Does what we know about transgender people throw a wrench at Catholic teaching on sex and marriage?

[CaliLobo]

So at work we had a seminar on transgender people and etiquette when meeting a transgender person.

What I learned was honestly fascinating. We have long thought of gender as binary (male vs female), but it is scientifically very clear that gender is an analysis of four variables:

1. Assigned gender upon birth
2. Sexual orientation
3. Gender identity
4. Gender expression

What is also scientifically very clear is that these four variables can all be blurred, and have NO correlation with one another. And that is what explains the existence of gays (#1 not correlated with #2), transgender (#1 not correlated with #3 and #4), and intersex people (#1 is blurred and not correlated with #3 and #4). #2 can be blurred (bisexuality, transgender attraction), and #3 and #4 can be blurred (genderqueer, crossdressing, switching gender identity in one’s mind, etc.) And transgender people can also be gay or straight (all four variables not correlated).

My question then is,** if it’s scientifically very evident that our concept of gender, which we long thought of as binary, instead is expressed by a wide range of values for the four variables above, and humans do exhibit this wide range of values, then doesn’t that throw a wrench into Catholic teaching on sex, gender, and marriage?**

Doesn’t this also add ammunition to the idea that Catholic teaching is losing relevance in modern society, because the Catholic Church, with its insistence on upholding tradition, becomes hostage to its doctrines and cannot change according to what we now know scientifically?

 

[R_C]

if it’s scientifically very evident that our concept of gender, which we long thought of as binary, instead is expressed by a wide range of values for the four variables above,

It’s not.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

What I want to know is why isn’t biological gender not part of your enumeration?

 

[thuylinhnhomin]

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[wmw]

Why is our range of exibitions a guide to moral and/or socially accepable conduct?
Many more humans have exibitied their individual range of values to steal from others. By your argument we should say all religious and legal barriers to theft are woefully out of touch with these ranges of lifestyle and consequences of difficult childhoods.

 

[The_Reginator]

if it’s scientifically very evident that our concept of gender, which we long thought of as binary,

Don’t be fooled by fools.
Regardless of psychological considerations, we are born either male or female. The body we received at the moment of conception defines our gender. To say otherwise is not ‘scientific’ … it is nonsense.

A person may spend their lives feeling uncomfortable with their anatomy, but that is a cross to bear. We all have them in varying forms and degrees, but we all have our crosses to bear.Modern society doesn’t like that. All that matters to people is temporal happiness. If we are granted a great cross to bear then we will also be rewarded with great graces and a great reward in the hereafter. IF we carry our cross rather than doing something unnatural about it.
Trust in the Catholic Church and her teachings. They are the teachings passed on by God Himself.

 

[bzkoss236]

Gender is an objective reality based on our biology.
Anyone who identifies as something other than what they are have a disorder, whether or not this develops in the whom or not doesn’t matter.

The only people who I feel have legitimate reasons to question their sexual identity are those born intersex (born with both male and female parts). But even for that, there may be a resolution.

Also, we don’t seek to uphold tradition, we seek to uphold truth. Truth is objective, independent of what society or the majority holds.

 

[LittleDeb]

Your question is a valid question but the data presented to you was incredibly flawed. I don’t know that going point by point is worth it. But one thing that you can know right away is that when anything uses the term “gender” when referring to people and animals, their information is likely not well peer reviewed. The term “gender” applies to nouns. In most Latin based languages except English, all nouns are gendered. People and animals are sexed. Nouns don’t reproduce; people do.

While we are called as Catholics to prevent all unjust forms of discrimination, we are not required to buy into junk science. In countries where those who are born with intersexed or ambiguous genitalia are allowed to grow up naturally, the individuals will express a binary sex. It is only in countries, like the US, where our culture demands a label that other confusions manifest. Patrick Madrid had a great show recently on Catholic Answers radio where he briefly touched on a similar issue. He was addressing the so called “gay from birth” myth.

It doesn’t change anything in Catholic teaching. We are all called to chastity that is congruent to our individual state in life.

I hope that helps.

 

[ChibiViolet]

So at work we had a seminar on transgender people and etiquette when meeting a transgender person.

