Does women way of dressing affect the possibility of sexual assault?

[Pug]

But if they aren’t married, then they should know ahead of time that they don’t want to have sex - this seems to me to be the clearest situation of them all.

I think with older people it shouldn’t be too hard. But I always think of what it is like for the young person (say 15) who has been raised with no moral compass. For someone like that who also has been raised to defer to others or to go along with the preferences of others so long as the preference isn’t outright evil, it gets so hard. Sure they don’t want to be fondled or to have sex, but they can’t raise an effective objection. So they say no, but the person fondles them anyway. What can they do?

I know, they can do things, but they don’t really see that, I think. They don’t have the training or something. They just accept that life is such that guys will fondle you even if you say no.

You are lucky, deb1. I’m so glad it came out okay for you.

 

[deb1]

I.

You are lucky, deb1. I’m so glad it came out okay for you.

The older I get the more lucky that I realize that I was. Thank you.

 

[jmcrae]

I think with older people it shouldn’t be too hard. But I always think of what it is like for the young person (say 15) who has been raised with no moral compass. For someone like that who also has been raised to defer to others or to go along with the preferences of others so long as the preference isn’t outright evil, it gets so hard. Sure they don’t want to be fondled or to have sex, but they can’t raise an effective objection. So they say no, but the person fondles them anyway. What can they do?

Breaking out in tears would be an effective strategy, I think, (it worked for me on at least one similar occasion) because the boy really does not intend any harm, in this situation. The boy is just as immature as she is - he wants to try having sex, and she seems compliant, to him. But it’s not in his head to want to hurt her, and if she makes it clear that she really doesn’t want this, he will be all over himself apologizing to her, and feeling really bad about the whole thing.

But 15 year olds should not be dating - that’s just crazy. They’re still just kids - they need to be hanging out in groups and doing stuff as a bunch - not pairing off - not so young.

Parents also need to be on the ball, and tell their kids how to say no, and how to deflect these bad dating situations.

But these situations should not ever be confused with rape or sexual assault. It just muddies the waters when lust and other normal sexual feelings are confused with the angry insanity that initiates an actual rape.

 

[rayne89]

Yes, I agree that it should stop if one person says “no” at any point along the way - but would you not agree that the person who has to take the cold shower is at least somewhat justified in calling his/her partner a few unkind names?

NO. If a person feels justified in calling the person that he/she wanted to have sex with unkind names because his/her partner backed out of having sex that person isn’t anywhere near ready to be having sex in the first place. You were about to share the most intimate experience two people can have and because one person backs out the other has the right to be nasty about it? Akk!

 

[fix]

The motivation for murder is always to murder someone - yes.

The motivation to murder has many causes. Does an angry mortorist who kills another motorist murder for the same reasons as a man who is greedy murders his wife to gain her inheritence? Both murder, but both do so for separate reasons.

All rapes fall into the definition of “rape,” yes. If sexual assault is being used as a synonym for rape, then yes, the definition is the same.

Again, every single rape is exclusively about power over the victim and to cause the victim pain? There are never any other causes or motivating factors?

And again, I’m just trying to make the distinctions between unwanted sexual attention and rape, since it seems as though the two are often confused.

Of course, they are separate actions, but does that mean they are never related?

I read this today:

…One of the casualties of the new dogma of rape has been research. It is no longer ‘sexually correct’ to conduct studies on the causes of rape, because – as any right thinking person knows – there is only one cause: patriarchy. Decades ago, during the heyday of liberal feminism and sexual curiosity, the approach to research was more sophisticated.

In his book from the '70s, Men who Rape: The Psychology of the Offender, A. Nicholas Groth offers a theory that sounds almost jarring to today’s ears:
“One of the most basic observations one can make regarding men who rape is that not all such offenders are alike.” p.12 Plenum Press, N.Y., 1979

Such studies are no longer in fashion. It is no longer proper to suggest that there can be as many motives for rape as there are for murder and other violent crimes. People murder for money, for love, out of jealousy or patriotism …the rationalizations go on and on. Rape is every bit as complex. Men rape because of sexual hunger, from a need to prove themselves, from hatred of women, or a desire for revenge, as a political statement, or from peer pressure (as in gang rapes). Men rape from a constellation of complicated motives, which become further blurred when you introduce drunkenness or drug use.

wendymcelroy.com/rape.htm

I no nothing about the author or her views on how dressing may or may not affect rape. My point is are we being fair and thorough if we limit the motivation of rape simply to power without admitting other motivations are possible?

