Does you love for the EF make you anti OF unintentionally?

[TrueLight]

Africa has far more pressing issues than accepting the EF Mass that require our prayers.

Yes, yes I know. I didn’t mean to imply that it doesn’t. We’re talking about the OF and the EF.

And if the FSSP can help spiritually, then Glory to God.

 

[PontifexMaximus]

Africa has far more pressing issues than accepting the EF Mass that require our prayers.

Non sequitur: Africa has problems, therefore the TLM should not be promoted there.

 

[ProVobis]

One can only pray.

FSSP in Africa

Interestingly enough in the early centuries the Latin Mass flourished the fastest in Africa.

Of course, Africa is a huge continent and covers many cultures so that doesn’t necessarily say much today.

 

[TrueLight]

Interestingly enough in the early centuries the Latin Mass fluorished the fastest in Africa.

Of course, Africa is a huge continent so that doesn’t necessarily say much today.

Yes. I really can’t speak for other countries/continents, but I’m pretty sure the EF can flourish on the African continent because of the mystery, rituals etc.

 

[malphono]

Yes. I really can’t speak for other countries/continents, but I’m pretty sure the EF can flourish on the African continent because of the mystery, rituals etc.

With a little tweaking, it probably can. Actually it did, at least for a while. I would suspect that language is less of an issue than is music. And in Sub-Saharan Africa, Gregorian Chant is alien. The same, of course, would apply to other places, particularly East Asia.

I’m reminded of the famous Missa Luba (from the then Congo-Belge), the recordings of which were published in the early '60s. The missionaries didn’t go so far as to attempt to adapt (or “inculturate”) the rites themselves, but what they did was put the Latin text of at least the Ordinary to a local musical style. The adaptation seems to have worked, and one would think that it forms a model of how the Roman Mass could be presented in places where the culture does not have a particularly “Western” background.

 

[TrueLight]

With a little tweaking, it probably can. Actually it did, at least for a while. I would suspect that language is less of an issue than is music. And in Sub-Saharan Africa, Gregorian Chant is alien. The same, of course, would apply to other places, particularly East Asia.

I’m reminded of the famous Missa Luba (from the then Congo-Belge), the recordings of which were published in the early '60s. The missionaries didn’t go so far as to attempt to adapt (or “inculturate”) the rites themselves, but what they did was put the Latin text of at least the Ordinary to a local musical style. The adaptation seems to have worked, and one would think that it forms a model of how the Roman Mass could be presented in places where the culture does not have a particularly “Western” background.

Do you have a link to that by any chance?

 

[Servus_Rosarium]

Isn’t the Mass that something which everyone can recognize as Catholic? No matter what language the liturgy is in, no matter where you are in the planet, you would recognize a Catholic Mass if you’d see one.

I was watching the local news the other night and there was a reel of the elevation during Mass. It was an interesting story so I checked for further details on the internet and due to the repeated mentions of ‘the Church’ I naturally assumed it was a Catholic Church.

It was the Church of England and one of their services…

 

[ProVobis]

Latin Mass means nothing in Africa (where the Chruch is growing faster), India, China, Japan, South America.
The problems in Roman Catholics Africa, India and China, which make 3/4 of the world population are how to make the liturgy more meaning to them, to their culture.

You can’t assume these people are resistant to the Latin Mass as those in the U.S. or Europe, where the resistance seems to be built into the culture. Many of the people in the countries mentioned are better educated and bi- and tri-lingual and may be more open than you think.

 

[malphono]

Do you have a link to that by any chance?

Do a google on “Missa Luba” … you should get quite a few hits.

 

[OraLabora]

Interestingly enough in the early centuries the Latin Mass flourished the fastest in Africa.

Of course in those days many African nations were colonies of European nations and had European culture imposed on them. I suspect for them to go back to the EF Mass in Latin might bring back unhappy memories of colonial times.

In any case we shouldn’t try to suppose that we know what’s good for Africans. That’s for Africans to figure out. There is a Benedictine abbey of our congregation in Senegal (Keur Moussa). Unlike most monasteries of our congregation (Solesmes) they don’t use Gregorian chant, they use music closer to their traditions, and they use traditional instruments, namely the kora. It works for them. It wouldn’t work for me, as my cultural tradition of the Mass is definitely Gregorian. But I wouldn’t want to impose it on them.

 

[Hadrianus]

I went to a Requiem Latin Mass yesterday for All Souls Day and it was beautiful and reverant as you might expect. The problem is that only 20+ people were there. This was a 5:30 pm Mass at a big parish.

I went to another parish about 10 miles away afterwards because they had Confession going on there. As it turns out they had a Novus Ordo Mass there at the same time which started at 6:30 I presume. It had 300-400 in attendance by my count. So fairly large. So that means the Catholics are coming out but just not to the EF.

