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ConstantineTG
Guest
God is everywhere, we should see Him in everything
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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
No one is putting the Latin Mass off. I love it. I love Gregorian. I PRAY IN LATIN. When driving, I sometimes sing the Credo in Latin and the Gloria and I get moved. I love the Latin Liturgy. I love the Orthodox Liturgy. I would love to spend Easter in Moscow. I amd continuously listening to Orthodox Songs, specially Rachmaninof (plese hear Ave Maria).
BUTā¦
Compare one mass to another is missing the point. You just cannot do it. Unless the priest is completely crazy or is heretic or dismissed by the Bishop (and still is mass!!!). What I cannot accept are some inuendoes about Vatican II, which cannot be accepted and the theory that the mass in Latin is ābetterā than the mass in English. Or that we receive more grace, or that āmake you feel betterā or that you feel closer to God in the mass in Latin.
Lookā¦
We have to go into the future. There was a big mess after the council Vatican II. People made many mistakes. Now is the time for everybody make our liturgy better. There is a lack of solemnity! I agree: letās give ideas to our Priest. The music is poorer than the Latin which had 2000 years of tradition: I agree! Letās make a festival every year of Faith Music! The homilies are poor: I donāt know! Letās give to our parish priest a list of topics that you would like be treated.
I would love to make a site (I have web creation skills) of homilies around the USA that could be kept. Butā¦I am not Native English Speker, still I keep the dreamā¦maybeā¦ one day.ā
Go to the Latin Mass as many times as you want (to enjoy it), but the USA Catholic Church needs you in the English mass (to give, to help, to make it better and better looking, for the essential is there).
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TrueLight
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Hello brother,
I like most of what you had to say, but I hate, hate, hate when you say we have to go into the future, not the past, as youāve said in more than one thread.
As a lot of people have noticed including our Pope, there were some things we did right in the past and we lost some of that.
I know you and others have said the Latin mass was not so wonderful in the past as people like to say, which may be true.
I believe the craziness that went on in the spirit of VII is a chastisement and a way of pruning and fine-tuning the Church.
Those who took the Latin mass for granted have developed a new love, enthusiasm and reverence.
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ProVobis
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You donāt have to learn Latin as much in the EF as the vernacular in the OF and if itās not your vernacular and you donāt have artificial amplification (microphones, loud speakers) you could be in trouble. The EF uses a lot more body language (low tones, signs of cross, genuflections, bowing, etc) which is probably more universal than any spoken language. Just saying. It enabled people to follow the Mass for over 1600 years and Iāll bet most of them didnāt speak Latin. (Which is a good thing actually, IMO, as the growing number of illiterates speaking a particular language tend to corrupt it as well. Fewer and fewer Anglophone grammarians (not to mention more texters
) will doom the English language as we know it within 100 years.)
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Denise1957
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I think that you raise some really good points here. I, too, think that if one is not careful, they could become anti-OF, if they are attached to the EF.
I attend both EF and OF, but what has helped me to not be upset by certain things in the OF (such as female altar servers), is to ask Our Lord and Our Lady to help me to not get upset. Pray and ask for help with this. Depend on prayer. And do pray for those preists and laity who bother you. By praying for others with whom we have a problem, we become more sympathetic to them (at least thatās been the case for me).
Iām currently taking a break from the EF parish that I have attended. The parishioners are not very friendly. I think it comes from having had to keep their faith āin the trenchesā for so long. Itās unfortunate, because they are not welcoming to new people, so I donāt expect they will grow in numbers in our diocese.
I attended a Dominican rite Requiem Mass (in Latin) on Wednesday. I think it was the first one celebrated at our Dominican parish here in many decades. I had sympathy for the priest, in that he stumbled over parts of the liturgy that he was reading, but he was a trooper! Also, the place was packed. I donāt know where all these people came from, but many of them knew the responses in Latin. It was an amazingly beautiful Mass, especially the prayers over the catafalque (sp?).