 

[Pug]

But 15 year olds should not be dating - that’s just crazy. They’re still just kids - they need to be hanging out in groups and doing stuff as a bunch - not pairing off - not so young.

Parents also need to be on the ball, and tell their kids how to say no, and how to deflect these bad dating situations.

But these situations should not ever be confused with rape or sexual assault. It just muddies the waters when lust and other normal sexual feelings are confused with the angry insanity that initiates an actual rape.

I agree about dating young in our society, but it is the reality. That’s just it - parents are not on the ball. At least mine weren’t. Those types of situations can be traumatic. Perhaps that is why I bring them up.

Are you sure you have not defined rape to be something that does not involve lust or other sexual feelings? I understood rape to be forcible intercourse. It is not defined with regard to the affect or feelings of the perpetrator, is it? People do such odd things sexually. It seems difficult to know that it is not tied in for some people.

 

[jmcrae]

Part of the reason that real rapists aren’t thrown in jail and the keys tossed out is because the word “rape” is so often used to describe a bad date.

So, when a woman reports a rape, the person at the other end of the line at 911 is thinking, “Oh, she’s having a bad date, I’ll send someone to check on her when I feel like it” instead of thinking, “Oh, she is being mutilated and her life threatened, I’d better send a squad car and an ambulance.”

Because the word “rape” is used to describe a bad date, this is why people get confused and think that how the victim was dressed has something to do with it. Because to avoid a bad date, obviously you don’t dress as though you are looking for sex, and there are lots of very sensible ways to avoid having a bad date. Not saying that a bad date is the girl’s fault, but there are things she can do to minimize the chances of ending up in that situation.

But with an actual rape, no amount of how you dress and no amount of how you behave has anything to do with it.

Again, every single rape is exclusively about power over the victim and to cause the victim pain? There are never any other causes or motivating factors?

That’s what “rape” is.

If there is a different motivation, then they will commit a different crime that has a different result.

For example, if the perpetrator’s goal is to steal my wallet, then he will do whatever one does when stealing wallets - most likely, he will not rape me, but instead he will probably hold a weapon in my face and demand that I hand over my wallet, or else take it in secret while my attention is diverted, or some such thing.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Ok, just what is a “bad date” then?

If you’re defining as a “bad date” a case of two people, both initially preparing for sex, and then before the act, one changing his/her mind, and saying no, and then the other one getting angry, and continuing through the sexual act despite the other person’s saying ‘no’–that is rape.

If you’re defining as a “bad date” a case of two people, mutually having sex, and afterward one person feels that he or she was pressured into it, though that person did not in actual fact say no, or attempt to leave. . .that really isn’t what I call a 'bad date". It’s what I call bad judgment. And very few women would, in that situation, “cry rape” (although apparently a lot of men think that they do.) I won’t say it never happens, because obviously there have been proven cases where it has. . .but it rarely happens, mostly because in this sex-happy climate, unless the girl is somehow DEMONSTRABLY shown to be not capable of consent mentally, physically, or emotionally, most people, especially in court, are going to conclude that this wasn’t rape; after all, there is no reason to deny having the SEX because, hey, society doesn’t have any real punishment for the woman, right? Nobody is going to look down on her for DOING it, and a lot of people are going to look down on her if she goes to court and says rape. And if she’s pregnant; nobody is going to BLAME her, there are all sorts of programs, there are paternity tests after all and hey, if it’s a real hassle, adoption or abortion are right there, with NOBODY to look down on whatever SHE ‘chooses’ to do.