I’m tired of Catholics not attending the Latin Mass. It seems like so many of them do not even give it consideration even when it is available. The congregation for the Latin Mass at my parish at 12:30 pm is always a fraction of the congregation that shows up for the 10:30 am OF

I’m 32 years old and for the first 30 years of my life, the Novus Ordo is all I ever knew existed. Once I discovered the EF early last year, I feel in love with it instantly and never went back. But I have sort of become anti-Novus Ordo in the process, which I know is not a good thing because Jesus is still present there. Although that might be the only thing that is keeping me from being such a lover of the EF that I end up becoming anti-OF. Still I know that misinterpretations of Vatican II especially when it comes to the NO Liturgy has caused many Catholics to fall out of Communion with the Church and the Pope of Rome. So knowing what I know now, I can’t help but be weary of the NO and how priests and laity act and behave.

Let’s just look at the times here. 10.30 and 6.30 are much more convenient times for most people than 12.30 and 5.30. Most Catholics work mass around their daily routine and obligations. A 12.30 mass pretty well eliminates families, and a 5.30 mass is often inconvenient for people who have afternoon activities, furthermore All Souls day is a work day for most people.5.30 is just too early, 6.30 is often workable. 7 even better. Put an EF mass on a Sunday morning and you will get a much more accurate impression of interest. Wherever I have been to an EF mass on a Sunday morning between 9.30 and 11,30 the Church has been packed.

 

[JReducation]

The above story was first circulated by Martin Luther. e claimed that during a visit to Rome he saw this practice as well as other abuses occur daily. Over and over…Her even took it further and said they ran competitions all day long and the loser had to pay for the nights activities at the bordello. He also attacked the use of Latin in the Mass and claimed as do many on this forum that the Priests merely mouthed unintelligible garble and mocked the consecration by saying things like bread thou art and bread thou will remain.

No proof was ever offered of any of these stories and they took took olives of their own, living until today. They and others like them often quoted in what usually appears as an attempt to justify or excuse abuses in the OF abuses since they also occurred in the Traditional Mass,.

I’m not saying things like these never happened. They may have. I don.t know. What I do know is that I never saw anything even approaching those levels in all my years as an altar boy back in the old days

What I am saying it might be a prudent idea to consider the original source of the rumors and his motivations in starting them.

This did happen. There are older priests alive from the 1950s who still remember.

That being said, you can’t take Luther’s report the same way. We don’t really know how accurately Luther reported it and how much of his report was embellished.

While this may have been an abuse, one must also put it into proper context. The priests involved were not thinking abuse. They were teasing each other. They ignorantly thought that this was humorous, not that the mass was humorous, but the speed at which some of them could get through it.

We can’t deny something that happened. But we should never add to it either. The men whom I have known, obviously older men, do not have a malicious bone in their body. They thought it was funny.

Of course you would not hear this as I would. There is a great deal about which we speak to each other, but not to the laity, because people won’t understand the context. Not understanding the context can lead to scandal where there should be none.

I’ve always said that the world of the clergy and religious has its own sense of humor. Some of it, in retrospect, is not funny. But at the time, those involved meant no harm. They should not be judged according to our understanding. Hopefully, we can look at people in their context.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

While this may have been an abuse, one must also put it into proper context. The priests involved were not thinking abuse. They were teasing each other. They ignorantly thought that this was humorous, not that the mass was humorous, but the speed at which some of them could get through it.

Surely some credit must go to the servers, for if they were slow with their responses or movements, such records would not have been possible.

 

[ProVobis]

I was watching the local news the other night and there was a reel of the elevation during Mass. It was an interesting story so I checked for further details on the internet and due to the repeated mentions of ‘the Church’ I naturally assumed it was a Catholic Church.

It was the Church of England and one of their services…

Same thing here. Was invited to my colleague’s wedding at a Vietnamese Church. It certainly looked Catholic but later to my embarrassment I found out it was Baptist. Not only that but when I asked I got a lots of anti-Catholic diatribe from the groom.

 

[Warrenton]

Of course in those days many African nations were colonies of European nations and had European culture imposed on them. I suspect for them to go back to the EF Mass in Latin might bring back unhappy memories of colonial times.

If that’s the way it’s going to be addressed, then maybe Christianity in general brings just brings back “unhappy memories.”

This kind of thinking fails to credit African people from distinguishing between military rule and the Roman Catholic Church.

Under that logic, no one ever would have sung Roman chant, except Romans, since the Gauls and Britons and Spanish “would have unhappy memories” of Vincengetorix, Boudica and other Roman victories.

