Does women way of dressing affect the possibility of sexual assault?

[Sixtus]

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

If a person rapes, murders, covets, desires… the sin is THEIR fault. not the fault of the object of the crime.

always.

But 6there is such a thing as ‘setting someone up to fail’!

Would you tempt an alcoholic with a bottle of malt whisky or Cognac? Or would you offer them a glass of non-alcolic drink?

 

[jmcrae]

Would you tempt an alcoholic with a bottle of malt whisky or Cognac? Or would you offer them a glass of non-alcoholic drink?

I wouldn’t invite an alcoholic to a drinking party to begin with, but if an alcoholic came to a drinking party of mine without my knowing he was an alcoholic, I’d expect him to know his own limitations, and avoid drinking anything alcoholic, without me having to babysit him.

 

[Stu]

Good - then you will go out on a purging campaign to get rid of all the rapists, to either cure them or lock them away forever - instead of pontificating upon how women ought to dress, while leaving these monsters out there to do whatever they want.

Because there should be no death penalty for poor dress sense, either for women, or for men.

I will educate ALL of my family on precautions to take to minimize one’s chances in being a viction of crime no matter what flavor. Additionally, I have the whole family enrolled in Karate so they can learn self defense. In the event a criminal comes into my home or confronts me in public while I am legally armed (which is about 95% of the time), I will shoot him or her with the intention of putting them down for good.

It’s all about minimizing one’s chances of being victimized.

(BTW, Mrs. Stu is now learning to shoot too. Attacker beware, women usually have a steadier aim than men.)

 

[Stu]

I don’t know if this is true. Most men are not rapist. You might get excited by a woman but that is a long cry from rape. It is a far cry from seeing a woman and imagining that you would like to have sex with her and seeing a woman as someone you’d like to ***force ***to have sex with you.

Then again, I have a very high opinion of most of you guys.

The above remark was offered as a “tit for tat” or “absurd for absurd” and nothing more.

I hope I can stay in that high opinion.

 

[deb1]

I. Additionally, I have the whole family enrolled in Karate so they can learn self defense. .)

I am serious in my following question and not being sarcastic. Would Karate actually help me-a very small woman-against a much larger man?

I remember my poor SIL who is larger then me asking my hubby to hold her down so that she could show him a move that she had learned in her self defense class. Unfortunately he had no trouble keeping her down and she had a tremendous amount of trouble trying to resist him.

This is a tad bit off subject, so I apologize ahead of time.

 

[Stu]

I am serious in my following question and not being sarcastic. Would Karate actually help me-a very small woman-against a much larger man?

I remember my poor SIL who is larger then me asking my hubby to hold her down so that she could show him a move that she had learned in her self defense class. Unfortunately he had no trouble keeping her down and she had a tremendous amount of trouble trying to resist him.

This is a tad bit off subject, so I apologize ahead of time.

Yes it would help. While you wouldn’t want to go “head to head” with a large attacker there are things you can do to put quite hurt on someone no matter what the size. The body has many weak points that can be exploited. Karate not only exposes you to such techniques but it also improves your physical endurance and if you actively spar in class it can improve your self confidence if you have to fight someone. For instance, most of course know a kick to the groin can be effective. But one does not only have to kick to be effective. Just grabbing hold and squeezing like there is no tomorrow can also provide the desired effect. Works on male dogs too BTW. Reaching in to grab someone’s collarbone as it it were a handle on a suitcase I can attest hurts like (insert expletive here).

A bit of a disjointed response, but you get the picture.

 

[jmcrae]

I am serious in my following question and not being sarcastic. Would Karate actually help me-a very small woman-against a much larger man?

Only if he doesn’t know karate.

The best defense is to get away before he does anything to you. If someone is giving you the creeps, don’t hang around or “be nice” to him - just leave the area, or do something fairly agressive - yesterday I was being stalked by a group of young men who seemed hostile to me, so I just turned around and walked right back into them - I said, Oh excuse me I forgot something, and just elbowed my way through the crowd of them back to a more populated area, and got a good look at them while I was at it.