What I learned was honestly fascinating. We have long thought of gender as binary (male vs female), but it is scientifically very clear that gender is an analysis of four variables:

1. Assigned gender upon birth
2. Sexual orientation
3. Gender identity
4. Gender expression

What is also scientifically very clear is that these four variables can all be blurred, and have NO correlation with one another. And that is what explains the existence of gays (#1 not correlated with #2), transgender (#1 not correlated with #3 and #4), and intersex people (#1 is blurred and not correlated with #3 and #4). #2 can be blurred (bisexuality, transgender attraction), and #3 and #4 can be blurred (genderqueer, crossdressing, switching gender identity in one’s mind, etc.) And transgender people can also be gay or straight (all four variables not correlated).

My question then is,** if it’s scientifically very evident that our concept of gender, which we long thought of as binary, instead is expressed by a wide range of values for the four variables above, and humans do exhibit this wide range of values, then doesn’t that throw a wrench into Catholic teaching on sex, gender, and marriage?**

Doesn’t this also add ammunition to the idea that Catholic teaching is losing relevance in modern society, because the Catholic Church, with its insistence on upholding tradition, becomes hostage to its doctrines and cannot change according to what we now know scientifically?

We as people, are not born with an “assigned” gender, but are born either as a boy or a girl and we then grow up to be men and women. Sometimes there is a disorder in a person causing them to believe that they are in fact the opposite gender, or that they should be the opposite gender. Society today is more and more encouraging such disorders–mostly out of good intentions, but the result is a bunch of people being deceived about who God made them to be.** Science has shown that the disorder exists and people are taking it the wrong way.**

A man’s body doesn’t make sense by itself and neither does a woman’s. They were clearly designed for each other.

As far as “intersex” goes, no one really understands it yet. Hopefully they will soon, but they don’t yet. It seems to me to be a freak-of-nature-curse that doesn’t allow someone to know truly, what gender they are. (Sorry about the “freak-of-nature-curse.” If a person is born “intersex,” they really can’t help it, but I was just thinking about how disoriented I would feel if I were to find out that that’s what I am.)

 

[ChurchSoldier]

In the early part of last century there were studies showing sex with children was a natural act (you can Google yourself). It began the whole “sexual revolution”. Since science has become a God of sorts, it is thought if we can justify our actions scientifically, we can make the case it is moral. Sorry, doesn’t work that way. Just the latest iteration of Genesis 3.

 

[ManOnFire]

Many Progressives believe:

1. The world is becoming overpopulated
2. transgendered and homo are partial solutions to the overpopulation issue
3. God does not exist, so why follow tradition
4. Trans, bi, and homo can be created through promotion, just look at college campuses
5. There is no practical way to hire enough child psychiatrists to analyze all childrens’ needs and provide what their family is not giving them at a young age, especially when you consider numbers 2 and 3.

 

[JimG]

Don’t believe nonsense.

 

[aux1]

My question then is,** if it’s scientifically very evident that our concept of gender, which we long thought of as binary, instead is expressed by a wide range of values for the four variables above, and humans do exhibit this wide range of values, then doesn’t that throw a wrench into Catholic teaching on sex, gender, and marriage?**

Doesn’t this also add ammunition to the idea that Catholic teaching is losing relevance in modern society, because the Catholic Church, with its insistence on upholding tradition, becomes hostage to its doctrines and cannot change according to what we now know scientifically?

Yes and yes, as evidenced by responses you have received so far.

It’s a scientific fact that transsexuals have brain structure matching their psychological gender. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism#Brain_structure So it’s not a mere psychological disorder which can be cured through psychotherapy (as many here would like to believe), these people are literally hardwired to think like the other sex.

Also, I find the following sentiment among Catholics to be very disturbing:

Regardless of psychological considerations, we are born either male or female. The body we received at the moment of conception defines our gender.

This view basically asserts that a person is completely defined by their DNA. Of course, this conveniently ignores: epigenetics, influence of hormones on embryonic and fetal development (ever heard of CAIS - XY females?) and influence of environmental factors (pseudo-estrogens in drinking water, anyone?).

As evidenced by the post quoted above, some Catholics today hold dearly to a mindset where a person is defined by DNA. I’d find that rather amusing, if such mindset wasn’t downright scary. First off, if you believe that all your traits are in DNA, then the logical conclusion is that you could eliminate unwanted traits from the population by removing them from the gene pool. Oh, we’ve just invented eugenics. You have Catholics that decry eugenics, but somehow hold dearly to (scientifically inaccurate) idea it is based on. Second, Catholics believe that a human is made of body and soul. Yet, if everything is in DNA, then there is really no place for immaterial soul, is it? That “DNA is everything” view is pure materialism.

