Does women way of dressing affect the possibility of sexual assault?

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this but recently, at the end of Eid a group of Muslim men in downtown Cairo were denied entry to a cinema because it was full and they went nuts and rampaged in the streets and accosted several Egyptian women wearing abayas.

This was reported in Egyptian newspapers and blogs so it was no Israeli propaganda against the Muslims.

The incident is reported and disseminated through youtube but in Arabic: youtube.com/watch?v=XAFtE9ozk_0

Details are given in this anti-Islamic blog:
sandmonkey.org/2006/10/30/the-eid-sexual-harassment-incident/

Excuse the language - sandmonkey is not politically correct or especially polite.

Following the exposure on Arabic Dream Channel, the leading Egyptian newspaper Al Masry Al youm did two columns on the incident.

Other reports of sexual harrassment in Cairo: forsoothsayer.blogspot.com/2006/10/mass-sexual-assault-in-downtown-cairo.html

Looks like those abayas did not protect the women from being harrassed.

 

[jmcrae]

Ma’am, I respectfully submit that you must be confusing me someone else.

You were saying that women and little girls need to be like soldiers in a battle field, dressing to blend in, and being ready to defend themselves, because “the enemy” cannot be expected to be any different than he is. Were you not?

 

[Stu]

You were saying that women and little girls need to be like soldiers in a battle field, dressing to blend in, and being ready to defend themselves, because “the enemy” cannot be expected to be any different than he is. Were you not?

Yeah…that is exactly what I said.

 

[Stu]

Yes, and I think the preparation should be trying harder to instil in people at a young age the Word of God.

In that we entirely agree and I am doing my part with my children. However, not everyone is on the “same page of the Bible” as you and I so to speak. Until then, I take precautions.

 

[jmcrae]

Yeah…that is exactly what I said.

Okay - and there’s nothing wrong with that? Nothing that you think needs changing?

 

[Stu]

Okay - and there’s nothing wrong with that? Nothing that you think needs changing?

The little smiley guy with his eyes in the air means sarcasm.

 

[Ella]

“Absurd?”

I don’t think so, really. Most men can’t even imagine ever being told, “You can’t dress like that because dressing like that will incite someone to so much rage that they will do something violent to you. And it’s natural and normal for someone to want to do that to you, so just be careful and dress the right way.”

I think if any man were ever told the kinds of things that women are told, the teller would be told to go fly a kite, and no one would consider it out of line for the man to defend his freedom to dress how ever he wishes.

Freedom is an inalienable right for men, but not for women - we punish criminals who attack men, but criminals who attack women “can’t help it” and have to be catered for at every waking (and even sleeping) moment, out of constant fear of what “they” will do - and somehow it’s the woman’s fault, for how she dresses.

Excellent post.

 

[fix]

CM,

I will freely admit I don’t have a study or such to back up my beliefs. I think it just common sense to not stick out when in public. Due to some of my jobs in the military, I have had somewhat extensive training in countering terrorists to include blending in so as not to stick out and bring attention to yourself. I just think those lessons are applicable on many different levels. Others are certainly free to take their own approach.

The notion that “studies” offer all the answers and can explain all human behavior in these cases is absurd. First, all studies have flaws and all studies cannot account for free will. I am not saying trends can’t be identified, but I see no proof these psychological tools are infallible or all encompasing.

What do you think about this?:

…“In the measure that a particular style of dress is consciously and deliberately provocative — whether the deliberate intent is on the part of the designer, or the wearer, or of both—this way of dressing must be recognized as a mild form of reverse rape by which a person arouses unsolicited sexual desire on another person who may not want to be aroused. Whenever this happens to men (who are more subject to this kind of arousal than women) it always causes some anger, whether recognized or not. This may explain some of the hostility and aggressive behavior that men are guilty of toward women.”

After reading Father Knight, I began to observe my own reactions. I noticed that I did feel uncomfortable when I saw a woman walk into a room provocatively dressed. I noticed, too, that when a woman was modestly dressed, I felt quite comfortable. I can’t say I felt anger over immodestly dressed women, but I did feel a certain concern for the woman, whom I feared would perhaps be the object of exploitation by men…

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=2626

I am not saying I agree or disagree with the quote, but I am wondering if it is wise to draw a disctinct and concrete line between the issue of unwanted attention and rape? From these posts it seems some want to make these hard and fast disctinctions as if there is never any correlation or cross over between the two?