I don’t know if they would have done me any harm, but I didn’t see a need to wait around and find out.

 

[jmcrae]

The above remark was offered as a “tit for tat” or “absurd for absurd” and nothing more.

“Absurd?”

I don’t think so, really. Most men can’t even imagine ever being told, “You can’t dress like that because dressing like that will incite someone to so much rage that they will do something violent to you. And it’s natural and normal for someone to want to do that to you, so just be careful and dress the right way.”

I think if any man were ever told the kinds of things that women are told, the teller would be told to go fly a kite, and no one would consider it out of line for the man to defend his freedom to dress how ever he wishes.

Freedom is an inalienable right for men, but not for women - we punish criminals who attack men, but criminals who attack women “can’t help it” and have to be catered for at every waking (and even sleeping) moment, out of constant fear of what “they” will do - and somehow it’s the woman’s fault, for how she dresses.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes, this whole question really does strike at nerves, both for men and for women.

It does seem, and it is, manifestly unfair to promote, or coerce, women into having to do things which men do not have to do. Nobody seems to be focusing on MEN having to dress in a certain way. Nobody is promoting men ‘fitting in’ to avoid chances of being assaulted. And while men can be raped, they are very seldom raped by women, and certainly not because they ‘provoked’ the woman by wearing scanty attire. (Not that I believe that any rapist can legitimately defend himself with the ‘provocation’ excuse. )

Yet of course, nobody is saying that it is inherently ‘right’ for a woman to dress in really immodest attire, because it isn’t right, any more than it is ‘right’ for MEN to dress immodestly, as many do.

Yet over and above all this, the ORIGINAL question was ‘does a woman’s way of dressing affect the possibility of sexual assault.’

I think that the only possible answer for this is, “it MAY for a particular woman in a particular place involving a particular man.”
However, it MAY NOT for a particular woman in a particular place involving a particular man." Thus, the question in essence is MOOT.

The real question should be, “does society’s tacit acceptance of men somehow to rape, or its excuse of rape based on the woman’s dress, or the situation, affect the possibility of sexual assault?” To that question, the answer is yes.

It is frustrating for me as a woman to be told that, in order NOT to be molested or assaulted, that I “MUST” dress in a particular way in order to ‘minimize my chance’. . .yet to know that most often those women who are raped ARE NOT TARGETED FOR THEIR ATTIRE. Rather, they are targeted for vulnerability, for proximity, for expedience, for a whole HOST OF FACTORS which are as INDIVIDUAL as the individual rapist involved.

So while I totally agree that it would be most worthwhile from the standpoint of simple loving obedience to God that MEN AND WOMEN dress modestly AS A MATTER OF COURSE. . .

I must disagree that if apparent proposal of having “all woman” dress ‘modestly’ (and there again, there is no single consensus for modest dressing–does that mean dresses only–which might arouse men because they obviously present a woman AS a woman rather than the unisex pants–or does it mean pants which might arouse men because they might ‘present’ a woman’s body more ‘revealingly’ or make the women appear less ‘womanly’ and thus arouse men who would want to punish them for being less womanly, etc… .) .You see my point? There is ALWAYS going to be a difficulty because you CANNOT PROTECT YOURSELF FROM ALL RAPISTS BY THE WAY YOU DRESS.

 

[Stu]

Freedom is an inalienable right for men, but not for women - we punish criminals who attack men, but criminals who attack women “can’t help it” and have to be catered for at every waking (and even sleeping) moment, out of constant fear of what “they” will do - and somehow it’s the woman’s fault, for how she dresses.

I make no excuses for a criminal’s behavior. That rests on their soul alone. I do make recommendation on how one can avoid being victim.

FYI. I’m in the military. I’m told how to dress all the time. When I travel in foreign lands there are plenty of restrictions on what I can where in an effort the blend in. But then again, I would do that without being told. I like to take care of myself.

