Pope.

Mary.
 
If it was addressed earlier, can someone point me to the development of this doctrine? How did it come to be understood as time passed? Is it continuous teaching with fuller understanding, or were the statements simply disowned by later generations of Lutherans? Either way, no problem, you believe what you believe. But it seems to me that a Church founded in Christ can follow a continuity in Christ.

In Catholicism we can look at earlier Church pronouncements like Unam Sanctam, take the full context into account, and follow the continuous development of understanding.
 
If it was addressed earlier, can someone point me to the development of this doctrine? How did it come to be understood as time passed? Is it continuous teaching with fuller understanding, or were the statements simply disowned by later generations of Lutherans? Either way, no problem, you believe what you believe. But it seems to me that a Church founded in Christ can follow a continuity in Christ.

In Catholicism we can look at earlier Church pronouncements like Unam Sanctam, take the full context into account, and follow the continuous development of understanding.
I think this article is a good starting point:

wlsessays.net/files/ToppeSmalcald.pdf

It describes Luther’s initial attitude towards the Pope, and how he comes to believe he is the anti-Christ, and has some recent statements as to some Lutheran bodies that still subscribe to this teaching and charge.

This is from the last page of the article:

*Protestantism, generally, rejects the doctrine of the Antichrist even when there may be more evidence that the Roman church is the church of the Antichrist today than in Luther’s day, even when the papacy is now heaping more humiliation on the world’s Redeemer than it did in the Reformer’s day. Today historical criticism, for example, is destroying even the fundamentals of Christian truth. In Luther’s day the Roman church still professed faith in the Trinity, the inspiration of Scripture, and the deity of Christ, because Scripture declared these truths. Today “Roman Catholic scientific biblical scholarship operates with all the tools of historicalcriticism, form history, and redaction history in the production of commentaries and translations.”lxxxvi Today,
Thomas Sheehan reports: “In Roman Catholic seminaries, for example, it is now common teaching that Jesus of Nazareth did not assert any of the divine or messianic claims the Gospels attribute to him and that he died without believing he was Christ or the Son of God, not to mention the founder of a new religion.” “Today,
Sheehan contends, ‘one would be hard pressed’ to find a Catholic biblical scholar who maintains that Jesus was the divine Son of God, or who believes in the doctrines of the Trinity, the virginity of Mary, the miracles, the founding of the Church by Jesus, the Resurrection, or immortal life.”lxxxvii

.
The concern for the salvation of society is displacing the concern for the salvation of souls. The introduction to The Documents of Vatican II states: “Taken as a whole, the documents are especially noteworthy for their concern with the poor, for their insistence on the unity of the human family and therefore on the wrongness of discrimination, for their repeated emphasis on the Christian’s duty to help build a just and peaceful world, a duty which he must carry out in brotherly cooperation with all men of good will.”lxxxix If this sounds like a quotation from NCC literature of 50 years ago, it is because the Catholic Church in America has belatedly appropriated the social gospel of liberal Protestants, just as it has contracted the virus of its historical criticism.
In the crisis generated by Vatican II, papal Rome has been forced to reexamine its posture, its role, and its very essence, but it has only confirmed its antichristian teaching and practice. It has strayed even farther from the truth it still possessed when this century began. It has been weighed in the balance of the three great solas and has been found wanting. Above the God-revealed sola scriptura it still elevates tradition—the experience and the mind of the “Church.” To the God-given sola gratia it still adds its sine qua non of human merit. To the God-ordained sola fide it still opposes its mandate of obedience to “the commandments of God and of the church.” If anything, despite its professed allegiance to Christ, despite its “Lord, Lord,” it has become even more “Christ-less” than before. If anything, it has added its weight and prestige to the forces that are building up to dissolve Christian faith and Christian confession in our day. If anything, there is even more reason to declare, “Papam esse ipsum verum Antichristum,” and even more reason to pray that the confidence of Luther’s closing prayer will abide with us: “Of this we should be certain and animate ourselves with the hope that Christ, our Lord, has attacked His adversary, and he will press the attack home both by His Spirit and coming. Amen.”
*

And this was in 1989. We catholics indeed are looked at an adherents of the Anti-Christ…to this day. :eek:
 
If it was addressed earlier, can someone point me to the development of this doctrine? How did it come to be understood as time passed? Is it continuous teaching with fuller understanding, or were the statements simply disowned by later generations of Lutherans? Either way, no problem, you believe what you believe. But it seems to me that a Church founded in Christ can follow a continuity in Christ.