 

[jmcrae]

I am not saying I agree or disagree with the quote, but I am wondering if it is wise to draw a disctinct and concrete line between the issue of unwanted attention and rape? From these posts it seems some want to make these hard and fast disctinctions as if there is never any correlation or cross over between the two?

The difference between unwanted attention and rape is that a normal man who gives unwanted attention to a woman is not thinking about rape; rather, he is thinking about seduction. He wants to get her to want to have sex with him, and he is seeking the pleasure of sex - and there is no pleasure in sex if the pleasure isn’t mutual.

A rapist isn’t seeking the pleasure of sex, and he is not thinking about getting the woman to want to be with him. He is more interested in seeing her in pain as a punishment for some real or imagined infraction of his rules surrounding how women should behave.

If he believes that women should not enter the company of men, then any woman who walks into a place where men are is fair game, as far as he is concerned - how she is dressed is of no concern to him. If he wants to punish her for not being feminine enough (by wearing drab clothes and little or no makeup) then he will do that; or he might decide that she needs to be punished for looking feminine - wearing a skirt and makeup with jewelry. Or something else may bother him about her appearance or her behaviour - rapists are crazy, and there is no predicting what will set them off.

 

[fix]

The difference between unwanted attention and rape is that a normal man who gives unwanted attention to a woman is not thinking about rape; rather, he is thinking about seduction. He wants to get her to want to have sex with him, and he is seeking the pleasure of sex - and there is no pleasure in sex if the pleasure isn’t mutual.

A rapist isn’t seeking the pleasure of sex, and he is not thinking about getting the woman to want to be with him. He is more interested in seeing her in pain as a punishment for some real or imagined infraction of his rules surrounding how women should behave.

If he believes that women should not enter the company of men, then any woman who walks into a place where men are is fair game, as far as he is concerned - how she is dressed is of no concern to him. If he wants to punish her for not being feminine enough (by wearing drab clothes and little or no makeup) then he will do that; or he might decide that she needs to be punished for looking feminine - wearing a skirt and makeup with jewelry. Or something else may bother him about her appearance or her behaviour - rapists are crazy, and there is no predicting what will set them off.

Is the motivation for murder always the same as well?

Are all sexual assaults always the result of wanting power and to hurt the victim exclusively? I ask because I genuinely want to know how you can prove that in every single case.

It is a very emotional topic and I am afraid it is almost impossible to dissent from the prevailing, political/psychological theory without being seen as insensitive.

 

[jmcrae]

Is the motivation for murder always the same as well?

The motivation for murder is always to murder someone - yes.

Are all sexual assaults always the result of wanting power and to hurt the victim exclusively? I ask because I genuinely want to know how you can prove that in every single case.

All rapes fall into the definition of “rape,” yes. If sexual assault is being used as a synonym for rape, then yes, the definition is the same.

It is a very emotional topic and I am afraid it is almost impossible to dissent from the prevailing, political/psychological theory without being seen as insensitive.

And again, I’m just trying to make the distinctions between unwanted sexual attention and rape, since it seems as though the two are often confused.

 

[Pug]

• and there is no pleasure in sex if the pleasure isn’t mutual.

A rapist isn’t seeking the pleasure of sex, and he is not thinking about getting the woman to want to be with him. He is more interested in seeing her in pain as a punishment for some real or imagined infraction of his rules surrounding how women should behave.

This makes me think of date rape, when they are starting to have sex, but then she changes her mind, but he continues. I’m not sure what a guy wants by continuing in that situation, or if it holds no pleasure for him. Maybe he’s just thinking that he was seconds away and he selfishly wants to finish or something. For some guys, though, it would be to punish her for being annoying.

I think some sexual things (like grabbing the woman on the behind) is not done for punishment. I’ve watched a male teacher systematically grab the behind of each girl as she leaves the classroom. I’m not sure what was in his head, but it wasn’t puishment. I’m not sure if that teacher has the same mind as a rapist or not. Perhaps there is some difference in a rapist and someone who does those sorts of things. I don’t understand or like either.