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TimothyH
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No matter what the labelā¦ Traditionalist, Liberal, Conservative, NO, EF, whatever. I think the point missed here, and what is really over the top, is how some Catholics seem to believe that Catholcism in particular, and Christianity and love of Jesus in general, starts and stops at the Mass. Some of these hear the phrase āThe Eucharist is the source and summit of our faithā and perhaps act as if that Mass is the last end of Christianity.
Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift. (Matthew 5:23-24)
To a Jew at the time of Jesus, true worship of God was sacrifice, and sacrifice could only be offered at the temple in Jerusalem. Jesusā own words in the sermon on the mount are a radical statement to those who heard it, that being reconciled with your brother was more important to God than temple worship. And I think this statement, read in its proper context and it is as radical to some Catholics today as it was to the Jews at the time of Jesus. In this one statement, and the rest of the sermon on the mount which expounds on it, Jesus tells us whatās most important to God.
We owe God worship. We owe God the most glorius and reverent worship we can afford. And even that wonāt begin to approach the worship wihch God deserves. One of the reasons why God gave us the Mass is so that we could offer God the Son to God the Father. Offering God to himself is the only way we could ever begin to worship God in the way in which he deserves.
But according to Jesus Christ, God himself, the intention of our heart when we offer worship, contrition, humility, and how we treat other human beings, asking forgiveness from them if we have wronged them, comes first. Without these, our worship is of little value to God. King David understood this.
For you do not desire sacrifice or I would give it;
a burnt offering you would not accept.
My sacrifice, O God, is a contrite spirit;
a contrite, humbled heart, O God, you will not scorn.
Then you will desire the sacrifices of the just,
burnt offering and whole offerings;
then they will offer up young bulls on your altar
(Psalm 51:18-19,21)
The word Mass, Ite, Missa Est in Latin at the end of the Mass, means to be sent forth. Mass is just the beginning. How we treat other human beings during the other 167 hours of the week is more important to God. The way in which we treat other human beings is the way in which Jesus whether we love him or not. How the Mass is conducted, or what Mass we go to, is not an indication of how much we love Jesus. The Mass is just the beginning.
Iām not dismissing the problems or dismissing anyoneās point of view or the way anyone feels. Iām making a point here - the same radical point which Jesus made to the Jews who worshipped at the temple - that the way in which some wring their hands over the Mass, focus on the Mass, are all consumed by the Mass, to the exclusion of all else (as it appears to me, I cannot read hearts, please forgive me if I am wrong), seems to me at least, to be what is over the top.
I thought it was sublime Brother, when you said in another thread, ā$900 for a bell! Do you know how many diapers you could buy with that much money?ā And in another place, as you corrected a dear sister, you said that the Mass is not what makes people holy, and the mass Mass is not what forms saints. I would add that the Mass is not how Jesus knows we love him.
The Mass is our minimum requirement. If all we do is the Mass, focus on the Mass, argue over the Mass, and as some do, obsess over the Mass, we are unprofitable servants, who bury our masters coin in the ground.
I stay out of the arguments about the Mass and threads about liturgical abuses for this reason. Mass is awsome. I altar serve because that is where God has drawn my heart, and that is one of the ways in which I choose to serve the Body of Christ. No one can claim that I donāt love the Mass. And the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith. No one on earth has as much faith as one who believes that a piece of bread can become the Second Person of the Trinity through which the universe is created. But the Mass is not the Eucharist, and it must not be confused with showing Jesus how much we love him by how we treat each other 24x7 outside of Mass.
It must be kept in its proper perspective. Be reconciled to your brother first, then go offer your gift. To focus on the Mass exclusively, to the point where one is brought to anger or hatred of one form over the other, seems to me to be what is over the top. A person who is in that state has clearly misunderstood Christās own teaching about what is most important to him and how he knows we love him.