In Catholicism we can look at earlier Church pronouncements like Unam Sanctam, take the full context into account, and follow the continuous development of understanding.
Perhaps I can elaborate on the Confessional Lutheran view. Before I start, I should say that I am in no way “Anti-Catholic.” I’m married to a wonderful Catholic woman, we have one child born and another due next month. We pray together, and we go attend each other’s churches together. We both love Pope Francis, though I don’t agree with the uniquely Roman Catholic concept of a pope to begin with. In fact, my brand of Evangelical Catholicism (Missouri Synod Lutheran) even uses the word “antichrist” to describe the office of the papacy, though we NEVER apply that label to the good men themselves who hold that office. Frankly, we never really talk about the topic; I’ve never heard it in a sermon, and only briefly touched on in a study on the Confessions. We’re too busy feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, sending millions of mosquito nets to Africa, and testifying alongside our Catholic brothers and sisters for religious freedom. Anyway…

We look to our history and the early church fathers for guidance, just as the Catholic Church does. We generally acknowledge that Jesus appointed Peter as the first “episcopos,” or shepherd/overseer/bishop because of his clear confession of faith. We acknowledge that Jesus then granted the same to his other disciples who would, in turn, appoint others. But Peter was the first. It is clear that the early Christians gave Peter special treatment - not because he had any magical god-given powers, but simply because his appointment commemorated a special event relating to Christ (Lutherans are big about relating things to that Jesus guy). It is clear the other Christian bishops respected him as the “Primus Inter Pares,” or First among Equals. Lutherans see early proof of Papal Primacy, but not Supremacy. Catholics make no distinction between the two.

We see this system worked well for the early church. When they needed a dispute settled, Peter acted as arbiter and all the parties hashed it out politely in a Council (unless Jolly ol’ St. Nick was around to deck the heretics, of course). We see this happen very early - in the Book of Acts, we see Paul disagree with the “circumcision party.” We see he goes to Peter to meet with those who accused him of preaching a false gospel. We see Peter was originally on the wrong ‘side.’ We see Paul walk up to the big, respected First Episcopos and tell him off. We see clearly, in Scripture, that even the First among Equals could err.

We see years go by, we see the Holy Spirit guide the Church into governing itself via the Pentarchy. One by one, we see invasions and civil wars take down member after member of the Pentarchy until the only truly functional Patriarchs are in Constantinople and Rome. We see the Roman Patriarchy bought and sold by powerful Italian families. We see in Italy, for political reasons, the Pope is no longer considered just the ‘First among Equals,’ but actually the sole “Vicar of Christ,” from whom all other bishops derive their jurisdiction. He was said to be not only exercising the power given to Peter, but literally holding Jesus’s spot on earth and, therefore, held jurisdiction over all of Christendom. That didn’t fly too well with the other functioning member of the Pentarchy (Enter the Great Schism of 1054). We see Western world revolt a bit to the Italian power-grab, and the Vatican responds with Unam Sanctam, clearly articulating the Papacy’s views. We see questionable theology creep into the church, leading to a highjacking of the church’s mission and a conflation of the secular and religious spheres. We see petition after petition for reform rejected by the Vatican. And so, the Reformation takes place.

You mention context, and I think that’s a necessary thing. The Lutheran view of the Papacy didn’t spawn exclusively out of Luther’s little head. The Concilliary faction had always existed within the Church Catholic; most of it went East in the Great Schism, and the remaining proponents in the West were generally silenced by Medici’s, Borgias, and others until the Lutherans assembled at Smalcald found a way to articulate what they viewed as an abuse of the office.

Continued…
 
Continued…

The Lutherans went on to say that the Pope’s actions were antichrist --that is, simply, sadly, and literally-- anti-to-Christ’s call to love God and neighbor. People often like to cite the Lutheran choice of language in the Treatise as proof that Lutherans are “potty-mouthed Prottys who hate the Pope and Catholics!” But they fail to understand the Lutheran definition of “Antichrist.” If ever there was an appropriate use for the Inigo Montoya meme, this is it.

The important thing to remember is that when a Lutheran says someone is acting anti-Christ, they DON’T mean some “Left Behind” character invented in the 1990’s by a couple of illiterate pesudo-theologians. They mean simply the biblical definition. Any episcopos who advocates against the mission of the church can be antichrist. A pedophile priest is antichrist. The Westboro Baptist Church is antichrist. A pastor who teaches “Prosperity Gospel” is antichrist. A preacher who claims special powers or special revelation is antichrist. That word used to be a strictly theological term, used almost surgically to correct heterodoxy. It didn’t carry such absurd and spiteful stigma until dispensationalists came about in the late 1800s, screamed the sky was falling, and cast Nicholas Cage in a terrible movie.

As to the status of those original views today? They are still subscribed to, without reservation, by Confessional Lutherans. But the thing to keep in mind is that the three Lutheran accusations have always remained entirely CONDITIONAL; when the papacy stops excercising these powers, the charge no longer applies. Most Confessional Lutherans say it still applies today, though a growing number questions that answer. After all, No.2 is no fits, since the pope in no longer a kingmaker. The effort to walk back No.1 began at Vatican II, and appears to continue with Benedict XVI’s and Francis’s humble and Christian examples. No.3 was essentially jettisoned at Vatican II. So the only remaining charge is No.1, and even that isn’t totally exercised by today’s popes. This has raised talk in Lutheran circles as to whether the charge of antichrist even applies anymore (and consequently, whether Lutherans have legitimate reason for continuing their protest… but that’s another novel).