Where we have problems are in the very gray areas. . .areas where there are psychological factors (there are women, and men too, who have psychological problems or issues which can make them not really capable of consent in a situation even if they do not ‘say’ anything or withdraw, even though you or I, for example, COULD.) Areas where there are culture problems. Areas where people are physically impaired (yes, this means situations where people are drunk and/or stoned). While the technical or legal definition of rape may not apply, or may only partially apply, in cases like these, the actual emotions, feelings, and other trauma sequelae etc. can be felt here.

I feel (I’m a woman) that, on the whole, the MAJORITY of the time a woman claims rape, she does so on legitimate grounds, and that even IF she was wearing a G-string, had too much to drink, was just as interested in sex as the guy, no matter what, if she does NOT AGREE to sex, it is RAPE. It comes down to consent. No consent = Rape.

 

[fix]

That’s what “rape” is.

If there is a different motivation, then they will commit a different crime that has a different result.

That is the common thing we are told to believe. That is what some here are contesting. In the last link I provided the author mentions other factors that are not politically correct to discuss. Things like hatred of women, perverted sexual desire, peer pressure, ect. All very bad and none ever excuse such a perverted act.

Why does any of it matter? Because some of these causes may be linked to other factors that should be discussed and possibly avoided. If the mantra is simply rape is always about power that leaves very little room to understand why certain behavior and dressing styles may not be in one’s best interest.

For example, if the perpetrator’s goal is to steal my wallet, then he will do whatever one does when stealing wallets - most likely, he will not rape me, but instead he will probably hold a weapon in my face and demand that I hand over my wallet, or else take it in secret while my attention is diverted, or some such thing.

Do you think people only steal wallets for one reason?

 

[fix]

O

If you’re defining as a “bad date” a case of two people, both initially preparing for sex, and then before the act, one changing his/her mind, and saying no, and then the other one getting angry, and continuing through the sexual act despite the other person’s saying ‘no’–that is rape.

Exactly, and is such a case always only about power?

If you’re defining as a “bad date” a case of two people, mutually having sex, and afterward one person feels that he or she was pressured into it, though that person did not in actual fact say no, or attempt to leave. . .that really isn’t what I call a 'bad date". It’s what I call bad judgment. And very few women would, in that situation, “cry rape” (although apparently a lot of men think that they do.)

Bad judgment on the part of both parties.

I won’t say it never happens, because obviously there have been proven cases where it has. . .but it rarely happens, mostly because in this sex-happy climate, unless the girl is somehow DEMONSTRABLY shown to be not capable of consent mentally, physically, or emotionally, most people, especially in court, are going to conclude that this wasn’t rape; after all, there is no reason to deny having the SEX because, hey, society doesn’t have any real punishment for the woman, right? Nobody is going to look down on her for DOING it, and a lot of people are going to look down on her if she goes to court and says rape. And if she’s pregnant; nobody is going to BLAME her, there are all sorts of programs, there are paternity tests after all and hey, if it’s a real hassle, adoption or abortion are right there, with NOBODY to look down on whatever SHE ‘chooses’ to do.

You illustrate why this is such a difficult topic.

Where we have problems are in the very gray areas. . .areas where there are psychological factors (there are women, and men too, who have psychological problems or issues which can make them not really capable of consent in a situation even if they do not ‘say’ anything or withdraw, even though you or I, for example, COULD.) Areas where there are culture problems. Areas where people are physically impaired (yes, this means situations where people are drunk and/or stoned). While the technical or legal definition of rape may not apply, or may only partially apply, in cases like these, the actual emotions, feelings, and other trauma sequelae etc. can be felt here.

I feel (I’m a woman) that, on the whole, the MAJORITY of the time a woman claims rape, she does so on legitimate grounds, and that even IF she was wearing a G-string, had too much to drink, was just as interested in sex as the guy, no matter what, if she does NOT AGREE to sex, it is RAPE. It comes down to consent. No consent = Rape.

I agree. My point is in all these variables you bring up can we simply say it is exclusively an issue about power?

 

[staceybrewer]

Meedo, to answer your last question quickly; the answer would be ‘no’. . .a qualified ‘no’.

As has been set forth by many (thanks, jrabs!), what women wear has NO effect in either attracting or deterring rape, despite media reports or the wails of caught rapists. Having women dress ‘more modestly’ would NOT result in ‘fewer rapes’ because as I said rape is about POWER, not about sexual lust or sexual responsiveness.