That’s a fundamentally anti-Catholic, anti-Christian idea. It has been picked up because it makes a nice anti-abortion argument, without realizing the amount of damage it carries.

A transsexual is a female soul in a male body (or vice versa), but you will never hear a Catholic saying that, since they’ve abandoned the concept of the soul in favor of genetic determinism.

 

[JimG]

A transsexual is a female soul in a male body (or vice versa), but you will never hear a Catholic saying that, since they’ve abandoned the concept of the soul in favor of genetic determinism.

You will not hear a Catholic saying that for a very good reason. A soul is a spiritual substance not composed of matter. To speak of a female soul in a male body is metaphysical nonsense. We are born with genders determined by our body.

 

[edwest2]

In the early part of last century there were studies showing sex with children was a natural act (you can Google yourself). It began the whole “sexual revolution”. Since science has become a God of sorts, it is thought if we can justify our actions scientifically, we can make the case it is moral. Sorry, doesn’t work that way. Just the latest iteration of Genesis 3.

The Kinsey Reports were deeply flawed and biased.

amazon.com/The-Kinsey-Corruption-Susan-Brinkmann/dp/1932645713

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Yes and yes, as evidenced by responses you have received so far.

It’s a scientific fact that transsexuals have brain structure matching their psychological gender. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism#Brain_structure So it’s not a mere psychological disorder which can be cured through psychotherapy (as many here would like to believe), these people are literally hardwired to think like the other sex.

Also, I find the following sentiment among Catholics to be very disturbing:

This view basically asserts that a person is completely defined by their DNA. Of course, this conveniently ignores: epigenetics, influence of hormones on embryonic and fetal development (ever heard of CAIS - XY females?) and influence of environmental factors (pseudo-estrogens in drinking water, anyone?).

As evidenced by the post quoted above, some Catholics today hold dearly to a mindset where a person is defined by DNA. I’d find that rather amusing, if such mindset wasn’t downright scary. First off, if you believe that all your traits are in DNA, then the logical conclusion is that you could eliminate unwanted traits from the population by removing them from the gene pool. Oh, we’ve just invented eugenics. You have Catholics that decry eugenics, but somehow hold dearly to (scientifically inaccurate) idea it is based on. Second, Catholics believe that a human is made of body and soul. Yet, if everything is in DNA, then there is really no place for immaterial soul, is it? That “DNA is everything” view is pure materialism.

That’s a fundamentally anti-Catholic, anti-Christian idea. It has been picked up because it makes a nice anti-abortion argument, without realizing the amount of damage it carries.

A transsexual is a female soul in a male body (or vice versa), but you will never hear a Catholic saying that, since they’ve abandoned the concept of the soul in favor of genetic determinism.

Your last statement is not scientifically valid. It is an emotional attack based on nothing science can demonstrate. Science does not recognize the soul as real.

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

I urge everyone to read the following:

ncregister.com/daily-news/psychiatrys-new-normal-transgendered-persons/

Peace,
Ed

 

[Stephanie_Pauls]

Don’t be fooled by fools.
Regardless of psychological considerations, we are born either male or female. The body we received at the moment of conception defines our gender. To say otherwise is not ‘scientific’ … it is nonsense.

A person may spend their lives feeling uncomfortable with their anatomy, but that is a cross to bear. We all have them in varying forms and degrees, but we all have our crosses to bear.Modern society doesn’t like that. All that matters to people is temporal happiness. If we are granted a great cross to bear then we will also be rewarded with great graces and a great reward in the hereafter. IF we carry our cross rather than doing something unnatural about it.
Trust in the Catholic Church and her teachings. They are the teachings passed on by God Himself.

All embryos start out feamle Testosterone is added later to make some males.

 

[JimG]

All embryos start out feamle Testosterone is added later to make some males.

No. An embryo which starts out with XY sex chromosomes is male.

In order for all embryos to start out female, they would all have to begin with XX sex chromosomes. They do not.

 

[silentfactor80]

…A transsexual is a female soul in a male body (or vice versa), but you will never hear a Catholic saying that, since they’ve abandoned the concept of the soul in favor of genetic determinism.

Souls are not male / female binaries. In fact souls are beyond gender because as spirits reproduction does not happen. We like to think of “male spirits” and “female spirits” but that is because of our own shortcoming in thinking.

“There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Gallatians 3:28