Does women way of dressing affect the possibility of sexual assault?

[Pug]

And your reaction is a bit extreme. The frump factor? This isn’t a joke, it’s really not. And I know what I’m talking about, I really do. The real world isn’t as neat and predictable as “studies” would have us all believe.

I apologize. I didn’t mean to insult rape victims by my use of the word “frump”. Nor do I in the least think it is a joke! I am a frump. I think I appear more vulnerable as a result. I am so obviously harmless and unlikely to be able to put up much of a fuss. Also, I cannot run. I think that is even a bigger factor than some of the other things mentioned. Perhaps my thinking is too dominated by how I see the risks as applying to myself. Most people refuse to take me seriously until they know me. But the first impression that I apparently exude is incompetence. The problem here is that you can’t see me, I think.

Although, now that I am older, the harassment that seems to be the lot of every female has ended. But are harassment and rape related?

The reason I bring up studies is that I would like to know how clothing matters. It is something that women could easily change. But I don’t see the point in making changes that no one knows will help.

 

[fix]

…** If it is someone else’s fault that our young girls are snatched and assaulted, then it is someone else’s fault that our cars are stolen when we leave the keys in and the doors unlocked in a public place. Everyone with an ounce of sense will do what they can to protect their cars and not leave them open. You never hear anyone say, “I should be allowed to leave my car unlocked, and if someone steals it, that’s their fault!” We understand this in the realm of cars and material possessions, but why don’t we understand it in relation to our daughters?..**

There is a difference between the way people judge rape victims and the way people judge a careless motorist.

If you leave the keys in your car, no one is going to suggest that you deserved to have your car stolen. The robber will be laughed at if he claims that you secretly wanted your car robbed. No court in the country will allow the robber to use the defense that you were asking for your car to be robbed or that the robber couldn’t control himself because the keys were left in the car and he/she just had to rob that car.

So yes, it is someone else’s fault if your car is robbed despite the fact that you left the key in the ignition.

But, you are only viewing it from a legal standpoint. Is there not more to consider in these cases than simply the legal evidence needed to convict someone?

Would you advise another to leave their keys in the car and leave the car unlocked? If not, why not?

 

[fix]

Fix;

But the thing is, even if you dress in a potato sack, you are not going to be any safer.

Can you prove that is true in each and every case?

The things that make women safer are more aggressive behaviour and more awareness of their surroundings. Even dressed in a potato sack, if you wander along the street lost in your own little world, you are still more likely to be a rape victim than someone dressed for a night out at the club, but walking quickly in a straight line, looking around, talking to people, and fully aware of her surroundings.

That is good for general information, but it excludes particular cases. No one is saying attacks do not happen to women in potato sacks.

 

[deb1]

But, you are only viewing it from a legal standpoint. Is there not more to consider in these cases than simply the legal evidence needed to convixt someone?

Would you advise another to leave their keys in the car and leave the car unlocked? If not, why not?

Although I wouldn’t advise anyone to leave their car unlocked, I wouldn’t advise anyone to buy the types of cars that are commonly stolen either. Either way, it isn’t the victim’s fault if their vehicile is stolen.

I haven’t read any studies that state that how a woman dresses affects her chances of being raped. So, it is a moot point.

Now does certain actions of a female affect or decrease her chances of being raped? That is a different question. Young women are often told to carry pepper spray and to park under city lights late at night. As a young woman, my friends and I used to always look in the back seat before we got into the car.

It appears to me that a woman’s appearance of vulnerability has more to do with her chances of rape then her clothing.

By the way, I like LAF website.

 

[Pug]

Women are also very independent here, and that is a bull’s-eye painted on their backs right there. They are *really *easy to get alone and to catch off guard. Oh, yeah…and the apprehension rate of criminals is the lowest here for developed nations.

I completely agree that it is about vulnerability. That was my point in a previous post:
one of my previous posts:

I think being vulnerable is more important than looking vulnerable. Certain situations increase the danger. This for me is the KEY factor.

I utterly agree that women are in dangerous situations in this country. I remember being a young girl at college and having to walk home at night. Basically, I did not use the library. Why? Because I’d have to walk home in the dark. I just didn’t do many things. (I went to a college with one of the highest rape rates in the country, and they made sure we knew it).

I would have loved to have been protected as a teenager.

 

[jmcrae]

That is good for general information, but it excludes particular cases. No one is saying attacks do not happen to women in potato sacks.

People are confusing rape with unwanted sexual advances, I think.