-Tim-
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AntiqueCatholic
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Personally, Iām glad I can attend a Mass which is quiet and impersonal. By that I mean, I donāt have a priest performing in front of me or have to look at lay people giving readings. Quietness begets quiet and people tend not to chat in church. Indeed, they seem to go out of their way to leave other worshippers alone. I appreciate that.
If I want, I can read the magnificent text of the Mass or just say my own prayers. The priest is doing the Work at the altar, backed up by vested men and young lads. If thereās chant with an organ, itās a very fine thing.
And yet there seems to be a substantial number of people in the Church who do not want you to have that and will make any number of weak arguments to justify the changes, including partially quoting a suspect passage by St. Cyril Of Jerusalem to justify the scandal that is Communion In The Hand.
Now the wrecking is done, the remnant that are keen on this Mass and understand what it means have to scratch around to get one going. 40 years of Catholicism-Lite in schools has left a generation, including priests, without a clue as to the essentials of their religion and what treasure is at its heart, due to modernist, distracting waffle from near-heretic academics.
If I werenāt a Catholic it would be fascinating to see major religion wreck itself, of its own free will, without any external pressure.
If I want, I can read the magnificent text of the Mass or just say my own prayers. The priest is doing the Work at the altar, backed up by vested men and young lads. If thereās chant with an organ, itās a very fine thing.
And yet there seems to be a substantial number of people in the Church who do not want you to have that and will make any number of weak arguments to justify the changes, including partially quoting a suspect passage by St. Cyril Of Jerusalem to justify the scandal that is Communion In The Hand.
Now the wrecking is done, the remnant that are keen on this Mass and understand what it means have to scratch around to get one going. 40 years of Catholicism-Lite in schools has left a generation, including priests, without a clue as to the essentials of their religion and what treasure is at its heart, due to modernist, distracting waffle from near-heretic academics.
If I werenāt a Catholic it would be fascinating to see major religion wreck itself, of its own free will, without any external pressure.
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Denise1957
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I get the feeling that you think that the Church was wrong to have kept the Latin Mass for so long, until the 1960ās.
Yes, the EF parishes do spend more money on things of beauty, but do you think that it was wrong for the Church to do this before the OF was instituted? After all, Catholics are not Puritans, who believe in a minimalist approach to worship.
Iām not sure itās true to say that the Mass is not the Eucharist. Maybe Iām wrong, but the Mass is about the Sacrifice of Calvary, isnāt it?
I do agree, though, that there are some who are devoted to the EF who do believe that it is the Mass that mainly leads to salvation. There are extreme points of view on both sides. But our Pope has allowed for those who are attached to the EF. He has no problem with Catholics who want to attend the EF, provided that they do not see the OF as invalid or illicit.
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Warrenton
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Thank you for such a thoughtful and kind post!
I do not want any Catholic to feel marginalized in church. That does not mean that I, personally, may agree with everything others prefer. However, unless it is outright heretical, I support acceptantance of many styles in worship.
For example, while it is very strange to my way of thinking, I support providing a place for those who speak in tongues, or those who want to use guitars, drums, and popular tunes in āfolk masses.ā
I also do not spend much time looking for reasons why the OF may not be valid, or licit, or for other defects in its form compared with other forms. I prefer to focus on learning the reasons why the EF came to be the way it did. Sometimes, in this process, I pick up some information that is more ācriticalā of the OF, but I do not believe that focus is helpful or effective, at least not now.
As I read the documents of Vatican 2, and the implementing documents regarding the liturgy and other rituals of the Church, it seems that the basic plan was: āDo x, y. and z.ā
The form, by and large, did not suppress much of anything. In other words, it did not say āYou are forbidden to do A, B and C.ā
As a matter of interpretation, this form must have meaning. If the speed limit sign says ā60 mphā it does not forbid doing 55, or 50.
The comparison of the forms of the mass, and other rituals, is only helpful for the traditionalist if the challenge is made that a different form ought to replace the preceding form because of a deficiency in the old way. There is no point in gratuitous attacks on the OF.