Under that logic, we may as well just give up and let the “culturally tolerant” Muslins win. Of course, this begs the question why Muslim converts are also increasing in Africa. Maybe Muslims just got lucky and found the Africans who don’t like their native language?

 

[JReducation]

Surely some credit must go to the servers, for if they were slow with their responses or movements, such records would not have been possible.

Now THAT’S funny.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[jmj1984]

Remember, we are Universal Church.
Catholic, ok?
Latin Mass means nothing in Africa (where the Chruch is growing faster), India, China, Japan, South America.
The problems in Roman Catholics Africa, India and China, which make 3/4 of the world population are how to make the liturgy more meaning to them, to their culture. I tell you some examples:

• in china, white is the color of mourning, of death. The Clothes ( what are their names?) in the altar should be red, which would make you shiver but it is the color the brides use. The chinese bow, do not kneel, and their song style is completely different.
• In Africa, silence, is death. Africans sing and dance all the time. The homily is shared with emphasis on the responses of the assembly. Put Latin masses in Africa and you would see sleeping audiences.
• South America relies on feelings. The Evangelicals are growing imensely. You need to address that and the fact that there should be spanish and portuguese liturgical music renovation, they cannot get stuck on the Latin. Do that and the Evangelicals will take the whole Latin America.
• And so on. I could elaborate more, but it is enough.

Who am I to contradict? I am noone. Just I want to emphasize, at the size of my limitations, that you must be aware why do you go to the Eucharisty. 2 examples:

• a friend of mine who was consul in Moscow said to me that a lady he knew converted to Orthodoxy for the beauty of Orthodox Liturgy. Now, Orthodox Liturgy is “waw” and it was good that she went to a Church as she did not go to any one. But sometime she will have to choose: do I go to the Church for Music and the Beauty of Liturgy or for Jesus Christ?
• In Barocq times, The Chorus sang for 2 hours and the priest made 1 hour long sermons. That all disappeared even in Latin. You need to keep it simple. Sometimes the chorus was singing the sillabe (how is written?) “San” from the word “Sanctus” for 5 minutes (exagerating), without any progress in thought and emphasis. The “Amen” could last for times and times and later composers and liturgists found Barocq music…Barocq, just not suitable for mass anymore. Now, it is sung in Concerts. Beautiful they are, Bach, handel and so on, but they are concerts. Again. Eucharisty is Jesus Christ.

Again, I am not against the Latin Mass. I love Latin, as I said. But to consider Latin Mass
“better” than the English Mass is not at all acceptable.

Except of course The Church converted the whole of South America with the Latin mass and the traditional latin sacraments (indeed they were probably the original tridentine sacraments), gained an immense foothold in Africa with it and the same applies to Japan, China, Asia and in fact every continent.

Sorry but if any of the things you said were true The Church simply wouldn’t exist outside of Europe and North America, but it has done for hundreds of years and for hundreds of years, South Americans, Africans and Asians worshipped and prayed and sang in Latin. No rhetoric or argument is going to change that fact.

 

[jmj1984]

With a little tweaking, it probably can. Actually it did, at least for a while. I would suspect that language is less of an issue than is music. And in Sub-Saharan Africa, Gregorian Chant is alien. The same, of course, would apply to other places, particularly East Asia.

I’m reminded of the famous Missa Luba (from the then Congo-Belge), the recordings of which were published in the early '60s. The missionaries didn’t go so far as to attempt to adapt (or “inculturate”) the rites themselves, but what they did was put the Latin text of at least the Ordinary to a local musical style. The adaptation seems to have worked, and one would think that it forms a model of how the Roman Mass could be presented in places where the culture does not have a particularly “Western” background.

It can and did without any tweaking just as it did in South America and Asia and with the FSSP, ICKSP and SSPX still does, the latter I believe have apostolates in all the continents of the world, the FSSP has in Africa, Europe and the Americas and the ICKSP in Africa, America and Europe.

 

[jmj1984]

Priests who served religious houses often abused the religious. The religious would approach the priest for Holy Communion and the priest would nod, “No”. They would be deprived of Holy Communion for weeks. These religious were not public sinners. Often, these were priests who were on power trips. The religious were bound by a vow of obedience and they had no other mass except the conventual mass. It was easy for any priest on a power trip to abuse their control over the Eucharist. Finally, the Church had to intervene and prohibit this practice.

Br Jr,

I’m probably missing something here, but what does this have to do with the TLM?

 

[Warrenton]

It can and did without any tweaking just as it did in South America and Asia and with the FSSP, ICKSP and SSPX still does, the latter I believe have apostolates in all the continents of the world, the FSSP has in Africa, Europe and the Americas and the ICKSP in Africa, America and Europe.

A friend on mine has a brother who is a priest with the SSPX. His brother is in Mexico now.