Basically, traditional Lutherans tend to follow what the primary writer of the Treatise (Philip Melanchthon) wrote when he signed it:
Regarding the Pope I hold that, if he would allow the Gospel, his superiority over the bishops which he has otherwise, is conceded to him by human right also by us, for the sake of the peace and general unity of those Christians who are also under him, and may be under him hereafter.
We Lutherans wouldn’t be opposed to having a pope again. It’d make things a heckuva lot easier, frankly. We just don’t like the idea of a pope who is believed (rightly or wrongly) to be taking God’s place. And so that’s where you’ll hear many say things like, “The *office *of the papacy is antichrist; but Pope Francis himself is a wonderful example for all Christians to follow.” Just take a look at one Lutheran pastor’s suggestion that Lutherans reconsider the Papacy.
 
=Topper17;13290391]I can’t believe that anybody would think that the charge that the “Pope is the VERY Antichrist” isn’t worse than being on the receiving end of ‘heretical’. To suggest that it is, I think, is taking ‘in the eye of the beholder’ to an amazing extreme. Your LCMS official statement says very clearly that the Pope is the “VERY Antichrist” AND that the LCMS “subscribes” to that statement, in total.
That’s because you’re not on that particular receiving end, and there you go trying to tell me what we believe.
We are not “completely opposed to Christ" (antichrist) BECAUSE there is significant agreement on doctrine between us. Jon – that means that the reason that we ARE ‘antiChrist’ is BECAUSE we disagree with YOU. That is an absolutely astonishing statement, but then it is EXACTLY like what Luther would say.
Actually, the confessions say you disagree with scripture, and the early councils. But of course we disagree with you,and you with us. There is, however vast areas of agreement between us, and for this we should thank God.
In other words, we are correct where we agree with you and wrong where we don’t.
Well, yeah, of course. What kind of sense would it make to say we disagree with you, and you’re right?
Where does that leave all of those competing and conflicting Lutheran denominations which disagree with you. Your position means that of ALL of Christianity, your 2 million members of the LCMS are the ones who believe and teach the gospel ‘correctly’. ALL others should have their doctrinal beliefs judged by the standard of what YOU believe, by a Standard that YOU establish. How do you think that looks to all of the other 99.9% of Christianity?
And every single one of them, every one, is the result of the failure of the western Church, under the leadership of the western see, to maintain unity. We’ve been through this before as well. The vast number of Lutheran synods, those within the Lutheran tradition, are in communion with the members of one of two groups, the LWF, or the ILC.
I’ve told you that before, linked to the websites, and you continue to misrepresent.
Luther was pretty upset with the way that he had been treated by the Church.
“….the popes should not have treated him in such an arrogant way. Luther was not aware that a similar criticism might have been addressed against his own attitude toward the pope.” (Lutheran) Martin Brecht, Vol. III, pg. 362.
Of the two of us, only I have been willing to admit to the arrogance on Luther’s part.
And by the way, I am not Martin Luther! I am not obligated to defend things he said 500 years ago, if I disagree with them. So, please stop asking me to. Its uncharitable and frankly it has become annoying.
This Lutheran Scholar admits that Luther was not able to see that his argument could easily be turned around and used against him. He was clueless. You realize of course that those ‘other’ Protestants could just as easily say that Lutherans are correct where they agree with THEM, and in error where they are not, AND that they can make that argument using EXACTLY your argument very against you.
And the Catholic Church, too. Hence, back to the obvious, we disagree with each other, and it would be idiotic to say, we disagree, and I think you’re right.
A lot of those other tens of thousands of Protestant communions offer up that exact same view of their own ‘almost infallibility’. And they are ALL based on the doctrines of man.
I have no idea what “almost infallible” means, but again, we’re not the ones who claim infallibility for a bishop, ex cathedra.
Your Confessions accuse the Pope of being the “Very Antichrist” with Antichrist capitalized.
And your popes have accused us of being heretics, incapable of salvation simply because we are not in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
Here’s the point: you don’t get to interpret what confessions mean. We do. And every time you misrepresent what the confessions mean, after I and numerous other Lutherans here have tried over and over and over again to explain it, linking to what the LCMS has said, simply means you have no interest in understanding it, and no interest in dialogue.
Your Confessions also, in the very same manner, are extremely insulting to the ‘adherents’. In the past I have had a tremendous amount of difficulty in finding out who these ‘adherents’ actually are. Hopefully, this time I will be able to find out.
I have posted and linked to a couple of articles that explains exactly what this means. Again, for reasons that are known to you alone, you have chosen to ignore that explanation. I frankly have no interest in going over it again.

Jon
 
If it was addressed earlier, can someone point me to the development of this doctrine? How did it come to be understood as time passed? Is it continuous teaching with fuller understanding, or were the statements simply disowned by later generations of Lutherans? Either way, no problem, you believe what you believe. But it seems to me that a Church founded in Christ can follow a continuity in Christ.

In Catholicism we can look at earlier Church pronouncements like Unam Sanctam, take the full context into account, and follow the continuous development of understanding.
This is an excellent question. I also wondered if the statements were disowned later.

Mary.
 
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