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Warrenton
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Another great post, courtesy of the our online Franciscan friend and guide!
Speaking as a (self styled) traditionalist, this is the best time to be traditionalist in living memory.
I already posted here about the growth rate- itās great.
A quick glance on You Tube and one sees how many great scholas are out there. The music is probably better now than at any time after the French Revolution.
The Pope is actually giving us the high five.
Orthodox are sitting down at the table, and this helps us rediscover the ārootsā of our traditional rites and rituals, which all go back to the pre-schism days.
The only big cloud is the SSPX thing, and no one can say that it is less promising than ay any time since the late 60s. The SSPX debate, for all the ecclesiology, is an issue of trust. Not that that does not have to do with charity, it does, but at some point, two sides have to trust each other enough to put the knives down.
SSPX is worried that theyāll get a bait-and-switch. Rome is worried that they will let these chaps back in, and immediately have to deal with a rear-guard action against everything that isnāt set out in a Latin illuminated manuscript and triple sealed in red wax.
I wonder if anyone else here saw the āName of the Rose,ā and liked it (minus one scene) as much as I did. The hero, of course, is a Franciscan. At the beginning, when he arrives at the monastery, at which he knows there are many who disaprove of his philosophy, he nonetheless exchanges the kiss of peace with the abbot. Itās an actual embrace, and kiss. Just like in the old pictures from the middle ages.
I think that our prelates should still do this. It might help keep things in perspective.
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OraLabora
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The monks at the abbey I am affiliated with give each other the kiss of peace at every Mass at the Sign of Peace. So it still happens in some places! Itās very touching to see, because they do it with such evident joy.
I used to hateā¦ I still doā¦ the sign of the peace at Mass, mainly because I am one of those people who hates to have his personal space invaded by anyone other than my wife! But seeing the monks and their joy made me rethink the Sign of Peace. I still hate itā¦ it takes me out of my comfort zone, but then I realized thatās exactly what God wantsā¦ that we get out of our comfort zones. How can we exercise Christian charity from within our comfort zones? Did the missionaries or martyrs stay in their comfort zones? No, they experience great sacrifice.
I think thatās a point that everyone on both sides of the EF vs OF debates should reflect on. We should leave our respective comfort zones and strive to foster a sense of shared focus on the elements that do bind us, in particular Jesus made present in the Eucharist, and from the otherās perspective.
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TimothyH
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Hi Denise;
No, I donāt concern myself with such things and had honestly never considered whether the Church was right or wrong about such things. It never occured to me to question whether the Church is right or wrong about such things. Please do not read too much into my comments.
My comments were about those who consider the Mass to be the end-all of following Christ, when Christ himself said that how we treat each other is to take precidence over worship itself. When I see someone driven to rage over liturgical abuses as one poster in another thread said he was, and when I see someone driven to hate one form of the Mass over another or be against one form of the Mass over another, and when I see someone who is bothered by people who go to one form of the Mass over another, I see a person who has an incorrect view of what worship is and what it means to God, as communicated to us through Jesus Christ himself.
Thatās all Iām saying. Itās like a baseball fan who canāt love his team without hating the other team. Why not love the sport of baseball itself, and be a fan or your team, and not hate any team? Thatās all Iām saying.
I just found out that there is an FSSP parish about 45 mintues away from me and might go down there next week to check it out. It will be the first for me. But I know that that as a Christian, I could have a private Mass with the Holy Father himself and all I have done is met my minimum requirement as a Christian to offer worship to God - I have barely fulfilled the first commandment.
-Tim-
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Warrenton
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promethius
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??? The greeting portion of the liturgy predates Christianity itself and is included in the first recordings of observations on the mass. Where did you arrive at the conclusion that it āhas no place in Christian worshipā? (or are you asserting that the greeting should be present but should be limited to a kiss of peace?)
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Warrenton
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Like I said, I am not for banning things!