 

[jmcrae]

This makes me think of date rape, when they are starting to have sex, but then she changes her mind, but he continues. I’m not sure what a guy wants by continuing in that situation, or if it holds no pleasure for him. Maybe he’s just thinking that he was seconds away and he selfishly wants to finish or something. For some guys, though, it would be to punish her for being annoying.

This is the kind of unfortunate situation that I think gives the term “rape” a false definition. It’s a really bad situation, but it’s not rape - it’s a just a really bad date.

Bad dates are, in fact, avoidable, and we can get into that in another thread, but the short version is that “No” has to happen before the pants come off. Like, WAAAAY before. If a person isn’t sure whether she or he wants to have sex, then the answer has to be “No” right from the very beginning.

The partner who wants sex has to understand that “No” always means “No,” and the partner who doesn’t want to have sex has to make their “No” not sound in any way like a “maybe” or a “talk me into it.”

If he/she starts taking your clothes off, laugh, make a joke about it, give him/her a quick kiss on the cheek, “thanks for a lovely evening, but -” and rapidly exit stage left. Walk home, if necessary (or call a cab, or your Dad), but don’t let the bad date have any illusions or false hopes about what just happened.

I think some sexual things (like grabbing the woman on the behind) is not done for punishment. I’ve watched a male teacher systematically grab the behind of each girl as she leaves the classroom. I’m not sure what was in his head, but it wasn’t puishment. I’m not sure if that teacher has the same mind as a rapist or not.

No, that’s not rape. That’s unwanted sexual attention - probably harassment, and probably illegal, but it’s certainly not rape.

Perhaps there is some difference in a rapist and someone who does those sorts of things. I don’t understand or like either.

Neither do I, but yes, there is a huge difference.

 

[Pug]

This is the kind of unfortunate situation that I think gives the term “rape” a false definition. It’s a really bad situation, but it’s not rape - it’s a just a really bad date.

Is “date rape” included in the regular rape statistics, or is it separated out? I ask because I vaguely remember being told it is the most common kind, perhaps over two-thirds of them or three-quarters?

Or is what I described not what they mean by date rape and they mean something else?

 

[jmcrae]

Is “date rape” included in the regular rape statistics, or is it separated out? I ask because I vaguely remember being told it is the most common kind, perhaps over two-thirds of them or three-quarters?

Or is what I described not what they mean by date rape and they mean something else?

Date rape (as I understand it) is when the man forces himself on the woman without giving her any chance to say “No” (the same as a stranger rape, except that it’s in the context of a supposed date), and when the rapist takes a woman out on the pretext of a date and then uses a drug or a weapon to knock the woman unconscious and then rapes her unconscious or dead body.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Date rape is still rape.

Ok, suppose the woman and man are cuddling. Things start to get hot and heavy. The woman (or the man) is being TEMPTED. . .and then, good sense, takes over. I don’t care if they’re both buck naked by that time. . .the minute that somebody says, “Wait, I don’t want this after all”. . .it STOPS. If it doesn’t, it is RAPE.

No means No. And you know, if a person changes her (OR his) mind, then it’s not right to say, “Well, too bad, you said YES first so we’re going to keep right on going.”

Would you say that about any OTHER situation? How about somebody taking a drink, then 2, then 3. . .and then stopping. Would you INSIST that they take a 4th drink because they’d been saying YES to the first three?

Or how about stealing? You agree to take something from a store, you may even have started out the door–and then you think better of it. Do you have to keep on going because you’d already STARTED to steal??

 

[jmcrae]

Date rape is still rape.

Ok, suppose the woman and man are cuddling. Things start to get hot and heavy. The woman (or the man) is being TEMPTED. . .and then, good sense, takes over. I don’t care if they’re both buck naked by that time. . .the minute that somebody says, “Wait, I don’t want this after all”. . .it STOPS. If it doesn’t, it is RAPE.

Yes, I agree that it should stop if one person says “no” at any point along the way - but would you not agree that the person who has to take the cold shower is at least somewhat justified in calling his/her partner a few unkind names? Because this is a really, really unfair situation to have happen, and this particular situation is the easiest of them all to prevent.