Having men take responsibility for their refusal to control their power lust and be educated enough to realize that women aren’t packages for their consumption would result in fewer rapes.

I think that even if a woman dressed moderately that any rape or sexual assault is caused by the actions of the person doing it. I think that any rape or sexual assault is wrong but the same also applies to women as well as men. If a woman sees a man in tight jeans or a middriff baring Tshirt and she also forces herself upon a man then it is just as wrong as a man raping or sexually assaulting a woman. However we live in a society that teaches that most women do not have the physical strength or power to rape or sexually assault a man so it is always assumed that the majority of victims of rape or sexual assault are almost always women. Women have the right to dress however they want to but it is up everyone to have control over their lustful urges. Sure if a woman who is dressed inappropriately does make a man have lustful thoughts but not to the point of not controlling those thoughts either. Im sure that the same can be applied to women as well. I also think that the majority of men would not committ such a henious crime as rape or sexual assault due to the part of what their consicience would tell them and plus how would they feel if they where violated like this? Probably not good at all.

 

[JHow]

I think even in a world where we all (men and women) wore identical track suits and flip flops (which I imagine to be the final solution to airport security), we would stlil have sexual assaults. I voted "no’ to the poll.

 

[phoenixrrt62]

No.
It’s an issue of control…

 

[Califman831]

I think that the conduct of the rape victim plays a factor in the crime, but not to the degree of the predator. If she dresses like a hooker and engages in promiscuous behavior why is she surprised to be treated like what she aims to be. Granted we could take the politically correct viewpoint that rape is solely about power and the victim cannot be blamed but what studies have been done to prove or disprove that idea? Whatever happened to dressing with modesty?

 

[Izdaari]

If they dress in a way that hinders them from fighting back, or from concealing a weapon, then yes, it may contribute. But I’m guessing that’s not quite what the OP meant.

Didn’t vote: none of the answers accurately represent my view.

 

[HAnne]

Speaking as a rape victim I can tell you what I wore or how I acted had NOTHING to do with it. PERIOD.

I was assaulted by two different people. The first time I was wearing sweatpants and a sweatshirt and reading in my bed. The second assault occurred while I was out on a date. I was wearing a turtleneck with a sweater over it and a long skirt.

Clothes have NOTHING to do with rape.

 

[jmcrae]

I think that the conduct of the rape victim plays a factor in the crime, but not to the degree of the predator. If she dresses like a hooker and engages in promiscuous behavior why is she surprised to be treated like what she aims to be.

Rape has little or nothing to do with sexual attraction, or promiscuity. Chaste women - even elderly nuns - can be victims of rape.

Rape prevention is achieved through behaviour much more than through dress - a woman who appears strong, self-willed, and willing to defend herself is probably less likely to be raped by a stranger than someone who appears lost or defenseless.

A woman can still be attacked by people she thought were her friends, though, no matter what she does. There isn’t any kind of magic formula - rapists don’t think like normal people, so it’s impossible to predict their behaviour.

 

[benidict]

hi,

I just read the thread about the Australian Imam . I think his way of expressing his idea was very crude. But i wonder if he is wrong in principle.

I personally believe that women way of dress can considerably affect the possibilities of sexual assault.

Do you ?

Please lets keep this thread civil.

thanks

meedo

hi meedo. i would have to say no. sexual assault, is about power and control over a victim. it has nothing to do with how a woman (or man) is dressed, or even how pretty or not so pretty they are, or age. people who commit this crime, will pick those they think they can overcome and victimize. most of us guys are not raving beast that foam at the mouth every time we see a mini skirt. there are even Muslim women who wear the full veil, who have fallen victim to such predators. Peace

 

[ethereality]

The 57 ‘no’ votes got a laugh out of me. Think of the cartoons about leaving a pie sitting out on the window sill, in a certain sense asking to be taken.

It’s clearly the same principle. Modesty is one method of protection against those looking to take. Anyone who wishes to disagree is simply in denial, perhaps concerning current fashion…