 

[Stu]

TE,

I agree with most with what you say. I don’t propose nor would want some dress code for woman based upon someone idea of decency. Mine is rather a statement that we can all take efforts to minimize our risk and given prevention isn’t always 100% we can have other provisions (self defense training, CCP) at hand.

Even I like to go out for a night on the town with my wife in a stunning evening dress.

 

[SeekerJen]

I am serious in my following question and not being sarcastic. Would Karate actually help me-a very small woman-against a much larger man?

I remember my poor SIL who is larger then me asking my hubby to hold her down so that she could show him a move that she had learned in her self defense class. Unfortunately he had no trouble keeping her down and she had a tremendous amount of trouble trying to resist him.

This is a tad bit off subject, so I apologize ahead of time.

I’m not too sure about the self-defense courses offered through community centers and the like. I’m sure they’re better than nothing, but I’d be worried they would give a false sense of security. However, I absolutely think that a serious training program in something like karate would be useful. Jujitsu or similar, even better. My husband studies jujitsu, which teaches you to use leverage and pressure points to gain an advantage over your opponent. He can easily throw his friend, who is nearly twice his size. And I’ve seen teenage girls in the dojo (class) do some pretty impressive moves against guys larger than them. In fact, if I wasn’t such a wuss I might go for it myself. I need to have hubby or his sensei (instructor) teach me some moves.

 

[Stu]

I’m not too sure about the self-defense courses offered through community centers and the like. I’m sure they’re better than nothing, but I’d be worried they would give a false sense of security. However, I absolutely think that a serious training program in something like karate would be useful. Jujitsu or similar, even better. My husband studies jujitsu, which teaches you to use leverage and pressure points to gain an advantage over your opponent. He can easily throw his friend, who is nearly twice his size. And I’ve seen teenage girls in the dojo (class) do some pretty impressive moves against guys larger than them. In fact, if I wasn’t such a wuss I might go for it myself. I need to have hubby or his sensei (instructor) teach me some moves.

Sound advice. There are many different disciplines and you can find one that suits you. I too would stray from the community center thing.

The hardest part though is starting.

 

[jmcrae]

FYI. I’m in the military. I’m told how to dress all the time. When I travel in foreign lands there are plenty of restrictions on what I can where in an effort the blend in. But then again, I would do that without being told. I like to take care of myself.

Yes, but I’m not in the military, and I’m not in a foreign land. This is my home - where I live, and I’m a civilian. Why should my own home, which is at peace, have to be treated as a war zone?

Why should I have to expect and be ready to be attacked on my own street, where I live? Why is it something the matter with me, if I’m not ready to blend in and defend myself like a military man, in my own home and on my own street?

 

[Stu]

Why should I have to expect and be ready to be attacked on my own street, where I live? Why is it something the matter with me, if I’m not ready to blend in and defend myself like a military man, in my own home and on my own street?

You shouldn’t have to expect it but thus is the nature of mankind. You can however take steps to mitigate possible risks and/or be prepared to handle attacks if they do arise. It’s your choice really.

As for me, I’ll teach my daughters to be prepared.

 

[kellie]

You shouldn’t have to expect it but thus is the nature of mankind. You can however take steps to mitigate possible risks and/or be prepared to handle attacks if they do arise. It’s your choice really.

As for me, I’ll teach my daughters to be prepared.

Why don’t we teach men that violence against women is wrong ???

Then women can wear whatever they want in their own street

And to add to that, why don’t we all just follow one simple rule that Jesus wants us to follow, and that is “love one another” ???

Maybe we need to preach the Word more to get through to people.

It will take time. 2000 years later and we still aren’t all following His Word.

 

[jmcrae]

You shouldn’t have to expect it but thus is the nature of mankind. You can however take steps to mitigate possible risks and/or be prepared to handle attacks if they do arise. It’s your choice really.

As for me, I’ll teach my daughters to be prepared.

Yes, I understand that part.