Maybe it happens by accident in some cases, but in the majority of cases, it is very preventable, by knowing that you don’t want to have sex (you are too young, you are not married to him, you are married to him but just not in the mood, it’s the wrong time of the month, whatever) and communicating that information very clearly, well before the heat comes on.

Also (on that note) your date should know your attitude toward sex outside of marriage, and what your limits are, and you should know his, before you start “going steady” or whatever they call it these days.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me. . .

You know, men aren’t the only sufferers! Like I said, sometimes people make the wrong choices, though. Isn’t it better to STOP once you realize that you’re wrong, even if you might ‘suffer’ a bit?

After all, fornication IS a sin. Making the choice NOT to commit the sin is worth a ‘cold shower’ because even one of the partners doesn’t feel it’s sinful, or doesn’t CARE, it is STILL a sin. So the partner stopping is not only keeping herself from sin, she is keeping her partner from sin.

It would be ideal if people would exercise care and caution as you note. But they don’t. People don’t eat properly, people don’t exercise, people get wrong ideas, people get wrong teachings, and sometimes people get tempted and give in–for a time. I totally agree that people SHOULD do the right thing from the START. . .but if they don’t for some reason, at LEAST they should do the right thing the minute that they realize that they should.

 

[jmcrae]

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me. . .

You know, men aren’t the only sufferers!

Oh, yes, I certainly know that!! (Married woman, here.)

Like I said, sometimes people make the wrong choices, though. Isn’t it better to STOP once you realize that you’re wrong, even if you might ‘suffer’ a bit?

After all, fornication IS a sin. Making the choice NOT to commit the sin is worth a ‘cold shower’ because even one of the partners doesn’t feel it’s sinful, or doesn’t CARE, it is STILL a sin. So the partner stopping is not only keeping herself from sin, she is keeping her partner from sin.

This is assuming that they aren’t married. But if they aren’t married, then they should know ahead of time that they don’t want to have sex - this seems to me to be the clearest situation of them all.

It would be ideal if people would exercise care and caution as you note. But they don’t. People don’t eat properly, people don’t exercise, people get wrong ideas, people get wrong teachings, and sometimes people get tempted and give in–for a time. I totally agree that people SHOULD do the right thing from the START. . .but if they don’t for some reason, at LEAST they should do the right thing the minute that they realize that they should.

Parents need to teach their kids - both boys and girls - how to communicate with their dates on this issue, because you’re right - people do get themselves into these situations, usually due to conflicting expectations - one of them thought they were just cuddling, and the other one thought they were getting ready to have sex - what a mess! But hopefully they learn from it and don’t make the same mistake next time.

But unlike a rape situation, this kind of situation is easily prevented with good communication.

 

[deb1]

Instead of focusing on dress, when we really can’t say what type of clothing attracts each rapist, why don’t we focus on behavior that young women can avoid. Certain behaviors do seem to increase one’s chance of rape. That doesn’t mean that rape is ever excusable or that the victim is ever at fault.

As a young woman, I would have loved to have known what I could have done to decrease my chances of being date raped.

I grew up with a single mother who dated often. Her whole focus was to get a man-not necessarily to keep one. So, I was exposed to some very poor behavior on her part.

When I started dating I had no idea what the boundaries should be. I felt lost. There was no longer the social mores that at one time protected young women.

I was told that I should be able to do everything a guy does and that he should still respect me. That is the way it should be in life, but that isn’t the way life actually works.

So, I had no idea that drinking alcohol with a date might be a bad idea, nor did I know that being alone with a guy in his house was not safe. I often went out to coffee alone with a guy that I had met at a bar. The first night that I met my hubby, I went to his barracks and sat on his bed in his empty room, just he and I.

Common sense is not always as common as people believe it is. Especially if you don’t know the rules and you didn’t have good parental role models.

I was very lucky. I never had a man try and force me to do anything sexually. Somehow all the men that I met were at least outwardly respectful, whatever they might have thought internally.

Sadly, I seem to have indulged in very dangerous behavior at one point in my life and was oblivious to the fact that I might have been endangering myself.