Unwanted sexual advances are annoying, but not usually fatal, and yes, the way to avoid unwanted sexual advances is to avoid dressing up or going out to clubs, etc.

Rape is not an unwanted sexual advance, though. It’s a violent act that usually ends in the severe injury or death of the victim. It’s opportunistic - the nearest female will do, regardless of how she is dressed, just as long as she doesn’t look like she would put up a fight, or even know what was happening to her.

 

[fix]

Although I wouldn’t advise anyone to leave their car unlocked, I wouldn’t advise anyone to buy the types of cars that are commonly stolen either. Either way, it isn’t the victim’s fault if their vehicile is stolen.

This point should be parsed carefully. No one who is attacked is to be blamed. That should be off the table for discussion. No one is asking for their car to be stolen. It is not even logical, but is it unreasonable to conlcude certain types of things are better to do and certain types are things are better not to do?

If someone askes ought I leave the keys in the ignition or ought I lock my doors and take my keys what do you advise? Do you say hey leave them in their if someone steals your car it is not your fault?

I haven’t read any studies that state that how a woman dresses affects her chances of being raped. So, it is a moot point.

So, studies are the exclusive purveyor of truth in these issues? They can account for the mind and will of every single male who attacks a woman in every single case?

I would think that discussing actions that a woman could take to help her avoid rape would be a more productive discussion then the young lady’s clothing, which doesn’t seem to have as much bearing on being a victim as her overall appearance of vulnerability.

I disagree.

By the way, I like LAF website.

They are counter cultural.

 

[fix]

People are confusing rape with unwanted sexual advances, I think.

Unwanted sexual advances are annoying, but not usually fatal, and yes, the way to avoid unwanted sexual advances is to avoid dressing up or going out to clubs, etc.

Rape is not an unwanted sexual advance, though. It’s a violent act that usually ends in the severe injury or death of the victim. It’s opportunistic - the nearest female will do, regardless of how she is dressed, just as long as she doesn’t look like she would put up a fight, or even know what was happening to her.

That is the standard rap people put out there. They have turned the evilness of rape into a medical condition. Things are not as neat and tidy as that.

 

[Sixtus]

If a person rapes, murders, covets, desires… the sin is THEIR fault. not the fault of the object of the crime.

always.

no wishy washy “she was wearing a short skirt so i…”

complete nonsense.

I am not trying to minimalise the horror of rape. It is a terrible crime. We must never forget the affects it has on victims of this terrible crime.

But, supposen a guy is an alcoholic and he is really trying to fight his addiction. Now is it fair to invite him to a bar, then ask him to go behind the bar then for the bar tender to walk away and leave him for several hours?

I hope you would agree with me it would not be his fault entirely if he succombed and helped himself to a drink.

Likewise, supposen a person has a problem with shoplifing and a supermarket advertised that in future, no further action would be taken against shoplifters. They would be forgiven and sent on their way. Would it be hardly surprising if their record of shoplifing increased?

Any man will know that men are programmed biologically to propagate the spicies. It is a powerful drive in men. Most men spend most of thier lives thinking about ‘getting laid’. Most men experience physical reactions over which they have no control.

Men vary. There are those of us, for whom sex is something we can live with or without. We are the fortunate ones. There are many more men for whom sex is so important that they would rather die than be permanently deprived of sex.

They are not happy they have such powerful sex drives. They fear castration as their worst nightmare, but paradoxically, those who have been chemically castrated report they are truely liberated. T6hey never want to go back to how they felt before.

In the interests of protecting both women and children, I believe their is a case for compulsory chemical castration of all males from puberty onwards until they reach marriage and then only under the strictest supervision of a medical practitioner.

I have heard of cases offenders [see my last posting] where boys as young as 8-years old, have reported that they spend all day day dreaming about penetrating. That they are unable to control their impulses.

Even boys who do not know about sex, or do not know what men and women do to propagate the species. They do not know what it is for, but know instinctively where it needs to go. That is tragic. But it is a biological fact.

I also believe the media plays a role. It promotes sex and tells men that if they are not having sex, they are not ‘normal’. This needs addressing too!

So, it appears the media is partly responsible. Nature is also responsible. Some men are unable to control their urges. For them [by their own admission] chemical intervention is the best solution. No doubt modest dress would also go someway towards alleviating unwanted attention.