What I don’t understand is why you’re not angry that this has to be “normal” for your daughters to put up with, and why it’s okay that it’s your daughter’s fault if some mental case rapes her because of how she’s dressed.

After all, your sons (as long as they aren’t in a war zone) can carbonate every woman’s hormones for miles around with no fear, because women are expected to control themselves and not sexually molest men, or kill them for not wanting to having sex with them - society expects that of women - we see a man who is sexually attractive and dressed for action, apparently, but other than glancing at him in a flirting manner, we leave him alone. Anything otherwise is simply “not done” to the point that nobody would be “understanding” if a woman’s hormones overtook her to the point where she molested a sexy-looking man - she would be considered mentally incompetent for the rest of her life, and if not actually institutionalized, she would certainly be unemployable for the rest of her life - the consequences of a woman sexually molesting a man are just too great to even think of doing it.

But there are no similar social consequences for a male rapist - and for some reason we are just expected to put up with it being that way, and adapt to this situation, instead of saying, “hey, wait a minute, there is something seriously wrong with this picture,” and doing something to change it.

 

[Stu]

Why don’t we teach men that violence against women is wrong ???

Then women can wear whatever they want in their own street

And to add to that, why don’t we all just follow one simple rule that Jesus wants us to follow, and that is “love one another” ???

Maybe we need to preach the Word more to get through to people.

It will take time. 2000 years later and we still aren’t all following His Word.

I didn’t realize teaching men that violence of any kind is wrong and taking precautions against those who would victimize others were mutually exclusive.

Incidentally, I don’t think women nor men should necessarily wear what they want. I think modesty is the rule for all who would follow Christ

This is a Catholic forum isn’t it? We do understand Original Sin, the fall of man and such? People sin. Yes we try to teach them that it is wrong but we should still be prepared for those that choose of their own free will not to follow Christ’s word.

 

[Stu]

Yes, I understand that part.

What I don’t understand is why you’re not angry that this has to be “normal” for your daughters to put up with, and why it’s okay that it’s your daughter’s fault if some mental case rapes her because of how she’s dressed.

After all, your sons (as long as they aren’t in a war zone) can carbonate every woman’s hormones for miles around with no fear, because women are expected to control themselves and not sexually molest men, or kill them for not wanting to having sex with them - society expects that of women - we see a man who is sexually attractive and dressed for action, apparently, but other than glancing at him in a flirting manner, we leave him alone. Anything otherwise is simply “not done” to the point that nobody would be “understanding” if a woman’s hormones overtook her to the point where she molested a sexy-looking man - she would be considered mentally incompetent for the rest of her life, and if not actually institutionalized, she would certainly be unemployable for the rest of her life - the consequences of a woman sexually molesting a man are just too great to even think of doing it.

But there are no similar social consequences for a male rapist - and for some reason we are just expected to put up with it being that way, and adapt to this situation, instead of saying, “hey, wait a minute, there is something seriously wrong with this picture,” and doing something to change it.

Ma’am, I respectfully submit that you must be confusing me someone else. Your characterizations of my postion are way off base and do not even remotely present my point of view.

For instance, please cite one time where I have put the blame on the VICTIM of a rape. Thank you.

 

[kellie]

I didn’t realize teaching men that violence of any kind is wrong and taking precautions against those who would victimize others were mutually exclusive.

Society has made them mutually inclusive.

Stu:

Incidentally, I don’t think women nor men should necessarily wear what they want. I think modesty is the rule for all who would follow Christ

I am very immodest in my shower and bed, and I know Jesus can see me.
I believe in wearing what one wants, I don’t wear mini skirts because I like to hide my ugly cellulite

Stu:

This is a Catholic forum isn’t it? We do understand Original Sin, the fall of man and such? People sin. Yes we try to teach them that it is wrong but we should still be prepared for those that choose of their own free will not to follow Christ’s word.

Yes, and I think the preparation should be trying harder to instil in people at a young age the Word of God.