The handshake, however, has lost whatever Christian content it might once of had, if it ever had any.
It should either be a kiss, and an embrace, or it should be verbally ritualized.
It is significant that none of the Orthodox masses have a handshaking session.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Addressing the last first, I donāt know where you go to Mass, but I rarely see what the Church would call an abuse at an OF Massā¦I see things that many ātraditionalistsā might regard as an abuse, but not the Church (āknowing what I knowā).
āIām tired of Catholics not attending the Latin Massāā¦how to put this politely? Has it occured to you that what you prefer or donāt prefer, what youāre enthused over or ātired ofā might not be on any oneās radar, but your own?
Iāve often thought that the EFās worst enemies were apparently her own devoteesā¦because Iāve run into very few with whom Iād want to spend any time at all or whose attitudes are what I would wish to emulate.
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Mike30
Guest
The above story was first circulated by Martin Luther. e claimed that during a visit to Rome he saw this practice as well as other abuses occur daily. Over and overā¦Her even took it further and said they ran competitions all day long and the loser had to pay for the nights activities at the bordello. He also attacked the use of Latin in the Mass and claimed as do many on this forum that the Priests merely mouthed unintelligible garble and mocked the consecration by saying things like bread thou art and bread thou will remain.
No proof was ever offered of any of these stories and they took took olives of their own, living until today. They and others like them often quoted in what usually appears as an attempt to justify or excuse abuses in the OF abuses since they also occurred in the Traditional Mass,.
Iām not saying things like these never happened. They may have. I don.t know. What I do know is that I never saw anything even approaching those levels in all my years as an altar boy back in the old days
What I am saying it might be a prudent idea to consider the original source of the rumors and his motivations in starting them.
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Pfaffenhoffen
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Remember, we are Universal Church.
Catholic, ok?
Latin Mass means nothing in Africa (where the Chruch is growing faster), India, China, Japan, South America.
The problems in Roman Catholics Africa, India and China, which make 3/4 of the world population are how to make the liturgy more meaning to them, to their culture. I tell you some examples:
- in china, white is the color of mourning, of death. The Clothes ( what are their names?) in the altar should be red, which would make you shiver but it is the color the brides use. The chinese bow, do not kneel, and their song style is completely different.
- In Africa, silence, is death. Africans sing and dance all the time. The homily is shared with emphasis on the responses of the assembly. Put Latin masses in Africa and you would see sleeping audiences.
- South America relies on feelings. The Evangelicals are growing imensely. You need to address that and the fact that there should be spanish and portuguese liturgical music renovation, they cannot get stuck on the Latin. Do that and the Evangelicals will take the whole Latin America.
- And so on. I could elaborate more, but it is enough.
Who am I to contradict? I am noone. Just I want to emphasize, at the size of my limitations, that you must be aware why do you go to the Eucharisty. 2 examples:
- a friend of mine who was consul in Moscow said to me that a lady he knew converted to Orthodoxy for the beauty of Orthodox Liturgy. Now, Orthodox Liturgy is āwawā and it was good that she went to a Church as she did not go to any one. But sometime she will have to choose: do I go to the Church for Music and the Beauty of Liturgy or for Jesus Christ?
- In Barocq times, The Chorus sang for 2 hours and the priest made 1 hour long sermons. That all disappeared even in Latin. You need to keep it simple. Sometimes the chorus was singing the sillabe (how is written?) āSanā from the word āSanctusā for 5 minutes (exagerating), without any progress in thought and emphasis. The āAmenā could last for times and times and later composers and liturgists found Barocq musicā¦Barocq, just not suitable for mass anymore. Now, it is sung in Concerts. Beautiful they are, Bach, handel and so on, but they are concerts. Again. Eucharisty is Jesus Christ.
ābetterā than the English Mass is not at all acceptable.
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TrueLight
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OraLabora
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Africa has far more pressing issues than accepting the EF Mass that require our prayers.
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