 

[perez639]

The issue of sexual assault and how it happens is an extremely difficult thing to talk about. No one tries to construe a final idea or one possibility that leads to it. There are so many factors. Picking apart one thing such as dress could potentially play a role in a girl being more apt to being assaulted but I would say it is miniscule and most rare.

A few were asking about my case and just a little fyi…i am fine with talking about it.

The result of my case involoved detectives, an investigation, trial, the whole deal. It was extremely close to getting out in the news. However, at the time I was not strong enough. I was terrified that the jury would not believe me for whatever reason and was getting being verbally harassed from personal above my recruiter so i ended up dropping the case cold turkey. So nothing ever happened to the guy. I can only pray no other girl would be as foolish as i was for trusting him. That is my only regret for not following through.

And to go into a little bit of detail, one may think there must have been alcohol involved or something of that nature, but that too was not the case. He wanted to meet with me to discuss my final options and knew i was unsure about a lot of things in life since I had just gotten out of a relationship; he knew I was in a vulnerable state. The meeting place ended up being a trap and thats where it happened.

The only thing I wish was that I had the strength of a guy to fight him off, but once I knew what was going to happen I became paralyzed (literally) and could not react.

This is probably more than anyone needs to know and is just one case but dress, once again had NOTHING to do with it! If my natural appearance was what caused it or lead to it how could one prevent or avoid that? Where a mask?

Peace be with you all,

Regis University Student

 

[deb1]

So, studies are the exclusive purveyor of truth in these issues? They can account for the mind and will of every single male who attacks a woman in every single case?

.

Some rapist might be attracted to certain forms of dress, but I think that most rapist are simply looking for an easy target.

Studies can help because they can show what activities are more likely to lead to a greater likelihood of rape. Of course, no woman can protect herself completely from an attack.

I’m not certain about your reasoning of knowing the mind of every single rapists.

 

[deb1]

This point should be parsed carefully. No one who is attacked is to be blamed. That should be off the table for discussion. No one is asking for their car to be stolen. It is not even logical, but is it unreasonable to conlcude certain types of things are better to do and certain types are things are better not to do?

.

I certainly do not think that you or anyone else on this forum is blaming the victim. Discussing ways that women can lessen their chances of attack is not the same as blaming the victims. But the quote from LAf does appear to do so. As I said, I like much of what LAF says, but this is one point that I must disagree with them.

I’ll re-paste what the LAF contributor wrote: Perhaps her wording was bad.

If it is someone else’s fault that our young girls are snatched and assaulted, then it is someone else’s fault that our cars are stolen when we leave the keys in and the doors unlocked in a public place. Everyone with an ounce of sense will do what they can to protect their cars and not leave them open. You never hear anyone say, “I should be allowed to leave my car unlocked, and if someone steals it, that’s their fault!” We understand this in the realm of cars and material possessions, but why don’t we understand it in relation to our daughters?..

 

[Stu]

This is what I learned at Lady Beware.

To reduce the chances of becoming a rape victim…

Concealed Carry Permit can also be handy. Quite the equalizer.

 

[Pug]

Concealed Carry Permit can also be handy. Quite the equalizer.

In some states you can’t have a loaded gun in your purse. It is illegal.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I think that the hardest thing about this question is that there is no real ‘answer’ because (I hate to say this) every person is different.

Yes, there are sick, perverted people ‘out there’. Yes, there are rapists who are ‘attracted’ to what they think is ‘immodest’ clothing. . .BUT. . .the point to my mind is that, supposing by some miracle suddenly every woman in the world was attired in ‘modest’ clothing which (again by some miracle) had absolutely NO effect on any male’s ‘lascivity’ factor. . .do the number of rapes GO DOWN? Once the ‘shock’ wears off, how many people are really affected?

While there might indeed be a small subset of men who rape a target victim based on attire, attire is FOR THOSE MEN ONLY just a PART of the ‘attraction’ to rape. Even these men do NOT rape EVERY WOMAN THEY SEE WEARING ‘SUGGESTIVE’ ATTIRE. And if they are in a place where there is NO suggestive attire, they will pick something else to focus on.

So perhaps one woman walking down a street somewhere is ‘spared’ by the sudden ‘modesty’ compulsion that ONE day or night. . .But then there might be MORE than one woman the NEXT day or night attacked because they had dark hair, light hair, were young, old, tall, short. . .

How can you ‘level’ the playing field then? It’s IMPOSSIBLE!

We’d all like to feel more in CONTROL of ourselves. . . so we try to do the reasonable things. . .but we all know the 'health freak" who dies of a coronary at 40. Sometimes we can do everything ‘right’ but it just doesn’t work.

Thinking that just changing one’s dress style will give you ‘protection’ is a false sense of security. It MAY --repeat MAY–but it may not. It depends not on YOU but on the RAPIST. If by good luck you happen not to ‘fit his profile’, you may be safe. . .but then again, even if you’re NOT ‘his type’, there are so many other factors. . .maybe he’s extra agitated, maybe you appear vulnerable, maybe you even remind him of the fourth grade teacher he hated. . .and then you’re TOAST even if you are dressed with total modesty.

 

[Stu]

TE,

All good points. But given everyone is not going to become cookie cutter replications anytime soon, I would think you would agree that street smarts would indicate that one does not want to draw attention to oneself especially in an unfamiliar environment. There is something to be said for “staying under the radar scan” of a potential perp.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

True, Stu, but there is no real way to stay, “under the radar” of EVERY rapist. For example, there are rapists out there who target elderly women. If you’re an elderly woman, you can’t make yourself younger.

There are rapists who target the shy modest women as well as the ‘provocative’ dressed women. If you’re dressed modestly, you can be attacked; if you’re dressed suggestively you can be attacked. You can be attacked on the street; you can be attacked at home. You can be attacked in a big city or a small town.

You can be attacked if you’re old, young, or inbetween; white, black, yellow; rich, poor… .

You can be attacked if you’re ‘reckless’ or if you’re a recluse.

Like I said, we like to feel ‘in control’ so we think that if we follow the rules, if we make certain decisions, if we act certain ways, that certain things will happen. But there is always the element of uncertainty. Because when it comes down to it, it isn’t the woman’s decision about the rape–it’s the man’s. And the things that we think might be a deterrant just maybe aren’t enough for THAT MAN. The reasons and the rational thinking we have are not enough if the person who attacks us is IRRATIONAL, or has a different or unforeseen or to him more IMPORTANT set of reasons for his attacks.

 

[Stu]

TE,

But see I agree with you on the irrational part. That in part is why I mentioned the Concealed Carry Permit, a right which I myself exercise. Even with nothing being 100%, I still believe trying to “fit in” is the best course of action to avoid being a victim.

 

[Montalban]

You are misreading my post Montalban. I am not suggesting that the type of clothing leads to rape. Neither am I saying that a rapist should be found innocent because of the clothing of the victim.

I am not. You made a claim that they are making this as a defence. I stated that they can’t where ‘rape shield’ laws exist.

I in no way suggest you agree with them

I am saying the exact opposite, but I am pointing out that rape victims are very sadly judged in our society in a way in which other victims of crimes are not.

SImply because I am pointing this out does not mean that I agree with that judgement.

What type of absurd argument could they make (accepting that you don’t agree with them) that allows them to cut off a woman’s hand?

 

[kellie]

Are we talking about rape in general, or are we talking only about specific types of rapes/rapists?

It just seems that most people here are lumping all rapes and victims into one large category and then denying that the premise could be possible because it isn’t present in all rapes. This just seems foolish to me. Especially among the women here. It just seems foolish.

Denial doesn’t make you safe. Caution does increase your chance of safety though. And you can’t be cautious if you don’t understand the danger. And even if not all victims are chosen because of a certain criteria, i.e., appearance or dress, some are, and that should be enough to raise a red flag for anyone who doesn’t want to be in that particular category of victims.

To try to deny that some women are chosen because of their look is insane. There are many serial rapist/killers who have given us a look into their evil minds and revealed these things to us. Why are people unwilling to acknowledge this? I find that in itself frightening.

I have to go back to what I said previously. I’m not talking about a woman being responsible for her rape. I think we all acknowledge that the rapist is absolutely the only one to blame for his actions. I’m talking about women being proactive in trying to *not be the one that stands out from the crowd *by her appearance, making her more susceptible to victimization by certain types of rapists.

We really don’t have to be rocket scientists to understand this, do we?:whacky:

And some rapists only ever attack old women, 70+ years old.
So when I hit 70 should I stay indoors?

And some rapists only attack sporty women who jog down the street at 6.00a.m in their tracksuits.
Should I give up my fitness routine?

And some rapists only attack women who are alone in a car park after doing some shopping.
Should I only ever drive my car with a passenger?

Sorry to sound sarcastic, but to say that there are certain types of rapists, and that women need to lessen the danger of being attractive to the different types is ludicrous(i think i spelt that wrong)